Author Topic: Player Made Class: The Warshade. Please Critique.  (Read 3323 times)

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Gr1lledcheese

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Player Made Class: The Warshade. Please Critique.
« on: June 24, 2009, 10:53:18 PM »
I've been toying around with the idea of creating a class from scratch. Essentially, I want a dark character, possibly drawing energy from the moon, the cosmos, a demonic bloodline, the magical essence of the underdark, a dark god, or something of the sort. I've drawn inspiration from the City of Heroes class: The Warshade.
 
What I want the class to do: I want the class to be a "Jack of all trades" type character. I want it to be what some would say as "the ultimate 5th person in the party". To that effect, I was thinking of using a few different pre-set shapeshift forms, with a dark twist, to achieve that goal.
 
So for example, if a Big Bad Evil Guy makes it past whoever is holding the battle line, the character could shift into Umbral Behemoth form, increasing his armor class and hit points so that he can stand toe to toe with the beast before it hits a class less able to take the damage. Or if we know we'll be in a situation where a lot of utility spells will be useful, so our primary caster memorizes his spells in that way, and to compensate for the lack of heavy non martial hitters, I shift into Shadow Mephit form to assist with blasting.
 
Essentially each form will put me under par by comparison to the pure class, but that versatility is it's edge. Also, is to make the class's forms get better as it progresses. As a balancing factor, he will not be able to multiclass or prestige class.
 
I want him to fall into the tier 2 range, I think. Roughly on par with the Sorcerer.
 
All form abilities are specific to that form and can not be used in any other. For example, human form does not gain the Umbral Behemoth's Deflection feature, where as Umbral Behemoth form can not use Shadow Mephit form's blasts. Outside buffs and human form buffs (Sunless Mire, Eclipse, etc.) carry over into forms. 

On shifting
« Last Edit: June 26, 2009, 05:21:55 PM by Gr1lledcheese »

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Re: Player Made Class: The Warshade. Please Critique.
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2009, 11:02:47 PM »
Moved to the appropriate subforum.
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Gr1lledcheese

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Re: Player Made Class: The Warshade. Please Critique.
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2009, 11:53:57 PM »
Thanks, I should have looked for this forum

Kerrick

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Re: Player Made Class: The Warshade. Please Critique.
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2009, 12:01:31 AM »
Just a quick post after looking it over:

It looks like a reskin of the warlock, complete with powers. The concept itself is pretty cool - someone who draws on the powers of darkness to give himself power - but I'm not sure the whole shapeshifting thing fits, at least not as a core ability for the class. The problem is, you're trying to do too much it. You cannot do a "jack of all trades" class and make it effective without it being overpowered (IMO), and really, doing a class like that at all is a bad idea. They tried that with the bard, and it fell flat.

BTW, multiclassing restrictions suck. Preventing someone from taking levels in a PrC really sucks, and makes no sense - even paladins and monks can take PrCs.

My advice: Let the character fill a niche. D&D is all about teamwork and characters working together, giving everyone their chance to shine. If you make a PC that can fill any role at will, everyone will want to play it. Let's go back to the original concept - a warlock-type PC who draws on the powers of Shadow. This, right here, is focused enough for a 15-tier PrC instead of a 20-level base class. The shifting powers are cool, but I can't quite figure out how to fit them in. Me, I'd probably change it to a summon ability, where he can summon those creatures (he gets a new one every 3 levels) along with a few others like shadow mastiff or maybe even a lesser nightshade. Then you don't have to screw around with changing his stats, whether or not he's got enough hp to shift to a new form, and scaling statblocks (along with his intellect suddenly going kaput because he's a construct). In addition, let him gain some of the abilities of the summoned creature - for example, if he summons a nether cat, he becomes more stealth and can shadow blend or HiPS. If he summons a mephit, he can fly. A behemoth would grant him an AC bonus, Strength, and/or DR. A shadow or other undead would grant negative energy resistance and an unholy aura (minor fear effect).  See where I'm going with this? He's calling upon the powers of darkness and drawing strength from them, augmenting his own power.

