Author Topic: Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.  (Read 66848 times)

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JaronK

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Re: Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.
« Reply #160 on: January 18, 2011, 01:11:49 AM »
Yeah, it's weird, but touch isn't viable for Persistant Spell.  Quite pesky sometimes.

I've always considered Paladins to be high T5, by the way.  Their various codes that restrict them (and the party they're with) tend to offset many of the advantages they have, and MAD hurts them quite a bit compared to other melees.  It makes it hard for them to find a good spot.

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lans

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Re: Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.
« Reply #161 on: January 18, 2011, 01:34:16 AM »
I figure we're debating High T5-Normal T4, with the most likely outcome of it staying or being Low T4.

Paladins get a ton of options, but very slim pickings. Gestalt them with fighter and add paladin options to the feat selection, and I think they would make T3

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Re: Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.
« Reply #162 on: January 18, 2011, 02:28:24 AM »
Other classes to compare it to-
Equalish
Swashbuckler
Soulknife
Knight
Soulborn
Strictly superior to the Soulknife and Knight.  Swashbuckler is a strictly superior charger on foot than the Paladin, and can also support the party with mobility-based skills.  Soulborn is strictly superior to the Paladin (funny thing to say, I know, but it's true).

Paladin might be better than these in a case by case basis. He can easily be better than a Hexblade, and due to Drizzt fanboys, the Ranger.

Paladin is geared toward mounted charging, Rangers are geared toward TWF 3/5ths of the time. Though Rangers get awesome spells, and skills to compensate.
He is easily not better than a Hexblade.  Hexblades get familiars, and that familiar is better than all of the Paladin's class abilities put together, including the Mount.  If a Hexblade wanted a special mount, he could grab a Hippogriff familiar and rock out HARD with a 100' fly speed at level 7.

Paladins are also not better than the Ranger.  The Ranger's Animal Companion, although kinda gimped relative to the Druid, is still at least as good as the Paladin's Mount.  The Ranger also has, as you said, a battery of skill options from a very awesome list and also a strictly superior spell list.  Combat Style helps ease any kind of feat crunch, especially given that the bonus Archery feats, Mounted Combat feat line, and animal companion all synergize together very well.  If a Ranger player works with the DM and gets campaign-appropriate Favored Enemies, then the Ranger does become strictly superior to Paladins as well.

lans

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Re: Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.
« Reply #163 on: January 18, 2011, 04:24:38 PM »
Other classes to compare it to-
Equalish
Swashbuckler
Soulknife
Knight
Soulborn
Strictly superior to the Soulknife and Knight.  Swashbuckler is a strictly superior charger on foot than the Paladin, and can also support the party with mobility-based skills.  Soulborn is strictly superior to the Paladin (funny thing to say, I know, but it's true).
I consider Soulborns to be flat out inerior to paladins, but I would like to hear why you think they are better.
Swashbucklers only make good chargers if you play against type, they are kind of finesse fighters, which to me means that they aren't going to be shock troopering all that often.

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Paladin might be better than these in a case by case basis. He can easily be better than a Hexblade, and due to Drizzt fanboys, the Ranger.

Paladin is geared toward mounted charging, Rangers are geared toward TWF 3/5ths of the time. Though Rangers get awesome spells, and skills to compensate.
He is easily not better than a Hexblade.  Hexblades get familiars, and that familiar is better than all of the Paladin's class abilities put together, including the Mount.  If a Hexblade wanted a special mount, he could grab a Hippogriff familiar and rock out HARD with a 100' fly speed at level 7.
Can you go into details on how the familer is better?

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Paladins are also not better than the Ranger.  The Ranger's Animal Companion, although kinda gimped relative to the Druid, is still at least as good as the Paladin's Mount.  The Ranger also has, as you said, a battery of skill options from a very awesome list and also a strictly superior spell list.  Combat Style helps ease any kind of feat crunch, especially given that the bonus Archery feats, Mounted Combat feat line, and animal companion all synergize together very well.  If a Ranger player works with the DM and gets campaign-appropriate Favored Enemies, then the Ranger does become strictly superior to Paladins as well.
I think the Paladins Mount is better than the AC,
I'm using a quick straight comparison here.
12 HD heavy warhorse vs 9HD heavy horse. +10 Natural Armor vs 6. 4 Strength vs 3 Str/Dex. Bonus Tricks vs Intellegence. Spell resistance, share saving throws, command own kind, improved evasion vs Devotion, Multi Attack and evasion.
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ninjarabbit

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Re: Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.
« Reply #164 on: January 18, 2011, 05:56:59 PM »
A hexblade has a wide wide choice for improved familars: imp, winter wolf, hippogriff, salt mephits, earth and air elementals, howlers, and many more.

