Author Topic: Help me optimize my TWF pouncing warblade  (Read 3229 times)

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Nodaisho

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Help me optimize my TWF pouncing warblade
« on: June 04, 2009, 10:03:44 PM »
I'm going to be playing in a new campaign in the PbP area, and since I have limited experience making anything above sixth level, I'm asking for help making sure this isn't going to suck.

The OP, containing the house rules:
[spoiler]
Starting level 13, 40PB. Max HP.

If your character uses Persist Spell or takes levels in DweomerKeeper/Incantatrix/Shadowcraft Mage. They are too powerful. If they are a full caster with other PrCs, they are fine. If they can compete on that level, they are fine.

Polymorph doesn't exist. If you have an LA race you want to play, let me know and I'll tell you what it counts as/changes to reduce it's LA. Also tell me what you like about it and why you want it.

As for the plot. A crazy dungeon has appeared that ate several level 9-11 parties without a trace. You guys are people who want to look into this for whatever reason.

This dungeon is hardcore. It takes into account things like teleport/earthglide/X ray vision/ect. Instead of arbitrarily banning them like WLD or that one FR mountain.

Almost forgot: Feats: Two flaws at level 1 (technically optional, but whatever) two feats at level 1. One at every odd level after. Yes, Humans suck with this. But there are enough other races to choose from.
[/spoiler]

Wealth is by the book, which I believe is 110k for this level. There is no multiclass penalty.

I'm making a dex-focused TWF warblade, going into eternal blade at 11th, which sadly limits my options taking classes, as I can't take a single 3/4 or 1/2 BAB class. On the plus side, this makes my to hit rolls really good.

Good things about the current build: Perfect BAB, on path to get Island in Time, 15-20 crit rate, triple damage on charges when battle jumping, up to three pounces in a round when using sudden leap. 17th IL by 20th level, 10th currently. With Eternal blade, you can bypass any sort of DR for a round as a swift action, which means no golfbag required, don't even need metalline or whatever that one is that bypasses alignment DR.

Current issues: Despite how many feats you get, I want to get two more, one for greater TWF and one for improved weapon familiarity, so I could use lightblades rather than feycrafted scimitars. Also, the damage is largely precision based. That means I am currently pretty weak against anything immune to criticals. I have leading the charge to get better damage against them (3d4+39 per hit isn't bad, but could be better), but I think I might want to get some way to do precision damage to them, criticals if possible. Do the truedeath and destruction augment crystals do that, or just allow sneak attacks?

I'm not sure if the maneuvers are right yet, and I haven't completely filled out skills, this is a rough draft, since I know there will be a lot of work to be done.

Quote
Snow elf lion totem barbarian 1 / fighter 2 / warblade 4 / Champion of Corellon Larethian 2 / eternal blade 10 / ?? 1
barb 1 / fighter 2 / warblade 3 / ?? 1 / CoCL 2 / warblade +1 / eternal blade 3

Str: 14 (6 points)
Dex: 23 (16 points + 2 race + 3 level)
Con: 14 (6 points)
Int: 16 (10 points)
Wis: 10 (2 points)
Cha: 6  (0 points - 2 race)

AC: 24

feats:
iron heart aura (5)
weapon focus: scimitar (retrained from longsword) (flaw)
battle jump (1)
two weapon fighting (1)
weapon finesse (fighter 1)
mounted combat (fighter 2)
combat expertise (5)
expeditious dodge (3)
improved two weapon fighting (11)
leap of the heavens (flaw)
stormguard warrior (9)
improved critical: scimitar (13)

attacks:
+1 valorous feycraft scimitar, main hand. +19/14/9/4 1d4+9 15-20x2 (double damage on charge, triple if dropping 5 feet down)
+1 valorous feycraft scimitar, off hand. +19/14/9/4 1d4+8 15-20x2 (double damage on charge, triple if dropping 5 feet down)

in rage:
+21/16/11/6 or 19/19/14/9/4 1d4+11

charge action:
Main hand: +21/16/11/6 3d4+27 15-20/x2
Off hand: +21/16/11/6 3d4+24 15-20/x2

items
+1 valorous feycraft scimitars x2 (9515gp each, 19030 total) - allows dex to damage, high threat range, double damage on a charge
Celestial armor (22400gp, 41430 total) - +8 to AC with an 8 for max dex bonus. Also gives me more mobility with fly.