Make the spells into class abilities. You're already halfway there; it would eliminate the statblocks and a lot of the mechanical crap like AoOs for spellcasting, and streamline play immensely. (And no offense, but some of those descriptions are really bad... "You unleash every bit of energy you hold in blast so devastating it is written in history books for all time." It's a negative energy burst. 20d6, sure, but not all that impressive. And the penalties for using/casting it almost aren't worth it.)

Some of the abilities are pretty good in concept, though some could use renaming - sunless mire (though a 5-ft. spread is nigh useless; it affects one square); nether bolt (again, too small an area); stygian circle (too small, and I'm assuming a "hit" is "target affected by the spell"); unchain essence (too powerful - a limited-duration create undead is fine, but 1 hour/level is a bit long, and permanently destroying the creature's soul afterward without a save is far too powerful); eclipse (doesn't state how many hp you drain from the targets); blackstar (no damage type or cap); nightfall (just a negative energy-substituted fireball with no type or cap); evard's dark grip (this is an odd one - I can't really see an arm made of shadow grabbing someone and pulling them, despite the fact that Shadow illusions are semi-material); gravimetric emanation (cool name, but totally unrelated to the class' archetype; the ability is way underpowered for its level).
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Gr1lledcheese

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Re: Player Made Class: The Warshade. Please Critique.
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2009, 05:39:45 AM »
It looks like a reskin of the warlock, complete with powers.

Portions of it are. Nether Bolt for example is a less powerful Eldritch Blast.

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but I'm not sure the whole shapeshifting thing fits, at least not as a core ability for the class.

Does it not fit the theme you're thinking Im going with or it doesn't fit with the power level and balance?

On theme: Often in books and movies dark things have multiple forms. Think the Queen of Darkness from Dragon Lance or Dante from Devil May Cry.

On balance: The object is to have only a few things each form can do to encourage frequent shifts and usage of strategy.
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The problem is, you're trying to do too much it.
That may be the case. But the druid can do everything this class can do but better. Including having a different shapeshift form for nearly every occasion.

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BTW, multiclassing restrictions suck. Preventing someone from taking levels in a PrC really sucks, and makes no sense - even paladins and monks can take PrCs.

True. They do suck, but IMO for this class to be balanced, finding something super optimized to pair with it will just make it worse. At the same time, it would make form advancement really difficult.

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This, right here, is focused enough for a 15-tier PrC instead of a 20-level base class.

What?

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I'd probably change it to a summon ability, where he can summon those creatures (he gets a new one every 3 levels) along with a few others like shadow mastiff or maybe even a lesser nightshade. Then you don't have to screw around with changing his stats, whether or not he's got enough hp to shift to a new form, and scaling statblocks (along with his intellect suddenly going kaput because he's a construct). In addition, let him gain some of the abilities of the summoned creature - for example, if he summons a nether cat, he becomes more stealth and can shadow blend or HiPS. If he summons a mephit, he can fly. A behemoth would grant him an AC bonus, Strength, and/or DR. A shadow or other undead would grant negative energy resistance and an unholy aura (minor fear effect).  See where I'm going with this? He's calling upon the powers of darkness and drawing strength from them, augmenting his own power.

A very good idea. I may get to work on that when this one is finished.

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and streamline play immensely.

The idea I was shooting for was something extremely complicated that made you think a few steps ahead.

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It's a negative energy burst. 20d6, sure, but not all that impressive. And the penalties for using/casting it almost aren't worth it.)

Combined with the sacrificing a pack of Sunless Mire charges, it can get up to 30d6. At 20 ft. across, you can deal up to 6528 damage with that ability. Sunless Mire maxed out is +16d4. Each 5' increment of the burst allows you to affect 8 targets. Using Quasar and sacrificing 10 sunless mire charges increases quasar damage to 30d6. 30d6 damage maximized is 180+6d4 damage. Since Each 5' increment of a burst allows you to target 8 enemies, and a 20' burst has 4 increments of 5', you get a total of 32 people. 180 damage x 32 people=5760 damage. In addition to that, they all take 6d4 damage from the remaining sunless mire charges. Maximized to 24 damage each, that's a total of 768 damage. 5760+768=6528 damage total. (the equation is 180 x 32 + (24 x 32)= 6528. That's extremely powerful, and should have repercussions. At least I think it should. Anything that doesn't die is going to look right at you. Which is where the team work factor of play comes in. And actually now that Im looking at the actual in game numbers, whether it's maximized and assuming everyone fails their save or not, that looks way over powered.