Some familiars like earth elementals and salt mephits have the power attack feat which works nicely with sharing the hexblade's full BAB. Many familiars have special abilities and SLAs which are tremendous like an imp's alternate form ability. Familiars share your skill ranks so they will have your ranks in intimidate and diplomacy. Familars give you a whole another set of actions so you and your familar can intimdate each in a round or any other combination of actions. Familars can also share equipment and not to mention share spell with spells like polymorph and mirror image. One more minor thing is that a familiar can deliver touch attack spells and the hexblade has a few on his list like vampiric touch and touch of idiocy.

In short familiars basically give you another mini-character who can synergize greatly with your hexblade.

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Re: Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.
« Reply #165 on: January 18, 2011, 06:45:11 PM »
I think the Paladins Mount is better than the AC,
I'm using a quick straight comparison here.
12 HD heavy warhorse vs 9HD heavy horse. +10 Natural Armor vs 6. 4 Strength vs 3 Str/Dex. Bonus Tricks vs Intellegence. Spell resistance, share saving throws, command own kind, improved evasion vs Devotion, Multi Attack and evasion.

Ah, but the ranger has a much wider range of selectable companions, doesn't suffer so much if the companion dies, and gets it a level earlier.
The ranges AC doesn't scale as well as the paladin's mount but since you can swap it for a different type that is more appropriate to your level.
Overall I think it goes to the AC, they might be more fragile, but also much more expendable (-1 to att/dmg for a month? And without a replacement mount during that time? what where they thinking? Getting the animal back the next day is a much better deal.)
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ninjarabbit

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Re: Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.
« Reply #166 on: January 18, 2011, 07:50:54 PM »
A ranger can take the natural bond feat to boost his AC. A ranger20's AC with the natural bond feat get bonuses that are as good/slightly better than a paladin20's mount: the main difference being the mount gets +2 natural armor and the AC gets +4 dex.

But the flexibility the ranger's AC gets outweighs anything else the mount brings to the table.

lans

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Re: Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.
« Reply #167 on: January 18, 2011, 08:43:06 PM »
A ranger can take the natural bond feat to boost his AC. A ranger20's AC with the natural bond feat get bonuses that are as good/slightly better than a paladin20's mount: the main difference being the mount gets +2 natural armor and the AC gets +4 dex.
A 20th level Ranger with the Natural Bond feat is just now qualifing for the wombat the paladin got at 5th. Want me to compare the two?
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ninjarabbit

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Re: Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.
« Reply #168 on: January 18, 2011, 09:14:40 PM »
A ranger can take the natural bond feat to boost his AC. A ranger20's AC with the natural bond feat get bonuses that are as good/slightly better than a paladin20's mount: the main difference being the mount gets +2 natural armor and the AC gets +4 dex.
A 20th level Ranger with the Natural Bond feat is just now qualifing for the wombat the paladin got at 5th. Want me to compare the two?

One specific ACF isn't enough to redeem it. Heck you can have a unicorn mount too at level 5 via the elf racial subsitution.

But I prefer the flexibility of an AC. If I want a grappler I can go with a giant crocidile or brown bear, if I want a tripper I can have wolf/dire wolf, if I want a pouncer I can use any of the big cats or any of the raptor-like dinosaurs, if I want poison I can have a viper or any other poisonous animal, I have plenty of options if I simply want a durable mount, and I can go on. And I can change my options with 24 hours of prep time if one dies or I decide I don't want it anymore.

lans

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Re: Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.
« Reply #169 on: January 18, 2011, 09:59:07 PM »
A ranger can take the natural bond feat to boost his AC. A ranger20's AC with the natural bond feat get bonuses that are as good/slightly better than a paladin20's mount: the main difference being the mount gets +2 natural armor and the AC gets +4 dex.
A 20th level Ranger with the Natural Bond feat is just now qualifing for the wombat the paladin got at 5th. Want me to compare the two?

