Author Topic: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook  (Read 216258 times)

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Akalsaris

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Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
« Reply #100 on: July 27, 2010, 03:15:59 AM »
*skims his copy of Champions of Ruin*

It's an interesting PrC.  Lots of solid abilities randomly thrown together, though the 3/4 BAB is very odd given that you're going to enter it as a ranger.  And with a 1-level dip in Contemplative for the right domain, you could use your divine casting to cast Minor Creation as well.  Arrowsplit also looks like a broken spell for poisons - turn a single (poisoned) arrow into 1d4+1 identical poisoned arrows!

Good find!

Ed-Zero

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Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
« Reply #101 on: August 01, 2010, 10:21:58 PM »
Oh man, finally the Advanced Player's Guide for Pathfinder came out and there are definitely some good news for poisoners here.

Alchemist:
Concentrate poison: The alchemist can combine two doses of the same poison to increase their effects. This requires two doses of the poison and 1 minute of concentration. When completed, the alchemist has one dose of poison. The poison’s frequency is extended by 50% and the save DC increases by +2. This poison must be used within 1 hour of its creation or it is ruined.

Sticky poison: Any poison the alchemist creates is sticky—when the alchemist applies it to a weapon, the weapon remains poisoned for a number of strikes equal to the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier. An alchemist must be at least 6th level before selecting this discovery.

Summoner:
Poison (Ex):
An eidolon secretes toxic venom, gaining a poison attack. Pick one bite or sting attack. Whenever the selected attack hits, the target is poisoned. Eidolon poison—type poison (injury); save Fort negates; frequency 1/round for 4 rounds; effect 1d4 Str damage; cure 1 save. The save DC is equal to 10 + 1/2 the eidolon’s HD + the eidolon’s Constitution modifier. For 2 additional evolution points, this poison deals Constitution damage instead. This poison can be used no more than once per round. The summoner must be at least 7th level before selecting this evolution.

Rogue:
Lasting Poison (Ex):
A rogue with this talent can apply poison to a weapon in such a way that it is effective for two successful attacks instead of one. The poison has a reduced effect, however, and saves made against the poison receive a +2 circumstance bonus. Applying poison in this way requires a full-round action, or a standard action if the rogue has the swift poison talent.

Master Poisoner (Ex): At 3rd level, a poisoner can use Craft (alchemy) to change the type of a poison. This requires 1 hour of work with an alchemist’s lab and a Craft (alchemy) skill check with a DC equal to the poison’s DC. If successful, the poison’s type changes to contact, ingested, inhaled, or injury. If the check fails, the poison is ruined. The poisoner also receives a bonus on Craft (alchemy) skill checks when working with poison equal to 1/2 her rogue level. This ability replaces trap sense.

Sorcerer:
Serpent’s Fang (Ex):
At 1st level, you can grow fangs as a free action. These fangs are treated as a natural weapon inflicting 1d4 points of damage plus your Strength modifier (1d3 if you are Small) plus poison (Bite—injury; save Fort DC 10 + 1/2 your sorcerer level + your
Constitution modifier; frequency 1/round for 6 rounds; effect 1 Con damage; cure 1 save). At 5th level, these fangs are considered magical for the purpose of overcoming DR and the poison damage increases to 1d2 Con. At 7th level, your poison requires 2 successful saves to cure. At 11th level, your poison damage increases to 1d4 Con. You can use your fangs for a number of rounds per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.
   To go along with Serpents Fang, here is the endcap ability for the Serpentine Bloodline:
Scaled Soul (Su): At 20th level, you gain the shapechanger subtype, and you can assume the form of a reptilian humanoid (as alter self) or snake of Diminutive to Huge size (as beast shape III) at will. You retain the power of speech and the ability to use somatic spell components when transformed. You also become immune to poison and paralysis. You may use serpent’s fang as often as desired, and you may choose to inflict damage to any ability score.

Feats:
Master Alchemist

Prerequisite: Craft (alchemy) 5 ranks.
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks, and you may create mundane alchemical items much more quickly than normal. When making poisons, you can create a number of doses equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum 1) at one time. These additional doses do not increase the time required, but they do increase the raw material cost. In addition, whenever you make alchemical items or poisons using Craft (alchemy), use the item’s gp value as its sp value when determining your progress (do not multiply the item’s gp cost by 10 to determine its sp cost).

Spells:
Accelerate Poison
- Probably my favorite
School transmutation; Level druid 2, ranger 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a thorn)
Range touch
Target creature touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Fortitude negates; Spell Resistance yes
You hasten the onset of poison in the target. If the poison normally has an onset time, its effects begin immediately. If the poison has no onset time, its frequency is doubled, requiring two saving throws and inflicting damage twice per round or minute, though its duration is halved. Accelerate poison does not change the cure condition for the poison. If the target is affected by more than one poison, you may choose which is affected if you administered the poison; otherwise, randomly determine which poison is affected.