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sunless mire (though a 5-ft. spread is nigh useless; it affects one square);
Quick shifting and combining moves is what makes this class good. Picture this: In behemoth form, Evard's Black Grip everything to your adjacent squares with a move action, shift into human form with a swift action, use sunless mire with a standard action. Now everything adjacent to you makes a save, and if they all fail you get +8d4 damage. Later on, Evard's Black Grip can affect more targets, and sunless mire expands to 10 ft. allowing you to affect 16 targets with it instead of 8. Remember a 5' burst is you in the center and each square around you. Allowing for a total of 8 targets.

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nether bolt (again, too small an area)

Think you may have misread. Nether bolt is one target.

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stygian circle (too small, and I'm assuming a "hit" is "target affected by the spell");
See above quote, it's a total of 8d6 healing for yourself when maximized. Not too shabby if I do say so myself.


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unchain essence (too powerful - a limited-duration create undead is fine, but 1 hour/level is a bit long, and permanently destroying the creature's soul afterward without a save is far too powerful);
I didn't think having pets that deal 1d6 damage a round was too powerful. Check again, they're casting nether bolt at level 1, so they're helping very minorly if they hit.  I clarified the portion about the soul. It was never intended to destroy the soul, rather just to make it untargetable by the spell a second time. Requiring a new fresh corpse.

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eclipse (doesn't state how many hp you drain from the targets); blackstar (no damage type or cap); nightfall (just a negative energy-substituted fireball with no type or cap);

Eclipse was never meant to do damage, but added a 1d4 damge component for arguments sake. Blackstar: damage type and cap added. Nightfall: As a matter of fact that's exactly what it is, and was intended to be so. I didn't want to add a cap to it's damage but figured it would be too powerful if I didn't, so type and cap added.

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evard's dark grip (this is an odd one - I can't really see an arm made of shadow grabbing someone and pulling them, despite the fact that Shadow illusions are semi-material);

It's not an actual shadow as per illusion spells. I believe what your thinking of are phantasms, though. Think more along the lines of unseen servant. It's essentially just a hand made of negative energy. If it's wording is a hard issue, I will rewrite the text.

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gravimetric emanation (cool name, but totally unrelated to the class' archetype; the ability is way underpowered for its level).

From dictionary.com: "Gravimetric: Of or relating to measurement of variations in a gravitational field." I direct you to my above statement where I said power origin may have come from the cosmos. I agree that it is slightly underpowered, but the object of the power was to allow some minor crowd control in Behemoth form, while adding the 1d8 damage component on to it allowed it to be affected by sunless mire. Think about a sunless mire at that level, even if SM only hits half of the total targets it can will be 8d4 damage. 8d4+1d8 damage max= 40 damage to a possible of 8 people and they're knocked prone. It's not perfect, but it does add a little bit more strategy to the class. For example, you could use Gravimetric Emanation, shift into mephit form and fly up without worrying about AoO's. It's about making each form work with it's specific abilities while maintaining versatility.


Thank you though for your post. You brought up good points of interest.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 05:46:32 AM by Gr1lledcheese »

Kerrick

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Re: Player Made Class: The Warshade. Please Critique.
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2009, 01:27:09 PM »
Does it not fit the theme you're thinking Im going with or it doesn't fit with the power level and balance?
I don't know, honestly. It doesn't look to be overpowering, at a glance... but it doesn't quite seem to fit the class' archetype.

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On theme: Often in books and movies dark things have multiple forms. Think the Queen of Darkness from Dragon Lance or Dante from Devil May Cry.

On balance: The object is to have only a few things each form can do to encourage frequent shifts and usage of strategy.
I see what you're saying, but don't you think it might be too many choices? I mean, reading over what you posted below... that's a lot of stuff to remember. It'd be great for a min-maxer or someone who enjoys exploring every tactical option possible, but a casual gamer would get overwhelmed by all that and never realize the class to its full potential. Me, I like using tactics and playing intelligently, but I don't get enjoyment from wringing every single drop of potential from my character - I prefer to have fun and play the game. So, take my comments for what they're worth. :)

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That may be the case. But the druid can do everything this class can do but better. Including having a different shapeshift form for nearly every occasion.
Don't try to balance this against the druid. That thing is the most powerful class in the game and needs to be beaten with a nerf stick.

