Author Topic: Ask a simple question...4e style  (Read 34577 times)

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DaveTheMagicWeasel

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Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2008, 12:22:42 AM »
Not so much optimization, but it is simple...

Q16: How long does KotS take to run?  E.g. can I get my group through it in a single day session one weekend, or is it a longer adventure?

Ed-Zero

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Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
« Reply #41 on: June 05, 2008, 04:20:56 AM »
Q17: Exactly how many orbs can I have in my possession? (This answer directly affects Q18)
Q18: Are orbs wielded in your hands? (If so, then can you wield 2? If not, then can I have 40 of them hanging from my belt?)

*Note: The wizards flavor text says "runed implements of your craft hang from your belt". As we all know, orbs are considered implements.

*Note #2: The feat "Second Implement [Wizard]" implies that you gain another feature of being able to use a implement, the feat does not increase the amount of implements you may have.

*Note #3: The only thing I found that might counter having more than 2 orbs or really any implements is the "bonuses of the same type don't stack".. Although that doesn't really stop having 2 different orbs or having the orbs be a different level of enhancement.

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
« Reply #42 on: June 05, 2008, 04:42:12 AM »
Q19: Does the proficiency bonus to attack apply to a power which requires the weapon?

heffroncm

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Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
« Reply #43 on: June 05, 2008, 06:48:27 AM »
A17) As many as you can find / afford / carry

A18) Yes.  You could wield 2, though you could only apply the effects of one at a time.  You can bring as many as you like to a fight, but again can only apply the effects of one at a time.

Implements are a Caster's weapon.  You can carry different implements for different occaisions.  There's nothing stopping a level 1 Wizard from having and using a Staff, Orb, and Wand.  The Arcane Implement Mastery class feature is different, and Second Implement allows you to pick a second Implement Mastery.

A19) Yes.

brislove

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Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
« Reply #44 on: June 05, 2008, 08:08:58 PM »
a:16 I think it's about 12-16 hours of game-time. I have gotten through the first part of the keep in about 7 hours of play. they were RP lite session, as most people just wanted to test out the new rules for combat. So depending on how long your sessions are...but I think a weekend of devoted gaming should get through it without much difficulty.

Also you can skip entire parts of the adventure (such as the kobold lair and/or the burial site) which would significantly reduce the time taken.

Ed-Zero

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Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
« Reply #45 on: June 05, 2008, 09:27:50 PM »
A18) Yes.  You could wield 2, though you could only apply the effects of one at a time.  You can bring as many as you like to a fight, but again can only apply the effects of one at a time.

Implements are a Caster's weapon.  You can carry different implements for different occaisions.  There's nothing stopping a level 1 Wizard from having and using a Staff, Orb, and Wand.  The Arcane Implement Mastery class feature is different, and Second Implement allows you to pick a second Implement Mastery.

A19) Yes.
Can you tell me where you're getting the information that I can wield 2 at? (page #, etc) I looked over the PHB and the DMG and haven't found anywhere that has talked about how many orbs I can use (not just hold, but actually have the damage/crit from different orbs stack) at one time.

Eepop

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Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
« Reply #46 on: June 05, 2008, 11:06:44 PM »
Q20) Does wielding a weapon in your off hand effect your ability to use bracers or a shield? 

It seems like balance wise it should, but I'm having trouble finding confirmation that an offhand weapon takes up that magic item slot.

heffroncm

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Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
« Reply #47 on: June 05, 2008, 11:36:23 PM »
Can you tell me where you're getting the information that I can wield 2 at? (page #, etc) I looked over the PHB and the DMG and haven't found anywhere that has talked about how many orbs I can use (not just hold, but actually have the damage/crit from different orbs stack) at one time.

I never said you could get the extra damage or crit from both.  You can have two in your hands ready to use (definition of Wield) at any time, but you can only apply the effects of one to any particular spell.  This is the same as with weapons: anyone can Wield a Light Weapon in addition to a One Handed Weapon, they just gain absolutely no benefit for doing so other than having two weapons to pick from on each attack unless they have specific feats or class features that say otherwise.