I'll mention the Transmute Potion to Poison spell here just to say that it's rubbish. That is all.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2010, 04:26:10 PM by Ed-Zero »

InnaBinder

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Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
« Reply #102 on: August 01, 2010, 10:32:43 PM »
*skims his copy of Champions of Ruin*

It's an interesting PrC.  Lots of solid abilities randomly thrown together, though the 3/4 BAB is very odd given that you're going to enter it as a ranger.  And with a 1-level dip in Contemplative for the right domain, you could use your divine casting to cast Minor Creation as well.  Arrowsplit also looks like a broken spell for poisons - turn a single (poisoned) arrow into 1d4+1 identical poisoned arrows!

Good find!
Thanks.  I suspect the designer intended it to be entered with Ranger/Rogue or Ranger/Scout, justifying the lower BAB progression.  Either that, or it was created by pulling abilities from the bingo spinner.  ;)
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Akalsaris

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Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
« Reply #103 on: August 08, 2010, 06:44:51 AM »
I actually thought of adding a PF section since I play it as well (just played 2 sessions of it today!), but the rules for poison changed quite a bit, so I ended up not doing it.  But for any PF character interested in poisoning, the APG is definitely a must-buy :D

Ed-Zero

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Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
« Reply #104 on: August 09, 2010, 03:16:27 PM »
I actually thought of adding a PF section since I play it as well (just played 2 sessions of it today!), but the rules for poison changed quite a bit, so I ended up not doing it.  But for any PF character interested in poisoning, the APG is definitely a must-buy :D
What changed about them? I haven't seen anything in the new guide that changed them..

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Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
« Reply #105 on: August 09, 2010, 09:49:36 PM »
I actually thought of adding a PF section since I play it as well (just played 2 sessions of it today!), but the rules for poison changed quite a bit, so I ended up not doing it.  But for any PF character interested in poisoning, the APG is definitely a must-buy :D
What changed about them? I haven't seen anything in the new guide that changed them..
Everything. They deal damage each round for a set number of rounds based on the poison. The damage is weaker (on the scale of 1 point of damage each round, vs 1 die of damage immediate plus possible secondary type deal), and for nearly all the poisons, one successful save ends the effect. They get a save every round. That poison they failed their first save against? They took one damage from it. Next round, they succeed, and never have to worry about the other 5 rounds of damage they may have taken.

The DCs are lower, as well, for a lot of them. Multiple instances of a poison no longer require multiple saves, but now increase the DC for the single save you make each round, etc.

It's in the core rulebook in the DM section. "Afflictions" is the header they have them under, iirc.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
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Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Ed-Zero

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Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
« Reply #106 on: August 09, 2010, 10:42:01 PM »
Well now, just checked the pfsrd and was enlightened on their changes to poison. I would actually say their changes only made poisons stronger. DC's were the hardest thing to raise for poisons. That's why there's so many feats in 3rd party books that give just a +2. Minor creation up some black lotus extract. Dump 10 doses on your swords, dual wield and cut someone, that's a dc 30 x2. Not the easiest thing to save against low level. Heck, make a giant vat of black lotus and keep dipping them in there for incredibly high saves assuming 1 dip on counts as a dose. Then when your poison actually gets through, you'll be doing 2d6 con damage every round. To remedy the onset time I would enchant your weapons permanently with accelerate poison spell so any poison you hit someone with starts immediately.

I might even say that purple worm poison is stronger than black lotus extract when using the accelerate poison spell since it has no onset time, will require 3 saves per round and do 2d3 strength damage instead of con. Oh yeah, has a higher dc too.

To look at both poisons closer, in 6 rounds BLE will do 6d6 con if a saves are failed while PWP does 6d3 strength damage over 3 rounds. As before, BLE pretty much beats everything especially now that its easier to up the dc.

I am going to complain a little once more that we need to have something that bypasses immunity to poison. There should be a feat that says if you have a poison over 30 or 40 dc then it can bypass immunity or hit for half damage or something

McPoyo

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Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
« Reply #107 on: August 09, 2010, 10:55:11 PM »
You'd have to quickdraw multiple weapons for that, since you can't have morethan one doesat a time applied to a weapon.

And that's upper end. It weakened them for effect/gp.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Ed-Zero

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Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
« Reply #108 on: August 09, 2010, 11:01:27 PM »
You'd have to quickdraw multiple weapons for that, since you can't have morethan one doesat a time applied to a weapon.

And that's upper end. It weakened them for effect/gp.
I was talking about attacking with 2 separate weapons, my bringing up multiple doses of 1 poison is because you can stack the poison on top of eachother for a +2 cumulative bonus, meaning that one additional dose of BLE will have a dc of 22 instead of 20.

McPoyo

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Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
« Reply #109 on: August 09, 2010, 11:03:15 PM »
You'd have to quickdraw multiple weapons for that, since you can't have morethan one doesat a time applied to a weapon.