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True. They do suck, but IMO for this class to be balanced, finding something super optimized to pair with it will just make it worse. At the same time, it would make form advancement really difficult.
Well yeah. But then, given the sheer amount of stuff out there, any player could find a combo to break anything, given enough time. If you think that Joe Gamer can easily find something that would make this class into an overpowered monster, then chances are it needs to be toned down a bit.

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This, right here, is focused enough for a 15-tier PrC instead of a 20-level base class.

What?
What I meant was, the class is very focused - it's all about drawing power (from darkness, Shadow, the cosmos, whatever). As opposed to base classes, which are fairly open - the fighter fights (but the actual choice of HOW he fights is left up to the player to customize); the cleric is a representative of a god (again, which god is the player's choice); the rogue can be stealthy, thuggish, thieving, diplomatic, or any combination thereof. The Warshade, OTOH, is very un-customizable - every one of them gets the same abilities. (I must admit, though, that customization is one of my pet peeves; when I revised the classes for Project Phoenix, I gave most of them paths of some sort to increase flexibility and customization.) You could easily make this into a 15-tier PrC geared toward warlocks or sorcerers.

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The idea I was shooting for was something extremely complicated that made you think a few steps ahead.
Like I said, complicated is good for min-maxers, but not for casual gamers.

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Combined with the sacrificing a pack of Sunless Mire charges, it can get up to 30d6. At 20 ft. across, you can deal up to 6528 damage with that ability. Sunless Mire maxed out is +16d4. Each 5' increment of the burst allows you to affect 8 targets. Using Quasar and sacrificing 10 sunless mire charges increases quasar damage to 30d6. 30d6 damage maximized is 180+6d4 damage. Since Each 5' increment of a burst allows you to target 8 enemies, and a 20' burst has 4 increments of 5', you get a total of 32 people. 180 damage x 32 people=5760 damage. In addition to that, they all take 6d4 damage from the remaining sunless mire charges. Maximized to 24 damage each, that's a total of 768 damage. 5760+768=6528 damage total. (the equation is 180 x 32 + (24 x 32)= 6528. That's extremely powerful, and should have repercussions. At least I think it should. Anything that doesn't die is going to look right at you. Which is where the team work factor of play comes in. And actually now that Im looking at the actual in game numbers, whether it's maximized and assuming everyone fails their save or not, that looks way over powered.
:bigeye 

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Quick shifting and combining moves is what makes this class good. Picture this: In behemoth form, Evard's Black Grip everything to your adjacent squares with a move action, shift into human form with a swift action, use sunless mire with a standard action. Now everything adjacent to you makes a save, and if they all fail you get +8d4 damage. Later on, Evard's Black Grip can affect more targets, and sunless mire expands to 10 ft. allowing you to affect 16 targets with it instead of 8. Remember a 5' burst is you in the center and each square around you. Allowing for a total of 8 targets.
The 5-ft. burst thing doesn't sound right, but I'll take your word for it. :)

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Think you may have misread. Nether bolt is one target.
Yeah, I think I meant something else.

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See above quote, it's a total of 8d6 healing for yourself when maximized. Not too shabby if I do say so myself.
Now that you've explained it, it makes a bit more sense. That is a decent ability.

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I didn't think having pets that deal 1d6 damage a round was too powerful. Check again, they're casting nether bolt at level 1, so they're helping very minorly if they hit.  I clarified the portion about the soul. It was never intended to destroy the soul, rather just to make it untargetable by the spell a second time. Requiring a new fresh corpse.
Yeah, the 1d6/round isn't bad (I did read that the first time, but I was tired and just focused on the "specter" part). Instead of calling them specters, though (since it makes me think of the undead specters), why not just call them spirits to avoid confusion?

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Eclipse was never meant to do damage, but added a 1d4 damge component for arguments sake.
Well, if you're going to be drawing off energy from others to heal yourself, it makes sense to deal some kind of damage to them, a la vampiric touch.