skills:
28 (barbarian) + 10 (fighter) + 35 (warblade) + 10 (CoCL) + 15 (eternal) = 98
Jump: 20 = 16 + 2 (str) + 2 (synergy)
Tumble: 24 = 16 + 6 (dex) + 2 (synergy)
Diplomacy: 2 = 4 (cross-class) - 2 (cha)
Knowledge (religion): 5 = 2 (cross-class) + 3 (int)
Concentration: 18 = 16 + 2 (con)

Maneuvers (8):
Sudden leap (1) - swift action pounce
Wall of blades (2) - extra AC for touch attacks
Action before thought (2) - extra insurance vs save or sucks
Moment of Perfect Mind (1) - will saves are low, concentration checks are high
Iron Heart Surge (3) - this shouldn't need explaining
Mind over Body (3) - avoiding natural failures seems good to me
Lightning recovery (4) - Because no, I don't think I want that attack to miss.
Dancing mongoose (5) - this with haste and frenzy makes for ten attacks per pounce.
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The Lurker

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Re: Help me optimize my TWF pouncing warblade
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2009, 04:35:48 AM »
Drop CoCL.  Just get the minimum dex for the TWF line (you have 40 PB, use it), and go strength based.  Saves you a feat on TWF, the two levels of a crappy PrC, and the feats to get into a crappy PrC.

LT Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 1/ Warblade 6/ Crusader 1 (to pick up crusader readied WRT and be able to get your EB maneuvers readied crusader style if you want)/ Warblade + at least 1 (sexy class feature at 7)/ +1 full bab/ EB

But yeah, TWF doesn't need to be dex based.

Nodaisho

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Re: Help me optimize my TWF pouncing warblade
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2009, 05:14:08 AM »
Huh, good point. The dex-based bit was a holdover from a previous idea, which involved a pixie (when you have +8 dex, but -4 strength, I think dex would work a bit better). Also, earlier on I thought I would be able to get 3x dex to damage, before feycraft turned out to actually be a bonus to hit (pretty much weapon finesse), and I remembered you had to be in a shadow hand stance for shadow blade. Only downside I can see to strength-based now is that you only get half strength damage to your off-hand weapon.

What do you think about 2nd level crusader? Gets me two stances, if I'm in it deep and can't get reliable healing, Martial stance could be useful, especially if I made anything I wasn't sure about hitting into a touch attack with stoneguard warrior. I could get leading the charge from it as well, letting me get an iron heart stance and blood in the water with my warblade stances.

When you say minimum dex for the TWF line, do you mean 19 or 20? 19 is minimum, but it seems to me like if you are going to get 19, you might as well get 20.
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Negative Zero

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Re: Help me optimize my TWF pouncing warblade
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2009, 06:06:24 AM »
Yeah, the X Stat to Y Bonus thread has Feycraft listed incorrectly. It's caught me more than once.

BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Help me optimize my TWF pouncing warblade
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2009, 07:27:54 AM »
If you go Strength based the Revenant Blade PrC might be worth it, getting full Str to all attacks and some more goodies, you just need to use a Valenar Double Scimitar for it.

Otherwise Bloodclaw Master is nice for full Str to all attacks with Tiger Claw weapons, and it actually gives you some more maneuvers :)

EDIT: Unfortunately BCM is 3/4 BAB IIRC...

And Revenant Blade doesn't advance IL. It's still a good PrC though :)
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Nodaisho

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Re: Help me optimize my TWF pouncing warblade
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2009, 08:09:37 AM »
Wait, does that do what I think it does? I don't have the book, but from first look at the handbook, it looks like you can PA with both ends of a double weapon. That seems like it could be abused, especially when you consider that stormguard warrior allows you to put those low bonus attacks to use, and that with leap attack, valorous, and battle jump on a two-handed weapon, you are at a 5:1 ratio of damage to penalty. The extra feats could also be nice, since it isn't like I need improved critical or the like for a prerequisite.