And that's upper end. It weakened them for effect/gp.
I was talking about attacking with 2 separate weapons, my bringing up multiple doses of 1 poison is because you can stack the poison on top of eachother for a +2 cumulative bonus, meaning that one additional dose of BLE will have a dc of 22 instead of 20.
that's not 10 doses, though
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Ed-Zero

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Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
« Reply #110 on: August 09, 2010, 11:07:43 PM »
You'd have to quickdraw multiple weapons for that, since you can't have morethan one doesat a time applied to a weapon.

And that's upper end. It weakened them for effect/gp.
I was talking about attacking with 2 separate weapons, my bringing up multiple doses of 1 poison is because you can stack the poison on top of eachother for a +2 cumulative bonus, meaning that one additional dose of BLE will have a dc of 22 instead of 20.
that's not 10 doses, though
Uh, obviously I was using 1 dose as a example as they ALL stack with eachother. It would matter if I said 1 dose or 30,000, the effect would be the same... the dc would go up. Which is why I like the new rules for poison better.

Akalsaris

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Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
« Reply #111 on: August 10, 2010, 02:59:30 AM »
Hrm...here's a few poison using PF builds then:

Human Druid 20!  The classic build makes a happy return.  The variants in the APG mostly trade away venom immunity, so avoid them.  Sadly, none of the variants that I could find give druids the fabricate domain for their nature's bond power.

Human Wiz 10/Loremaster 10!  Yep, wizards still rock the minor creation.

Human Rogue 3/Wiz 3/Arcane Trickster 10/Loremaster 4.  BAB +10 (Ouch!), CL 17, SA +7d6.  Gets poison use and can change poison types from the rogue levels, so can run around with improved invisibility, doing SA with poisons and the like.

Human Fighter 1/Cleric 19.  Yessir, another no-brainer with the fabricate domain (from the Pathfinder Chronicles Setting Book). 

No alchemist builds, since alchemist is weak and gives pretty much nothing that I wouldn't get from another class :P

Also!  Updated the guide to include another poison-using build from the Iron Chef challenges!

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Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
« Reply #112 on: August 27, 2010, 04:03:51 AM »
It was said kind of cursorily by Havok4 back on page 5, but I think the Hidden Talent-Psionic Minor Creation trick deserves repetition and inclusion in the main guide.

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Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
« Reply #113 on: August 28, 2010, 02:29:11 AM »
It is an excellent and economical way to boost your characters combat abilities with poison, it also is a way to gain a combat benefit the proper skill point investment from a very early level.

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Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
« Reply #114 on: August 31, 2010, 01:27:06 AM »
I don't see anywhere in Savage Species that says Aboleth Mucus is alchemical OR poison.  I think it's simply a specialty item created by filling a vial with the stuff off the monster.  If anyone could site where/how the rules support it being alchemical/poison (or both), that would be great.

The reason I ask is because I'm rolling up an Alchemist in a Pathfinder game soon and his class abilities apply differently between alchemical items and poisons specifically.  The feat Master Alchemist does as well.  If it counts as both, that would be a really great way to approach poisons.  From the looks of it's entry, though...it seems like something you can't craft at all.

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Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
« Reply #115 on: August 31, 2010, 01:59:49 AM »
Kingdom of Kalamar - Player's guide has rules (page 119) on how you can alter poisons you craft to make them stronger or weaker (changing DC, or delivery type, or amount of damage).  It's pretty useful.
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Archao

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Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
« Reply #116 on: September 01, 2010, 01:30:41 AM »
Consider the Chaos Flask (Planar Handbook p76) for cheap poisons. Buy it for 100gp and with a DC 13 Wisdom check, you have any nonmagical poison.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 01:32:34 AM by Archao »

Akalsaris

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Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
« Reply #117 on: September 09, 2010, 12:07:03 AM »
I don't see anywhere in Savage Species that says Aboleth Mucus is alchemical OR poison.  I think it's simply a specialty item created by filling a vial with the stuff off the monster.  If anyone could site where/how the rules support it being alchemical/poison (or both), that would be great.

The reason I ask is because I'm rolling up an Alchemist in a Pathfinder game soon and his class abilities apply differently between alchemical items and poisons specifically.  The feat Master Alchemist does as well.  If it counts as both, that would be a really great way to approach poisons.  From the looks of it's entry, though...it seems like something you can't craft at all.

Yeah, I think the mucus is a unique item that is neither alchemical or poison.  It's also pretty broken, so that's not such a bad thing.

Anyhow, I'll update the handbook with the Chaos Flask and the Hidden Talent-Psionic Minor Creation trick, both are definitely cool ideas. 

snakeman830

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Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
« Reply #118 on: September 10, 2010, 04:03:10 PM »
nitpick: Thri-kreen have been printed in the Expanded Psionics Handbook more recently than Savage Species.
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Re: Arsenic & Old Lace - the Poison Handbook
« Reply #119 on: September 10, 2010, 04:44:25 PM »
Consider the Chaos Flask (Planar Handbook p76) for cheap poisons. Buy it for 100gp and with a DC 13 Wisdom check, you have any nonmagical poison.
You can do the same thing with Shapesand from Sandstorm, technically.
[spoiler]
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Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]