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Nightfall: As a matter of fact that's exactly what it is, and was intended to be so. I didn't want to add a cap to it's damage but figured it would be too powerful if I didn't, so type and cap added.
All spells in 3.5 have a cap, so it simply makes sense - especially when you're using negative energy. Resist energy and its ilk don't protect against it.

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It's not an actual shadow as per illusion spells. I believe what your thinking of are phantasms, though. Think more along the lines of unseen servant. It's essentially just a hand made of negative energy. If it's wording is a hard issue, I will rewrite the text.
It's not the wording so much as the fact that a hand of energy shouldn't be able to manipulate anything. Force, sure - we've got mage hand, the Bigby's spells, etc., but pure energy isn't material.

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From dictionary.com: "Gravimetric: Of or relating to measurement of variations in a gravitational field." I direct you to my above statement where I said power origin may have come from the cosmos.
What if it comes from Shadow?  :P

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I agree that it is slightly underpowered, but the object of the power was to allow some minor crowd control in Behemoth form, while adding the 1d8 damage component on to it allowed it to be affected by sunless mire. Think about a sunless mire at that level, even if SM only hits half of the total targets it can will be 8d4 damage. 8d4+1d8 damage max= 40 damage to a possible of 8 people and they're knocked prone. It's not perfect, but it does add a little bit more strategy to the class. For example, you could use Gravimetric Emanation, shift into mephit form and fly up without worrying about AoO's. It's about making each form work with it's specific abilities while maintaining versatility.
Tripping up to 8 people without a check is certainly useful, and when used in the context of tactics, it's probably better than I'm envisioning.

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Thank you though for your post. You brought up good points of interest.
Sure thing. :)
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Gr1lledcheese

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Re: Player Made Class: The Warshade. Please Critique.
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2009, 04:12:16 PM »
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I see what you're saying, but don't you think it might be too many choices? I mean, reading over what you posted below... that's a lot of stuff to remember. It'd be great for a min-maxer or someone who enjoys exploring every tactical option possible, but a casual gamer would get overwhelmed by all that and never realize the class to its full potential. Me, I like using tactics and playing intelligently, but I don't get enjoyment from wringing every single drop of potential from my character - I prefer to have fun and play the game. So, take my comments for what they're worth. :)

It may be too many choices. I was shooting for a "hard mode" thing. Not for the feint of heart, for sure. In the wrong hands it looks like a jumbled up mess, but in the hands of someone who can see it's potential, it's devastating. I agree that it is a lot to keep track of.

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Don't try to balance this against the druid. That thing is the most powerful class in the game and needs to be beaten with a nerf stick.

 :lmao Too true.

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chances are it needs to be toned down a bit.

You are probably right. Do you think Quasar needs to be taken down a notch? Maybe taking it down to 15d6 and removing the Sunless mire charge portion. Maybe sunless mire needs a cap?

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What I meant was, the class is very focused - it's all about drawing power (from darkness, Shadow, the cosmos, whatever). As opposed to base classes, which are fairly open - the fighter fights (but the actual choice of HOW he fights is left up to the player to customize); the cleric is a representative of a god (again, which god is the player's choice); the rogue can be stealthy, thuggish, thieving, diplomatic, or any combination thereof. The Warshade, OTOH, is very un-customizable - every one of them gets the same abilities. (I must admit, though, that customization is one of my pet peeves; when I revised the classes for Project Phoenix, I gave most of them paths of some sort to increase flexibility and customization.) You could easily make this into a 15-tier PrC geared toward warlocks or sorcerers.

I see what you're saying, I'll try and think of a way to open up the class to be more customizable. I'll even consider breaking it down into prestige classes. That part will take more time though, as I'll need to research the warlock class first. Perhaps a prestige class for each shapeshift form, or a combination PrC of two of them. 

