E6 "The Game Inside"

[theterran]

Interesting..

[dither]

Okay, let's do this. I'm thinking we're looking at non setting-specific gestalt game.

Anything that's setting-specific or random or weird has to go through me, obviously.

Since this is E6, we're going to start at ECL 1. You're allowed a LA +1 race to take up one of your 1st levels, if you like, and give yourself the appropriate racial Hit Die for your trouble -- a goliath or half-giant, for example, would have a giant Hit Die for their 1st level. If this seems too difficult to understand, ask. If you want to play something with an LA above +1, ask.

(BTW, I'd like a group consensus about the two "savage progressions" I generated there -- the dryad and the unbodied. If I get some feedback and maybe some pointers/tips/etc., I might be willing to do up a couple more, like the lich, for instance. *nudge nudge* Whatever you guys want, let's have some fun.)

Give yourself the stats you want. Be reasonable and don't be a douchebag. If you give yourself all 18s, the encounters will kick your ass so hard your character's descendants will have bruises. The maximum ability score allowed before racial modifiers is 18.

All characters receive +12 bonus hit points at 1st level.

...

The Adventure Hook:
An fortress in the West has fallen under attack and has sent out a call for those with strength to lend aid.

Knowledge (arcana)

• Powerful magic and ancient lore is said to be stored in the fortress, which doubles as a monastery.

Knowledge (architecture)

• The fortress is famed for its intricate stoneworks, its beautiful cathedral, and its extensive catacombs.
• A great gate was erected in a site nicknamed the "stony field," which bars passage to the monastery and serves as its first line of defense.

Knowledge (dungeoneering)

• Nestled in a pass in one of the largest mountain ranges in the nation, the area is known for its numerous natural cave complexes.

Knowledge (geography)

• The fortress sits in a very lucrative spot at a mountain pass that's the fastest place to travel from the East to the West, and vice versa.

Knowledge (history)

• The site is known to have been controlled by several different groups in the past and is currently under the control of a benign cult known as the Sisterhood of the Sightless Eye, an organization sworn to fight evil and demonic corruption.
• Numerous crypts and ruins are known to be scattered throughout the area, where previous forts and settlements existed.

Knowledge (nature)

• The fortress is in a very defensible location. Forests and swamps lead into the foothills and segue into the mountains. The pass itself is narrow and not an easy place to stage an attack.

Knowledge (the planes)

• The fortress is at a dimensional weak point, where crossing the planar boundaries would be very easy.

Knowledge (religion)

• This fortress is known as the Citadel of the Sightless Eye and is a monastery owned and operated by an organization known as the Sisterhood of the Sightless Eye.

[mans0011]

Sweet! I'm going to be a sorceress themed character. I'm thinking Focused Conjurer with abrupt jaunt or focused evoker // maybe monk. I dunno. Thoughts?

[dither]

Sweet! I'm going to be a sorceress themed character. I'm thinking Focused Conjurer with abrupt jaunt or focused evoker // maybe monk. I dunno. Thoughts?

I've always liked the D2 sorceress for her flavor -- in theory, they were supposed to be these nimble, athletic women who were also top-notch spellcasters. Monk/wizard definitely fits the idea of the sorceress. It might actually be a lot of fun to go monk 6 // sorcerer 2/wizard 3/ultimate magus 1 ... or possibly duskblade 6 // monk 6? I wonder if that would be a viable build... ?

edit: alternatively, there's something like monk/warmage (what's that feat that makes the monk's AC bonus based on INT? Kung-fu Genius or something? lol). Oh, or Monk/Wu Jen, for the weird elemental-themed flavor.

[mans0011]

Sweet! I'm going to be a sorceress themed character. I'm thinking Focused Conjurer with abrupt jaunt or focused evoker // maybe monk. I dunno. Thoughts?

I've always liked the D2 sorceress for her flavor -- in theory, they were supposed to be these nimble, athletic women who were also top-notch spellcasters. Monk/wizard definitely fits the idea of the sorceress. It might actually be a lot of fun to go monk 6 // sorcerer 2/wizard 3/ultimate magus 1 ... or possibly duskblade 6 // monk 6? I wonder if that would be a viable build... ?

edit: alternatively, there's something like monk/warmage (what's that feat that makes the monk's AC bonus based on INT? Kung-fu Genius or something? lol). Oh, or Monk/Wu Jen, for the weird elemental-themed flavor.

Hmmmm. Will look into it. Or maybe Sorc//Paladin.  I wonder what the Paladin class from D2 might be represented as in 3.5--hammerdins ALL the way!!!!!