Ah, I see, that ability is the capstone, and I probably couldn't wrangle being in that class long enough to get it. Might still be worth a few levels, I'll have to find it to find out.
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BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Help me optimize my TWF pouncing warblade
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2009, 08:27:06 AM »
Yeah, it's pretty damn good. If you wanted IL 17 at level 20 though you'd need to drop all Barbarian and Fighter levels, which means ditching Pounce and Whirling Frenzy.

So the question becomes, do you want Pounce, Whirling Frenzy and this PrC, or do you want 9th level maneuvers at level 20 (and bear in mind that PbP's tend to be pretty slow, so that'll take a while, assuming we ever get there) ;)
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Nodaisho

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Re: Help me optimize my TWF pouncing warblade
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2009, 09:15:05 AM »
I've found that when I base my characters off of the assumption that they won't get to a certain level, they invariably do, and it screws me over. Of course, it is far more likely that my character will die a terrible death, even if we do get to level 20.

I might dip into it, but I don't think I'll take it all the way. Then again, the one level dip gets two feats, which is also what I have to invest into the class, so unless I like the feats or the class abilities, I probably won't take it. Lurker's idea seems good, since it gives me more maneuvers and stances, as well as some access to Devoted Spirit aside from Eternal Blade.

I could go barbarian 1 / ranger 1 / warblade 3 / Revenant blade 5 / eternal blade 3, but that would weaken my maneuvers, and only give me one stance.

What would you suggest if I were to take Revenant blade, level-wise?
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BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Help me optimize my TWF pouncing warblade
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2009, 10:02:33 AM »
If you take Revenant Blade, take it all the way, if that's what you mean.

Barb 1/Rgr 1 (for the skills I take it?)/Warblade 3/RB 5/EB 3 looks pretty good :)

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woodenbandman

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Re: Help me optimize my TWF pouncing warblade
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2009, 03:10:19 PM »
BCM is full BAB.

At that critical range, aim for Bodyfeeder, from the Expanded Psionics Handbook. Temp HP equal to the damage of a critical hit (I believe) is sexy as hell. Mindfeeder is really much better depending on your build (who doesn't like bonus PP?), but bodyfeeder's nice.

Anything for bonus damage is nice, such as Holy.

Also strength based is better. Get that Tiger Claw knockback thing, and maybe toss in some Bear Warrior.

Nodaisho

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Re: Help me optimize my TWF pouncing warblade
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2009, 06:08:20 PM »
So far, I just have it using +1 valorous kukris, I'll probably go for bodyfeeder once I can afford the extra cost. I hadn't remembered that one, that is pretty nasty with that critical range and the 4x damage multiplier I would be getting on a critical.

By BCM you mean Bloodclaw Master, right? I checked, and unless that was included in an errata, it is 3/4 BAB.

The problem with Bear Warrior is that I assume I wouldn't be able to use the kukris during that, which means I would end up doubling my damage rather than tripling it, which isn't worth the 2 extra damage. Also, it requires power attack, which I think I could put to better use with another feat.

What is a full BAB class that grants a lot of the knowledge skills used by knowledge devotion? I'm thinking of taking Knowledge devotion, which next level will be even more useful with Eternal Knowledge.

I'll post up what I have so far once I tidy it up a bit.
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Nodaisho

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Re: Help me optimize my TWF pouncing warblade
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2009, 12:13:25 AM »
All right, here's what I've got so far:

Quote
Snow elf lion totem barbarian 1 / fighter  / warblade 7 / crusader 1 / eternal blade 10 /
barb 1 / fighter 1 / warblade 7 / crusader 1 / eternal blade 3