Q20) Does wielding a weapon in your off hand effect your ability to use bracers or a shield? 

It seems like balance wise it should, but I'm having trouble finding confirmation that an offhand weapon takes up that magic item slot.

a20) Page 224 PHB.

"Soemtimes there are physical limitations as well - you cannot wear two helm."  The previous few lines talk about how you can wear Bracers and hold a Shield at the same time, though only one takes effect at a time.  From these, it's easy to extrapolate that you can't hold a Weapon and a Shield in the same hand, but there is nothing stopping you from wearing Bracers and using an off-hand weapon (as it is NOT an Arm slot item).

I'll see if I can find omre corraboration.

Ed-Zero

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Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
« Reply #48 on: June 06, 2008, 12:22:51 AM »
Quote
I never said you could get the extra damage or crit from both.  You can have two in your hands ready to use (definition of Wield) at any time, but you can only apply the effects of one to any particular spell.  This is the same as with weapons: anyone can Wield a Light Weapon in addition to a One Handed Weapon, they just gain absolutely no benefit for doing so other than having two weapons to pick from on each attack unless they have specific feats or class features that say otherwise.
*Sigh...* You obviously didn't answer my question. From what it looks like, you're quoting RAI (Rules As Interpreted) as opposed to RAW (Rules as Written). So once again, I ask if you can please site where you are getting this information from? If you can't then you aren't really answering my question.

Implements as far as I have read are not comparable to weapons (except staffs which can be used as weapons and in that case you can only hold one in each hand). You cast your magic through the item but does having more than one amplify the damage?

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Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
« Reply #49 on: June 06, 2008, 12:37:50 AM »
RAI=Rules As Intended, right? Not Rules As Interpreted.
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heffroncm

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Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
« Reply #50 on: June 06, 2008, 12:39:03 AM »
Quote
I never said you could get the extra damage or crit from both.  You can have two in your hands ready to use (definition of Wield) at any time, but you can only apply the effects of one to any particular spell.  This is the same as with weapons: anyone can Wield a Light Weapon in addition to a One Handed Weapon, they just gain absolutely no benefit for doing so other than having two weapons to pick from on each attack unless they have specific feats or class features that say otherwise.
*Sigh...* You obviously didn't answer my question. From what it looks like, you're quoting RAI (Rules As Interpreted) as opposed to RAW (Rules as Written). So once again, I ask if you can please site where you are getting this information from? If you can't then you aren't really answering my question.

Implements as far as I have read are not comparable to weapons (except staffs which can be used as weapons and in that case you can only hold one in each hand). You cast your magic through the item but does having more than one amplify the damage?

Your original question asked if you could wield two implements.  You later clarified that you wanted to apply the enhancement bonuses of two implements to a single use of a power, which is a completely different issue.  I answered.  You are allowed to use AN implement to apply AN enhancement bonus to a power with the Implement keyword.  Even if multiple Implements applied their Enhancement bonus at the same time, you can only have ONE bonus of a particular type, so the highest would apply.  To apply the effects of any Implement, you have to channel the power through the Implement.

I can't quote you a lack of information.  The base rules allow for a single Implement with a single power.  It would need to be spelled out that you COULD use two Implements on the same spell to counteract the basic rules text.  Implements are exactly anagolous of weapons, and are compared to such multiple times in the PHB.  I'm not quoting RAI, I'm quoting RAW.  If you don't have the RAW, then maybe wait before drawing conclusions?

Ed-Zero

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Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
« Reply #51 on: June 06, 2008, 12:57:58 AM »
Quote
Your original question asked if you could wield two implements.  You later clarified that you wanted to apply the enhancement bonuses of two implements to a single use of a power, which is a completely different issue.  I answered.  You are allowed to use AN implement to apply AN enhancement bonus to a power with the Implement keyword.  Even if multiple Implements applied their Enhancement bonus at the same time, you can only have ONE bonus of a particular type, so the highest would apply.  To apply the effects of any Implement, you have to channel the power through the Implement.