One specific ACF isn't enough to redeem it. Heck you can have a unicorn mount too at level 5 via the elf racial subsitution.
Not really an ACF any more than animals getting added to the AC list are.


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But I prefer the flexibility of an AC. If I want a grappler I can go with a giant crocidile or brown bear, if I want a tripper I can have wolf/dire wolf, if I want a pouncer I can use any of the big cats or any of the raptor-like dinosaurs, if I want poison I can have a viper or any other poisonous animal, I have plenty of options if I simply want a durable mount, and I can go on. And I can change my options with 24 hours of prep time if one dies or I decide I don't want it anymore.
Are those actually good at what your having them do for the level you get them?
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Re: Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.
« Reply #170 on: January 18, 2011, 11:34:54 PM »
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But I prefer the flexibility of an AC. If I want a grappler I can go with a giant crocidile or brown bear, if I want a tripper I can have wolf/dire wolf, if I want a pouncer I can use any of the big cats or any of the raptor-like dinosaurs, if I want poison I can have a viper or any other poisonous animal, I have plenty of options if I simply want a durable mount, and I can go on. And I can change my options with 24 hours of prep time if one dies or I decide I don't want it anymore.
Are those actually good at what your having them do for the level you get them?
Having seen them in action, yes. Very much so.
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Re: Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.
« Reply #171 on: January 19, 2011, 12:29:20 AM »
Other classes to compare it to-
Equalish
Swashbuckler
Soulknife
Knight
Soulborn
Strictly superior to the Soulknife and Knight.  Swashbuckler is a strictly superior charger on foot than the Paladin, and can also support the party with mobility-based skills.  Soulborn is strictly superior to the Paladin (funny thing to say, I know, but it's true).
I consider Soulborns to be flat out inerior to paladins, but I would like to hear why you think they are better.
Swashbucklers only make good chargers if you play against type, they are kind of finesse fighters, which to me means that they aren't going to be shock troopering all that often.
Swashbucklers can charge across difficult terrain, how is that not skillful?  Power Attack is nigh-mandantory for every Swashbuckler since they're supposed to be a damage-dealing class, and Insightful Strike can be applied to a few two-handed weapons like the spiked chain and the courtblade.

As for Soulborns, the smite ability is plain better, the lack of Turn Undead is only somewhat troubling, since the Paladin doesn't make spectacular use of it, either.  They have substantially less MAD than Paladins, both because they don't have Wis-based Spellcasting and can actually function semi-competently as skilled characters without a high Intelligence score.  Further, starting at level 4 the Soulborn gains, as a class feature, access to soulmelds like Bluesteel Bracers (Initiative Bonus), Fearsome Mask (Gaze Attack), Mauling Gauntlets (Meldshaper's Improved Trip), Riding Bracers, Silvertongue Mask (two of the better skill soulmelds), and Thunderstep Boots (Possibly one of the better additions you can make to a charger, mounted or not).  That said, Soulborns are Tier 5.  They really don't do anything as well as classes like Warlocks, Hexblades, or Rangers.

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Paladin might be better than these in a case by case basis. He can easily be better than a Hexblade, and due to Drizzt fanboys, the Ranger.

Paladin is geared toward mounted charging, Rangers are geared toward TWF 3/5ths of the time. Though Rangers get awesome spells, and skills to compensate.
He is easily not better than a Hexblade.  Hexblades get familiars, and that familiar is better than all of the Paladin's class abilities put together, including the Mount.  If a Hexblade wanted a special mount, he could grab a Hippogriff familiar and rock out HARD with a 100' fly speed at level 7.
Can you go into details on how the familer is better?
Sure.  Better BAB, shared skill points (although the Hexblade's list obviously isn't that great), often an ability to speak (and therefore use magic items), and with Improved Familiar it gains the bonus that it can serve pretty much any purpose the Hexblade wants it to.