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Combined with the sacrificing a pack of Sunless Mire charges, it can get up to 30d6. At 20 ft. across, you can deal up to 6528 damage with that ability. Sunless Mire maxed out is +16d4. Each 5' increment of the burst allows you to affect 8 targets. Using Quasar and sacrificing 10 sunless mire charges increases quasar damage to 30d6. 30d6 damage maximized is 180+6d4 damage. Since Each 5' increment of a burst allows you to target 8 enemies, and a 20' burst has 4 increments of 5', you get a total of 32 people. 180 damage x 32 people=5760 damage. In addition to that, they all take 6d4 damage from the remaining sunless mire charges. Maximized to 24 damage each, that's a total of 768 damage. 5760+768=6528 damage total. (the equation is 180 x 32 + (24 x 32)= 6528. That's extremely powerful, and should have repercussions. At least I think it should. Anything that doesn't die is going to look right at you. Which is where the team work factor of play comes in. And actually now that Im looking at the actual in game numbers, whether it's maximized and assuming everyone fails their save or not, that looks way over powered.
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:bigeye

It needs to be nerfed doesn't it? 
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The 5-ft. burst thing doesn't sound right, but I'll take your word for it. :)

It's explained better in the 4.0 handbook. Though the class was made for play in 3.5, I couldn't think of a spell off hand to compare it to that had the same burst type

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See above quote, it's a total of 8d6 healing for yourself when maximized. Not too shabby if I do say so myself.
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Now that you've explained it, it makes a bit more sense. That is a decent ability.
Too powerful do you think? Or is it alright because of the level it's gotten?

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Yeah, the 1d6/round isn't bad (I did read that the first time, but I was tired and just focused on the "specter" part). Instead of calling them specters, though (since it makes me think of the undead specters), why not just call them spirits to avoid confusion?
Fixed it.

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Well, if you're going to be drawing off energy from others to heal yourself, it makes sense to deal some kind of damage to them, a la vampiric touch.
I agree with you. Eclipse doesn't heal, but it's pretty close to it. It dealing some damage does work. On top of that, adding a damage component allows it to be affected by sunless mire.

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All spells in 3.5 have a cap, so it simply makes sense - especially when you're using negative energy. Resist energy and its ilk don't protect against it.
Agreed, for balance and consistency purposes, it should have a cap.

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It's not the wording so much as the fact that a hand of energy shouldn't be able to manipulate anything. Force, sure - we've got mage hand, the Bigby's spells, etc., but pure energy isn't material.
Clarified. I was thinking about it like an Alucard from Hellsing type of shadow. Something like this:

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What if it comes from Shadow?  :P
Edited with that in mind.

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Tripping up to 8 people without a check is certainly useful, and when used in the context of tactics, it's probably better than I'm envisioning.
Yeah it isn't game breaking or something that's going to revolutionize play. It does have it's uses, like providing rogues with sneak attack without forcing a flanker, or giving the ranger a chance to use entangling roots to keep them prone. Also they have to spend time getting up, so it helps front liners to take less damage. Or picture readying an action to use it when adjacent to a caster. Right in the middle of their spell cast they get knocked on their butt. That's a lost spell if I've ever seen one.  :)

Kerrick

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Re: Player Made Class: The Warshade. Please Critique.
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2009, 01:30:16 PM »
You are probably right. Do you think Quasar needs to be taken down a notch? Maybe taking it down to 15d6 and removing the Sunless mire charge portion. Maybe sunless mire needs a cap?
Considering that the best negative-energy-burst spell in 3.5 (core, cause that's all I have) is mass inflict crit wounds, and it deals 4d8+40 at L8, I'd say that eclipse is probably a bit overpowered. Your suggestion sounds good - 15d6 without an augment option is good for a limited-use ability.

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I see what you're saying, I'll try and think of a way to open up the class to be more customizable. I'll even consider breaking it down into prestige classes. That part will take more time though, as I'll need to research the warlock class first. Perhaps a prestige class for each shapeshift form, or a combination PrC of two of them.
Would you mind if I took a crack at it? I could toss out a rough framework, at least.

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It needs to be nerfed doesn't it?
6528 negative energy damage? Yeah... I think so. :)

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It's explained better in the 4.0 handbook. Though the class was made for play in 3.5, I couldn't think of a spell off hand to compare it to that had the same burst type.
There aren't any - 3.5 doesn't use that mechanic, which is why I was so boggled. When I first started reading this, I thought it was for 4E, until I got to the spells. It's very "4E-like" (just a statement of fact, not a bash).

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Too powerful do you think? Or is it alright because of the level it's gotten?
I was initially going to suggest dropping the healing to 1d4, but after some thought I think it might be okay. Mass slow is L7, but since it's a reduced range, it would be L5; the healing effect is only 27 on average, about on par with cure crit (4d8+15 at that level) at L4. So... maybe bump it up a level.