I can't quote you a lack of information.  The base rules allow for a single Implement with a single power.  It would need to be spelled out that you COULD use two Implements on the same spell to counteract the basic rules text.  Implements are exactly anagolous of weapons, and are compared to such multiple times in the PHB.  I'm not quoting RAI, I'm quoting RAW.  If you don't have the RAW, then maybe wait before drawing conclusions?
My second question that I posted was this:
Q18: Are orbs wielded in your hands? (If so, then can you wield 2? If not, then can I have 40 of them hanging from my belt?).
You give me this:
A18) Yes.  You could wield 2, though you could only apply the effects of one at a time.  You can bring as many as you like to a fight, but again can only apply the effects of one at a time.

You saying that caused me to ask where you got it. You still have not said what page you are getting this information from. You say it's RAW yet you don't back it up. If the rules say that you can only wield 2 yet somehow their bonuses don't stack then please please please tell me what page of what book you are getting this information. Saying "it's RAW" doesn't mean anything unless you can tell me that.

heffroncm

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Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
« Reply #52 on: June 06, 2008, 01:19:56 AM »
You saying that caused me to ask where you got it. You still have not said what page you are getting this information from. You say it's RAW yet you don't back it up. If the rules say that you can only wield 2 yet somehow their bonuses don't stack then please please please tell me what page of what book you are getting this information. Saying "it's RAW" doesn't mean anything unless you can tell me that.

The rules make no mention of wether or not you can wield two.  Pages 236 through 242 make clear that you can apply the effects of only one implement for each activationg of a power.  They also make clear that Orbs, Rods, Staffs, and Wands can A) be used one-handed and B) there is no restriction on wielding multiples.  You're not going to get the effects of multiples on a single power, but you can wield two and choose which to apply each time.  You must have one of these implements in hand to use it's effects, thereby placing a physical limit on the number you can wield at a time.

How am I supposed to back this up?  There is no direct quote that says, "You can wield two Orbs at a time, but may only apply the abilities of one at a time."  This is information that has to be gleaned from multiple locations, those being chapter four and chapter seven, in the various descriptions of powers, implements, and magic items.

DaveTheMagicWeasel

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Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
« Reply #53 on: June 06, 2008, 01:22:58 AM »
a:16 I think it's about 12-16 hours of game-time. I have gotten through the first part of the keep in about 7 hours of play. they were RP lite session, as most people just wanted to test out the new rules for combat. So depending on how long your sessions are...but I think a weekend of devoted gaming should get through it without much difficulty.

Also you can skip entire parts of the adventure (such as the kobold lair and/or the burial site) which would significantly reduce the time taken.

Hmmm... as written too long for one of our sessions me thinks - we need chat, booze and pizza time!

I was thinking of inviting my old uni group up to my home town for a one-off 4e trial, so wouldn't want to have to stop halfway through, but if a lot of it is superfluous it may yet be possible... :D

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brislove

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Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
« Reply #54 on: June 06, 2008, 01:38:02 AM »
I would just ignore the keep, and deal with the kobold lair if you were to run a one-shot adventure. it should be good for about 4-5 hours of play :)

Dan2

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Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
« Reply #55 on: June 06, 2008, 02:09:07 AM »
It's too bad WotC didn't do a better job proofreading their products...

Q19: I notice that Cloudkill does not have an attack line.  I assume that it is supposed to be Intelligence vs Fortitude (like Stinking Cloud)?  As a combo with this question: why does Cloudkill suck so much?

Q20: How does Resounding Thunder affect the Stormspell Mage's Storm Cage?  Storm Cage specifically says that, "You conjure a wall in the 16 outer squares of the burst (forming a square enclosure)."  Would this upgrade to 25 squares?  would it stay 16 with the 4d6 damage from the attack affecting the outer 25 squares?  Does it not work?  ???