[dither]

Hmmmm. Will look into it. Or maybe Sorc//Paladin.  I wonder what the Paladin class from D2 might be represented as in 3.5--hammerdins ALL the way!!!!!

Crusader/incarnate?

[Surreal]

A Crusader/Incarnate with therapeutic mantle and martial spirit will be ridiculously hard to kill. I think I have a build somewhere on the first or second page with a pixie crusader/incarnate//binder.

[theterran]

I don't know about Int, but Ascetic Mage makes it Cha...and lets Sorc levels stack with Monk levels...if you're going the Sorc route that is..

[Caelic]

I'd be interested in this if a spot opens up.

[dither]

The following people have expressed an interest (near as I can tell):

• bogsnes
• ? - BowenSilverclaw
• Caelic
• ErhnamDJ
• Generic_PC
• mans0011
• Soda
• Surreal
• ? - theterran
• ? - veekie
• Vinom

I included everyone who posted in the thread at some point, though I'm obviously not sure if everyone who posted was indicating an interest in playing.

Before I post this to the Current Games thread, could I see some preliminary build ideas from everyone who wants to play?

[ErhnamDJ]

I'm no longer interested. That elves are immune to sleep, and dragons to paralysis is just too important to me.  (Also, those racial classes look pretty out there.)

[dither]

I'm no longer interested. That elves are immune to sleep, and dragons to paralysis is just too important to me.  (Also, those racial classes look pretty out there.)

I just meant the sneak attack/critical hit thing about immunities. I should go back and read that post.

I just wanted rogues to be more effective. I don't think I even mentioned elves and dragons. 

I didn't get any feedback on the racial classes, either...

[ErhnamDJ]

Oh, and I think I'll probably throw out there that most typical monster immunities will be wiped away. For instance: elementals, plants, undead, constucts, etc. will no longer be immune to sneak attacks and critical hits. A couple of the stranger monsters like oozes might retain their immunities, but other than that, I'll deal with monsters on a case-by-case basis.

Is what I was referring to.

The dryad progression looks okay, but the unbodied one seems to lose nothing (it gets a full base attack, no skipped hit dice, and four levels of psion manifesting, along with all its racial abilities and d8 hit die). Eh, I guess when compared to some of the more powerful monster classes (like the astral deva) it's okay, but none of the other ones I've seen go straight to a +6 base attack. Add in gestalt and you're looking at someone with high hit points, full base attack (for that all important second attack) and third level powers and spells. Not that big a deal, I suppose, if you're looking at the base attack in such a way that it staggers up to full with only one level of a full BAB class at first level.

[Vinom]

Oh, and I think I'll probably throw out there that most typical monster immunities will be wiped away. For instance: elementals, plants, undead, constucts, etc. will no longer be immune to sneak attacks and critical hits. A couple of the stranger monsters like oozes might retain their immunities, but other than that, I'll deal with monsters on a case-by-case basis.

Is what I was referring to.

The dryad progression looks okay, but the unbodied one seems to lose nothing (it gets a full base attack, no skipped hit dice, and four levels of psion manifesting, along with all its racial abilities and d8 hit die). Eh, I guess when compared to some of the more powerful monster classes (like the astral deva) it's okay, but none of the other ones I've seen go straight to a +6 base attack. Add in gestalt and you're looking at someone with high hit points, full base attack (for that all important second attack) and third level powers and spells. Not that big a deal, I suppose, if you're looking at the base attack in such a way that it staggers up to full with only one level of a full BAB class at first level.

I'm thinking Pocket Rogue would be a nice build to play in this setting...

[dither]

[snip]...the unbodied one seems to lose nothing... [snip]

My instinct with the unbodied was to drop it to 3/4 BAB and have only good Will saves. I left it with all of its type's (monstrous humanoid) abilities, in case there were some complaints ... frankly I *do* think it's probably overpowered. I tried to throw in everything that was important to actually playing an unbodied while spreading its abilities out over 6 levels.

It's dependent on the character having at least one psion level to gain any manifesting abilities, however, and it only progresses the psion class. I took the lead from the racial paragon classes in that case. I'm trying to figure out how the unbodied I made would benefit from psion classes at all outside of gestalt ... I forget -- can you multiclass out of a "racial class" before you finish it?

I'm pretty sure the ones in Libris Mortis don't let you, but I don't remember how the ones in Savage Species work.

...

Okay, let me rephrase my quip about immunities before, to clear it up:
Most monsters will lose immunity to critical hits and precision-based damage (like sneak attack) because those kinds of immunities make me sad. Some monsters will retain the above immunities (critical hits and sneak attack) but I will address those monsters on a case-by-case basis.