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Clarified. I was thinking about it like an Alucard from Hellsing type of shadow. Something like this:
That's kind of cool (the picture, I mean).

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What if it comes from Shadow?  :P
Edited with that in mind.
Yeah... you have all these abilities based on darkness, Shadow, and negative energy, and then "Gravimetric Emanation" - it just sticks out like a sore thumb.

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Yeah it isn't game breaking or something that's going to revolutionize play. It does have it's uses, like providing rogues with sneak attack without forcing a flanker, or giving the ranger a chance to use entangling roots to keep them prone. Also they have to spend time getting up, so it helps front liners to take less damage. Or picture readying an action to use it when adjacent to a caster. Right in the middle of their spell cast they get knocked on their butt. That's a lost spell if I've ever seen one.  :)
Yup yup.
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Gr1lledcheese

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Re: Player Made Class: The Warshade. Please Critique.
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2009, 05:23:02 PM »
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Considering that the best negative-energy-burst spell in 3.5 (core, cause that's all I have) is mass inflict crit wounds, and it deals 4d8+40 at L8, I'd say that eclipse is probably a bit overpowered. Your suggestion sounds good - 15d6 without an augment option is good for a limited-use ability.
Quasar: Damage has been reduced, removed the negative effects after casting, Successful saving throw now causes half damage, usable once per day instead of once per week.

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Would you mind if I took a crack at it? I could toss out a rough framework, at least.
Please, go at it. I've read a bit of Project Phoenix and I feel confident that you'll do it justice.

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6528 negative energy damage? Yeah... I think so. :)
But, give me credit here...a blast like that WOULD have been written in history books forever, wouldn't it?  :p

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There aren't any - 3.5 doesn't use that mechanic, which is why I was so boggled. When I first started reading this, I thought it was for 4E, until I got to the spells. It's very "4E-like" (just a statement of fact, not a bash).
Added centered around you to all burst powers. They now read 5' 10' or 20' burst centered around you. I wonder why 3.5 doesn't use that mechanic. At the very least, now it does :)


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Too powerful do you think? Or is it alright because of the level it's gotten?
I was initially going to suggest dropping the healing to 1d4, but after some thought I think it might be okay. Mass slow is L7, but since it's a reduced range, it would be L5; the healing effect is only 27 on average, about on par with cure crit (4d8+15 at that level) at L4. So... maybe bump it up a level.[/quote]
Moved down to level 8. It's worth noting however that this can possibly hit 16 targets, providing 16d6 worth of healing. The odds of you getting 16 enemies around you are very slim though, and that would be if they all failed their saving throws.

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Yeah... you have all these abilities based on darkness, Shadow, and negative energy, and then "Gravimetric Emanation" - it just sticks out like a sore thumb.
Name changed to Oppressive Gloom.

Keldar

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Re: Player Made Class: The Warshade. Please Critique.
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2009, 07:30:10 AM »
I think your port may be a little more complex than it needs to be in some ways.

What about basing it more off the Warlock?  Make many of those special abilities Invocations instead of normal class abilities.  Force people to pick and choose a little.

Furthermore, it might be a better idea to make the forms build off the base, rather than completely overwrite them.  While not quite keeping to the original material, it would make balance a bit easier.  You can grant the forms extra toughness by either giving temporary hit points, or a constitution bonus that specifically improves hit points.

Don't bother with redundant attacks.  Shadow Memphit form for example has no need of two area attacks when neither one has a limit on use.  Unless you want to give attacks differing effects (like a speed reduction in one), use the Blast Shape idea from Warlock.  I.E. Netherblast or Ebon Blast would be made an Area attack by applying the appropriate blast shape.

Plus, what hit die, BAB, ect. are you giving to this class?  I didn't see it anywhere.

Kerrick

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Re: Player Made Class: The Warshade. Please Critique.
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2009, 03:15:44 PM »
Quasar: Damage has been reduced, removed the negative effects after casting, Successful saving throw now causes half damage, usable once per day instead of once per week.
It was once per week? I missed that part.