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Paladins are also not better than the Ranger.  The Ranger's Animal Companion, although kinda gimped relative to the Druid, is still at least as good as the Paladin's Mount.  The Ranger also has, as you said, a battery of skill options from a very awesome list and also a strictly superior spell list.  Combat Style helps ease any kind of feat crunch, especially given that the bonus Archery feats, Mounted Combat feat line, and animal companion all synergize together very well.  If a Ranger player works with the DM and gets campaign-appropriate Favored Enemies, then the Ranger does become strictly superior to Paladins as well.
I think the Paladins Mount is better than the AC,
I'm using a quick straight comparison here.
12 HD heavy warhorse vs 9HD heavy horse. +10 Natural Armor vs 6. 4 Strength vs 3 Str/Dex. Bonus Tricks vs Intellegence. Spell resistance, share saving throws, command own kind, improved evasion vs Devotion, Multi Attack and evasion.
Like others have said, it doesn't have to be a horse.  You could ride a dire wolf if you wanted, and aside from your own lance attack the Wolf adds a pretty vicious bite and might trip them as well.

lans

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Re: Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.
« Reply #172 on: January 19, 2011, 01:09:06 AM »
Other classes to compare it to-
Equalish
Swashbuckler
Soulknife
Knight
Soulborn
Strictly superior to the Soulknife and Knight.  Swashbuckler is a strictly superior charger on foot than the Paladin, and can also support the party with mobility-based skills.  Soulborn is strictly superior to the Paladin (funny thing to say, I know, but it's true).
I consider Soulborns to be flat out inerior to paladins, but I would like to hear why you think they are better.
Swashbucklers only make good chargers if you play against type, they are kind of finesse fighters, which to me means that they aren't going to be shock troopering all that often.
Swashbucklers can charge across difficult terrain, how is that not skillful?  Power Attack is nigh-mandantory for every Swashbuckler since they're supposed to be a damage-dealing class, and Insightful Strike can be applied to a few two-handed weapons like the spiked chain and the courtblade.
Its the Power attacking thats not finesse. Swashbucklers get a awesome ability for charging. I had Insightful Strike confused with the Duelist ability.


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As for Soulborns, the smite ability is plain better, the lack of Turn Undead is only somewhat troubling, since the Paladin doesn't make spectacular use of it, either.  They have substantially less MAD than Paladins, both because they don't have Wis-based Spellcasting and can actually function semi-competently as skilled characters without a high Intelligence score.  Further, starting at level 4 the Soulborn gains, as a class feature, access to soulmelds like Bluesteel Bracers (Initiative Bonus), Fearsome Mask (Gaze Attack), Mauling Gauntlets (Meldshaper's Improved Trip), Riding Bracers, Silvertongue Mask (two of the better skill soulmelds), and Thunderstep Boots (Possibly one of the better additions you can make to a charger, mounted or not).  That said, Soulborns are Tier 5.  They really don't do anything as well as classes like Warlocks, Hexblades, or Rangers.
Soulborns lack the mount, divine grace, and lay on hands

Fearsome Mask only gives the gaze at level 14, Thunder step boots has a pretty poor save.
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Paladin might be better than these in a case by case basis. He can easily be better than a Hexblade, and due to Drizzt fanboys, the Ranger.

Paladin is geared toward mounted charging, Rangers are geared toward TWF 3/5ths of the time. Though Rangers get awesome spells, and skills to compensate.
He is easily not better than a Hexblade.  Hexblades get familiars, and that familiar is better than all of the Paladin's class abilities put together, including the Mount.  If a Hexblade wanted a special mount, he could grab a Hippogriff familiar and rock out HARD with a 100' fly speed at level 7.
Can you go into details on how the familer is better?
Sure.  Better BAB, shared skill points (although the Hexblade's list obviously isn't that great), often an ability to speak (and therefore use magic items), and with Improved Familiar it gains the bonus that it can serve pretty much any purpose the Hexblade wants it to.

BAB doesn't matter that much with animals, though you could give the mephit a spike chain I guess. Mounts can talk, its one of there abilities.
I'll give you the skills and customization.

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Paladins are also not better than the Ranger.  The Ranger's Animal Companion, although kinda gimped relative to the Druid, is still at least as good as the Paladin's Mount.  The Ranger also has, as you said, a battery of skill options from a very awesome list and also a strictly superior spell list.  Combat Style helps ease any kind of feat crunch, especially given that the bonus Archery feats, Mounted Combat feat line, and animal companion all synergize together very well.  If a Ranger player works with the DM and gets campaign-appropriate Favored Enemies, then the Ranger does become strictly superior to Paladins as well.
I think the Paladins Mount is better than the AC,
I'm using a quick straight comparison here.
12 HD heavy warhorse vs 9HD heavy horse. +10 Natural Armor vs 6. 4 Strength vs 3 Str/Dex. Bonus Tricks vs Intellegence. Spell resistance, share saving throws, command own kind, improved evasion vs Devotion, Multi Attack and evasion.
Like others have said, it doesn't have to be a horse.  You could ride a dire wolf if you wanted, and aside from your own lance attack the Wolf adds a pretty vicious bite and might trip them as well.
The paladins doesn't have to be a horse, it could be a riding dog, a hippogrif or a wombat. A wombat that can solo a CR 5 enemy when you get it.