Ironically, the two creature types you cited, ErnhamDJ, the elf and the dragon, don't make appearances in the standard Diabloverse in any real quantity. I mean, I'm sure the elves and dragons are in there somewhere, but I can't think of any off the top of my head. I mean, the Necromancer's teeth spell supposedly summons the teeth of the dragon the necromancers worship ... a dracolich or something... but that's all that comes to mind.

Mostly, this effects undead, which make up roughly 30% of the monsters that appear in the Diablo setting. That's what I was making the change for.

I'm thinking Pocket Rogue would be a nice build to play in this setting...

Pocket Rogue ... ?

[ErhnamDJ]

Wizards was never consistent about whether you had to take all the levels of a 'template class.' The were printed under different names and abilities in many books and web articles. Sometimes you had to take them all, sometimes you didn't. Just depended on which particular instance you were looking at. As for the ones you made, it would be up to you.

For the unbodied, I was thinking you would take one level of psion at first level (with gestalt), then take all the other levels as wizard or archivist. Voila. Full BAB, d8 hit die, 3rd level spells and powers. Plus the unbodied abilities.

My concerns with the immunities was more of those the player characters would have. I was thinking of an elf someone might choose to play, rather than an NPC. I was really thinking more of the necropolitan and traditional fantasy tropes.

Pocket rogue would be taking a bunch of rogue levels on the other side of the gestalt (going psion 1/rogue 5 most likely. Netting you third level powers and 3d6+6 sneak attack that would then apply to everything in the setting; I can think of a few ways to get that to over six attacks a round too).

[dither]

For the unbodied, I was thinking you would take one level of psion at first level (with gestalt), then take all the other levels as wizard or archivist. Voila. Full BAB, d8 hit die, 3rd level spells and powers. Plus the unbodied abilities.

My concerns with the immunities was more of those the player characters would have. I was thinking of an elf someone might choose to play, rather than an NPC. I was really thinking more of the necropolitan and traditional fantasy tropes.

Pocket rogue would be taking a bunch of rogue levels on the other side of the gestalt (going psion 1/rogue 5 most likely. Netting you third level powers and 3d6+6 sneak attack that would then apply to everything in the setting; I can think of a few ways to get that to over six attacks a round too).

The thing with the unbodied doesn't particularly bother me because you really have to be willing to play a psionic freak in order to benefit from it. That's going to turn enough people off of it on virtue of its aberrant nature ... actually, I might just make it an aberration instead of a monstrous humanoid. (d8; 3/4 BAB; good Will; 2 skills) I think it would fit the flavor better, too. Plus, aberrations sort of have a thing for psionics.

What might be fun is going unbodied // psion 1/psywar 5 and picking up the illithid heritage feats. So then you're a SPOOKY INCORPOREAL SQUID-FACED MONSTER^TM. (OF DOOM^TM.) You can have the benefits of being incorporeal and mean-and-beefy, with psion 5/psywar 5 manifesting.

The stronger the PCs are, the tougher I'll make the fights. Simple as that.

...

As for the necropolitan/lich, I think I can easily make them one of the exceptions to the cool-immunities thing. I don't have a problem with the PCs having immunities. What bugs me is the monsters having immunities that make PC abilities lame.

[ErhnamDJ]

The illithid heritage feats were one of the things I was thinking of. And what do you mean by 'psionic freak?' They're nothing compared to some of the things I see tossed around.

I actually like the monster immunities. Rather than the spellcasters being able to toss out the same uberspells round after round, day after day, they have to plan for all sorts of possibilities. I like the wizard having the option to screw up when choosing his spells. It's even more pronounced in E6 because he has so few spells a day to choose from.

[Surreal]

I'm a fuzzy maybe. I'm already in two PbPs, so adding a third might not be wise.

Are you handling LA as per standard E6 rules? (ie: reduced point buy)

The racial progressions for the Dryad and Unbodied look ok. The Dryad seems kinda meh (not bad meh, just nothing overly exciting), although the stats are nice, and you can qualify for Mindbender (and thus Mindsight) with it. I would change the tree dependency to simply apply a penalty to all rolls instead of modifying the stats, because recalculating a stat sheet sucks. The Unbodied looks cool, and I like the idea of an incorporeal face hugger

[BowenSilverclaw]

I think you can scratch me from the potential list of candidates. Gotta pull some extra effort the next couple of weeks to finish this year of uni.

Have fun, guys