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Please, go at it. I've read a bit of Project Phoenix and I feel confident that you'll do it justice.
Coolio! Hey, if you're interested in PrC design, have a look at this - it's an article I wrote some time ago about creating PrCs. It goes into greater detail about most of the guidelines I use. Also, I've got several shadow-based PrCs on my site; you could take a look at those for some ideas.

I've got some other things to do this weekend, but I'll been going over some ideas in my head. I'll post something soon.

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But, give me credit here...a blast like that WOULD have been written in history books forever, wouldn't it?  :p
Oh hell yeah. :D

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Added centered around you to all burst powers. They now read 5' 10' or 20' burst centered around you. I wonder why 3.5 doesn't use that mechanic. At the very least, now it does :)
I thought they already stated that they used the PC as the center of the AoE. At any rate, the range should be "0 ft." and the Target entry should be "Area: 5-ft. radius" (or 10, or 15). Thus, it's a burst effect centered on the PC. The reason there aren't many of those in 3.5 is because they'll affect your allies. Like I said, D&D is all about teamwork, and parties working (and fighting) together. Burst effects centered on the caster are almost always beneficial, so that they help his allies, not hinder them. These effects rely on the PC to go off by himself and get surrounded by enemies (Lone Range Syndrome) which is tactically unsound (he's alone and cut off from his friends. Sure, said friends might be nearby, waiting to flank or sneak attack, but what if the targets make their saves and aren't affected? Depending on the Warshade's BAB and HD (which, if it's based on the warlock, probably aren't that good), he's going to get dogpiled and pounded into hamburger.

[quoteMoved down to level 8. It's worth noting however that this can possibly hit 16 targets, providing 16d6 worth of healing. The odds of you getting 16 enemies around you are very slim though, and that would be if they all failed their saving throws.[/quote]
Yeah, that's another thing about burst powers like this - it doesn't account for size of the targets, so you could easily cram in a horde of small opponents (bag of rats, anyone?) and get huge amounts of healing or DR or whatever. You might want to think about putting a cap on the number of targets equal to class level (for a PrC), or half level (for a base class). Like you say, it's not very likely to happen, but it is possible - smaller monsters tend to have lower saves.

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Name changed to Oppressive Gloom.
Reading over that... it doesn't make sense. Oppressive gloom sounds like a greater version of Sunless Mire - deep shadows that sap at your strength, slow you down, and drain health. If you really want to keep it (and I don't see why not), I'd change it to a burdening effect. I don't know if you're familiar with TES IV:Oblivion, but there's a spell called Burden that increases the target's weight, possibly pinning him in place if it exceeds his allowance. What you could do with Oppressive Gloom is temporarily reduce everyone's Strength to 1 (which will pretty well cause them to collapse); those that save are still slowed as the negative energy saps their strength and makes it harder for them to move.

BTW, I agree with Keldar - it makes more sense to have those special abilities as spells or invocations, since they're already written up in spell format. This also cuts down on complexity and opens up flexibility - instead of having to have x form to use y invocation, you can use it anytime, if you have it prepared.

Thanks for the link, Keldar - this class has all kinds of cool stuff that I'm going to yoink.
Project Phoenix. 4E the way it should have been done.

Kuroimaken

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Re: Player Made Class: The Warshade. Please Critique.
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2009, 07:02:07 PM »
I could have SWORN that a class with this name would have been all about fighting with umbrellas.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


JohnOSevens

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Re: Player Made Class: The Warshade. Please Critique.
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2009, 02:24:36 AM »
Uber on-the-fly customization with an option for everything and a demonic slant?

Isn't that basically the same flavor as Binder with a different mechanic put on it?
John O'Sevens
formerly SageBahamut on 339

Gr1lledcheese

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Re: Player Made Class: The Warshade. Please Critique.
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2009, 12:52:28 PM »
Heh, could be.

Kuroimaken

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Re: Player Made Class: The Warshade. Please Critique.
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2009, 01:46:53 PM »
Uber on-the-fly customization with an option for everything and a demonic slant?

Isn't that basically the same flavor as Binder with a different mechanic put on it?

Not really. Binders don't get to be uber-on-the-fly, it takes planning.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


Gr1lledcheese

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Re: Player Made Class: The Warshade. Please Critique.
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2009, 08:37:00 PM »
In my own defense, this class takes a bit of planning too. :)

Quite a bit of danger too.