I was just using the horse for a quick and fair comparison.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 01:10:46 AM by lans »
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Re: Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.
« Reply #173 on: January 19, 2011, 01:32:41 AM »
Soulborns lack the mount, divine grace, and lay on hands

Fearsome Mask only gives the gaze at level 14, Thunder step boots has a pretty poor save.
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Mundane Mounts are still cheap.  Divine Grace hurts.  Lay on Hands is a joke unless you really work to optimize it, and I mean above and beyond just grabbing the item in the MIC.  I also feel that I should emphasize that "has A LOT less MAD" bit.

The save on Thunderstep Boots is not necessarily bad at all.  It's Con based, so there's that, and if you're making a dedicated charger then you'll grab Improved Essentia Capacity for it as well.  Further, any source of Pounce will open up the option of forcing 4 saving throws, and stunning on any one failure.

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BAB doesn't matter that much with animals, though you could give the mephit a spike chain I guess. Mounts can talk, its one of there abilities.
I'll give you the skills and customization.
Most animals no.  Hexblade familiars, however, absolutely.  Hexblades get to share their Wraithstrikes with their Familiar, who then gets to PA for a ton of damage in it's own right.  Didn't know that mounts could talk, but they definitely don't have hands, while many Improved familiar options do.  With the shared skills, familiars also get UMD ranks.

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The paladins doesn't have to be a horse, it could be a riding dog, a hippogrif or a wombat. A wombat that can solo a CR 5 enemy when you get it.

I was just using the horse for a quick and fair comparison.
Still, by and large, quadropedal beasts of burden, although the Unicorn and Wombat are nice outliers.  Ranger options still dwarf the Paladin selection.

lans

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Re: Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.
« Reply #174 on: January 19, 2011, 03:48:41 AM »
Evil Soulborns can get a mount through the Necrocarnum zombie thing.
Not a huge fan of buying animals, but I'll concede that they are a better option than the Paladins mount.

Hexblades don't get wraith strike. Familiars are better than companions with a bit of effort.Edit They do have a pretty awesome spell list with Alter self, Contact Other Plane, Solid Fog, Polymorph, Suggestion
Which is way better than the Paladins cure variant 93

Rangers do get more options, but they don't get an OP option like the wombat.Edit- They do actually get it, but they get it at Druid level-12 where it should be, as opposed to the Paladins 5
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 03:58:04 AM by lans »
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Re: Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.
« Reply #175 on: January 19, 2011, 04:01:06 AM »
Evil Soulborns can get a mount through the Necrocarnum zombie thing.
Not a huge fan of buying animals, but I'll concede that they are a better option than the Paladins mount.

Hexblades don't get wraith strike. Familiars are better than companions with a bit of effort.Edit They do have a pretty awesome spell list with Alter self, Contact Other Plane, Solid Fog, Polymorph, Suggestion
Which is way better than the Paladins cure variant 93

Rangers do get more options, but they don't get an OP option like the wombat.Edit- They do actually get it, but they get it at Druid level-12 where it should be, as opposed to the Paladins 5
Aside from the battery of ways to cheese spells onto a spell list (...although I think Hexblades have surprisingly few of these), the Hexblade can UMD a wand of Wraithstrike and share that with his familiar.  A Wand Chamber in his sword will allow him to do so without juggling a bunch of different things between his hands.

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Re: Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.
« Reply #176 on: March 08, 2011, 05:20:19 PM »
Jaronk hasn't officially placed the Soulborn from MoI in a Tier that I've seen (I keep fearing that I've simply overlooked it a dozen times and will therefore look silly), but I figured it at Tier 5 and posted in the "Tier System for Classes" thread. It occurred to me it might have been more appropriate here, so I quoted my post:

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In what Tier would you put the Soulborn from Magic of Incarnum? I looked through the first post and I didn't see it. I think it's Tier 5, but have less optimization skill than many on these boards.