Q21: Why in the hell would WotC make Thunderclap (Wiz Encounter 23) a crappy version of Ice Tomb (Wiz Encounter 17)?  Is it because no other attack can affect it during that stunned period?  Does anyone else think that's retarded?  :wall :fu

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Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
« Reply #56 on: June 06, 2008, 02:20:22 AM »
Quote
Q19: I notice that Cloudkill does not have an attack line.  I assume that it is supposed to be Intelligence vs Fortitude (like Stinking Cloud)?  As a combo with this question: why does Cloudkill suck so much?

Apparently, the only advantage it has over stinking cloud is its larger area (11x11 squares compared to stinking cloud's 5x5 squares), which is almost 5 times as big. So you will likely be able to catch all the enemies in it, including minions. Seems like wotc places a very huge premium on the area of effect... ???

Quote
Q21: Why in the hell would WotC make Thunderclap (Wiz Encounter 23) a crappy version of Ice Tomb (Wiz Encounter 17)?  Is it because no other attack can affect it during that stunned period?  Does anyone else think that's retarded?   

That seems about it. You can still attack an enemy stunned by thunderclap but not ice tomb. So it is somewhat better, but I am not sure if this is worth the disparity in lvs though. Heck, ice tomb even deals more damage!
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heffroncm

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Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
« Reply #57 on: June 06, 2008, 02:21:41 AM »
These would be 21, 22, and 23.  Updating the qutoes.

It's too bad WotC didn't do a better job proofreading their products...

Q21: I notice that Cloudkill does not have an attack line.  I assume that it is supposed to be Intelligence vs Fortitude (like Stinking Cloud)?  As a combo with this question: why does Cloudkill suck so much?
A21:There's no Attack line in Cloudkill because there is no Attack.  Referance page 57 PHB: "Most attack powers that deal damage recquire an attack roll." Not all.  Anyone in the Zone is automatically hit.  Cloudkill is great because it is automatic damage over a large area which sticks around for the entire fight and can be moved.

Q20: How does Resounding Thunder affect the Stormspell Mage's Storm Cage?  Storm Cage specifically says that, "You conjure a wall in the 16 outer squares of the burst (forming a square enclosure)."  Would this upgrade to 25 squares?  would it stay 16 with the 4d6 damage from the attack affecting the outer 25 squares?  Does it not work?  ???

A22: By RAW, it conflicts itself.  It both needs to be 16 outer squares, and form a square enclosure.  IMO, the square enclosure would override the number of squares, bringing it up to 25 squares.  Check with your DM, and expect it to get FAQ'd real soon.

Q21: Why in the hell would WotC make Thunderclap (Wiz Encounter 23) a crappy version of Ice Tomb (Wiz Encounter 17)?  Is it because no other attack can affect it during that stunned period?  Does anyone else think that's retarded?  :wall :fu

A23: This is a matter of opinion.  The only differances between the two powers are 6 average damage and the ability to effect the target.  I believe that Thunderclap is a much more useful ability in encounters with Elites or a Solo.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2008, 02:25:46 AM by heffroncm »

Dan2

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Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
« Reply #58 on: June 06, 2008, 02:34:09 AM »
Referencing Cloudkill:
That's the case with a lot of other powers too, but they don't also have a "Hit:" line in their descriptions.  They just have an "Effect:" line.
I'm pretty sure that a "Hit" can only come into effect after an attack...

heffroncm

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Re: Ask a simple question...4e style
« Reply #59 on: June 06, 2008, 02:38:03 AM »
Referencing Cloudkill:
That's the case with a lot of other powers too, but they don't also have a "Hit:" line in their descriptions.  They just have an "Effect:" line.
I'm pretty sure that a "Hit" can only come into effect after an attack...

Yup, the very existance of a "Hit" line demands an "Attack" line.  So, either there should be an Attack, or the Hit line is in error.  Either way, Cloudkill does guarunteed damage over an abdsurb area.