Str: 25 (16 points + 3 level + 4 item)
Dex: 20 (10 points + 2 race + 2 item)
Con: 14 (6 points)
Int: 14 (6 points)
Wis: 10 (2 points)
Cha: 6  (0 points - 2 race)

feats:
leap of the heavens (flaw)
Educated (flaw)
battle jump (1)
two weapon fighting (1)
weapon focus: kukri (retrained from longsword) (fighter 1)
Knowledge Devotion (3)
Improved Initiative (5)
Ironheart Aura (warblade 5)
stormguard warrior (7)
improved two weapon fighting (9)
greater two weapon fighting (11)
improved critical: kukri (13)

items
+1 valorous kukris x2 (8308gp each, 16616 total) - high threat range, double damage on a charge
Celestial armor (22400gp, 39016 total) - +8 to AC with an 8 for max dex bonus. Also gives me more mobility with fly.
+2 dextrous gauntlets of war (4000gp + 4000gpx1.5 = 10000, 49016)
masterwork jumping Boots of striding and springing (5,500gp + 50x1.5 - , 54591)
Ring of Haste (12,000, 66591)
Belt of Giant Strength Battle (16000+(12000)1.5 = 34000, 100591 total)

skills:
24 (barbarian) + 4 (fighter) + 42 (warblade) + 6 (crusader) + 12 (eternal) = 90
Jump: 34 = 16 + 5 (str) + 2 (synergy) + 5 (boots) + 4 (speed) +5 (when running) +2 (masterwork tools)
Tumble: 23 = 16 + 5 (dex) + 2 (synergy)
Concentration: 20 = 16 + 4 (con)
Knowledge (arcana): at least 1 point
Knowledge (dungeoneering): at least 1 point
Knowledge (religion): at least 1 point
Knowledge (planes): at least 1 point
Knowledge (nature): at least 1 point

Skill tricks:
Collector of stories

Manifester levels: Warblade: 11.5, Crusader 9

Maneuvers:

Warblade:
Sudden leap
Moment of Perfect Mind
Wolf Fang Strike
Wall of Blades
Ironheart Surge
Lightning Recovery
Mind over Body
Action Before Thought
Moment of Alacrity

Crusader:
White Raven Tactics
Leading the Charge
Vanguard Strike
Charging Minotaur
Lion's roar

Stances:
Blood in the Water
Absolute Steel
Leading the Charge

Level 1 (Br1): Whirling frenzy, pounce, battle jump, Educated, leap of the heavens, two weapon fighting
Level 2 (Ft1): Weapon Focus
Level 3(WB1): Weapon aptitude, Battle Clarity, Knowledge Devotion, (sudden leap, blood in the water, moment of perfect mind, wolf fang strike)
Level 4(WB2): Uncanny Dodge, Ironheart Aura, (Action Before Thought)
Level 5(WB3): Battle Ardor, Improved Initiative, (Wall of Blades)
Level 6(WB4): (Absolute Steel, Mind over Body [retrain wolf fang strike])
Level 7(WB5): Ironheart Aura, Stoneguard Warrior, (Ironheart Surge)
Level 8(WB6): Improved Uncanny Dodge
Level 9(WB7): Battle Cunning, Improved TWF, (Lightning Recovery)
Level 10(Cr1): Furious Counterstrike, Steely resolve 5, (White Raven Tactics, Leading the Charge, Vanguard Strike, Charging Minotaur, Lion's roar)
Level 11(EB1): Blade Guide, Eternal Training 1/day, Greater TWF, (maneuver)
Level 12(EB2): Guided Strike
Level 13(EB3): Armored Uncanny Dodge, Eternal Training 2/day, Improved Critical, (Moment of alacrity)

I'm thinking I want more constitution and intelligence, I will probably drop the haste ring in favor of at least a +2 item for each of those. Attack damage is currently at 1d4+11 or 1d4+7 with a 15-20 crit range, triple damage on a battle jump, and +20 to hit before charge modifiers, I get attacks at +20/20/15/15/10/10, I'll probably turn the 10s into touch attacks with Stoneguard warrior to hopefully get an extra 5 or 10 damage on each attack the next round, before doubling or tripling. I'm using Knowledge devotion to be able to get a bonus to hit and damage on just about everything, and when I get eternal knowledge, I'll have that apply to the two best categories, would the blade guide be able to make an aid another check?
The more I see of people, the more I love my dog.