As for why I think it's Tier 5:

Due to their extremely limited meldshaping ability and barren class features, the Soulborn fits no role they don't choose and they must specialize a lot to fill that role even marginally well.

It has a single unique alignment-specific class feature of limited power, Incarnum Defense, the benefits of which are widely available from other sources. Almost all of those other sources are easier investments than two class levels (The level at which Soulborns acquire Incarnum Defense).

To appear fighter-like, the Soulborn gains a pathetic three bonus feats from a limited list.

The Soulborn is barely worthy of being considered a meldshaping class, since it must wait for FOURTH LEVEL before it can shape any soulmelds at all. Any other character who takes the Shape Soulmeld feat can shape soulmelds earlier, and in fact the Soulborn must wait even LONGER (6th level) to even get any essentia!

Also the Soulborn only has half of its soulborn levels count towards meldshaper level. What a slap in the face! A creature with no class levels has a higher meldshaper level than a Soulborn (MoI, pg. 53-54).

In addition to the above, the Soulborn gets very few unique soulmelds. In fact, you can get the Soulborn-exclusive soulmelds before the Soulborn with the Shape Soulmeld feat. If ever there was a class that needed a doctor, this is it.

Of the five Soulborn-exclusive Soulmelds I counted (Fearsome Mask, Gloves of the Poisoned Soul, Mauling Gauntlets, Soulspeaker Circlet, and Thunderstep Boots), maybe 2 out of 5 are worth anything. The best ones might be worth the feats to use them but they're definitely not worth the four Soulborn levels to use.

Fearsome Mask: A good intimidate-booster that is probably easily replaced (It gives an insight bonus). The gaze attack would be good, but there are a few hiccups named SR, fear, mind-affecting, and will save. IF your enemy is vulnerable to fear and mind-affecting while also possessing no SR (remember the Soulborn uses half their levels for meldshaper level, so you're never overoming anyone's SR) and an abysmal will save then MAYBE you'll scare them.

Gloves of the Poisoned Soul: These give you a pretty good poison. Too bad it allows a save, thereby depleting a lot of its use.

Mauling Gauntlets: These are actually pretty good, although still not amazing.

Soulspeaker Circlet: The throat bind gives you telepathy without calling it telepathy, so a stingy GM could deny you, but if they don't there's your ticket to Mindsight. Largely utility, I like that this soulmeld basically allows you to change your languages known from day-to-day. The problem is that you need the Crown bind to speak the languages. It's also pretty wonky that the throat bind gives you telepathy and the crown bind gives you the ability to speak languages, because it seems like they should be vice versa.

Thunderstep Boots: A wee bit of additional sonic damage on a charge. If you invested a lot into this soulmeld you might be doing an additional 7d4 - on a charge - at level 20. Get pounce and it might add up, but if you don't have pounce don't even think about it, ever. If you bind it to your feat you can stun someone - if they fail a fortitude save - if they're vulnerable to stunning.

Oh and they also get smite. Since they don't get it at will, it doesn't save the class. The 20th level class feature is a fifth smite per day.
I don't employ memes. Mass-produced ammunition, even from reputable manufacturers, tends to malfunction on occasion.

JaronK

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Re: Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.
« Reply #177 on: March 08, 2011, 05:59:10 PM »
As a note, I don't have MoI, which is why I haven't placed them (I feel it would be wrong to put them up there without looking at the class at all!).  But from what you're saying, that almost sounds CW Samurai levels of bad... which could put it at upper T6.

JaronK

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Re: Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.
« Reply #178 on: March 08, 2011, 06:04:37 PM »
As a note, I don't have MoI, which is why I haven't placed them (I feel it would be wrong to put them up there without looking at the class at all!).  But from what you're saying, that almost sounds CW Samurai levels of bad... which could put it at upper T6.

JaronK
They are more like core paladins in what they can do, he only listed the ones that were exclusive to the soulborn list.
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Re: Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.
« Reply #179 on: March 08, 2011, 06:25:17 PM »
Yeah, sorry I didn't go over each soulmeld they could shape. I was trying to point out the lack of unique class features. The melds I listed are exclusive to the Soulborn, other classes don't get them without the Shape Soulmeld feat.
I don't employ memes. Mass-produced ammunition, even from reputable manufacturers, tends to malfunction on occasion.