Author Topic: crazy gestalt fun  (Read 4419 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Nelith

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 12
crazy gestalt fun
« on: May 19, 2009, 06:48:00 PM »
alright, so I guess I'm involved in a battle with lvl 20 gestalts, and one of my opponents is going to be a warblade/sorcerer/incantatrix and something else, which he says will give him a full BAB and full casting. Another fun fact, I guess all spells are allowed(Including Dysjunction). What would be the best way to go about beating him?

Also, I'd like someone to explain to me why unarmed swordsage is better than monk, because I just don't see it.(I'm going to have two characters ready, one martial, one caster)

Rebel7284

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1585
Re: crazy gestalt fun
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2009, 06:50:48 PM »
you're asking why maneuvers are better than monk's crappy class features?

edit: we also need more information about the arena(?) or wherever this is taking place.  Also the short answer is play a caster and win initiative.  Also, what sources are allowed for character creation
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 06:54:03 PM by Rebel7284 »
Negative level on a chicken would make it a wight the next day.  Chicken the other wight meat. -borg286

Nelith

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 12
Re: crazy gestalt fun
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2009, 06:59:15 PM »
you're asking why maneuvers are better than monk's crappy class features?

edit: we also need more information about the arena(?) or wherever this is taking place.  Also the short answer is play a caster and win initiative.  Also, what sources are allowed for character creation

Well, the flurry can help a little...

anyways, the arena will probably be just a large open area, but since we don't have all the details fleshed out, I might be able to get it to be something with more features to it.

Any book is allowed, but nothing too crazy(punpun, a character that hits the opponent with the earth, etc...)

woodenbandman

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2188
    • Email
Re: crazy gestalt fun
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2009, 07:01:21 PM »
Unarmed swordsage is better than monk mainly because having maneuvers is >> not having them, but there are other reasons such as more skillpoints and the ability to wear armor.

What you want to do in order to beat this guy is probably go something like Druid//Wizard, Archivist//Wizard... anything with wizard. Mainly though, since he's also a full caster, you'll have to play it smart. He's not very synergized in terms of his stats (he needs int, cha, str, dex, and con.) Pick something that needs only 1 stat and stick to it. This is why druid is especially potent.

Since all spells are specifically allowed, all you need to do is to cast venomfire, share it with your animal companion using Companion Spellbound (Complete Adventurer, I believe), and go to town. One batch of hits should knock him out.

You build should probably be something like Druid//Cleric, with a DMM focus. Check this build out:
LN
Druid20//Cloistered Cleric3/Church Inquisitor2/Any cleric prestige class, really.

If buff rounds are allowed, you don't really need divine metamagic. Otherwise, it's always nice to open up with a DMM quickened anything. Here's how I suggest your first round goes:

DMM quickened Bite of the Werebear
DMM(that one that reduces it from full round -> standard action) Summon Monster 9 (alternately: Gate).
Move Action: Wild Shape into either a Fleshraker or a Dire Polar Bear.

Next round: Summons attack, DMM quickened Venomfire (if you're a fleshraker (your animal companion is a fleshraker))
Pounce on the enemy for ludicrous damage.

You only need Wisdom and charisma, and you don't really even need charisma. Feat tree goes like this:
1st, bonus, flaw, flaw, are all extra turning.
3rd: That one metamagic I can't remember.
6th: Natural Spell
9th: Quicken Spell
12th: DMM quicken
15th: DMM that other metamagic
18th: Maybe chain spell for some cool Chained Greater Magic Fang (alternately, superior magic fang from SpC), but chained Magic Vestment is hard to beat.

Gear is standard Wild Dragonhide Breastplate, monk belt + wildling clasp. Maybe even a metamagic rod or 2.

Beware if he has celerity. In fact, pick up the spell domain for Greater Anyspell to cast Celerity. Also trade the Law domain for Law Devotion.

PhaedrusXY

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8022
  • Advanced Spambot
Re: crazy gestalt fun
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2009, 07:07:11 PM »
More details. More details. More details.

In arena matches it is all about the specific rules.

1) What are the limitations on having pre-existing buffs in place before the match starts? (Do you get buff rounds? Can you have long duration buffs? Permanent spells? Contingent Spells (from Craft Contingent Spell feat)? etc.

2) Are disposable items allowed? Are there any limitations on their use? (I.e., Can I buy a Staff of Gate, and just swarm the other guy with 50 Half-Celestial Great Wyrm Gold Dragons?)

3) Can you leave the arena at all (go Ethereal, etc)? (If no, it eliminates some strategies but also opens up just Bull Rushing the other guy into an open Gate to win)?

4) Are custom magic items allowed?

5) How are you dealing with races with level adjustments?

Having said that, and not knowing the answers yet, I'd suggest Psion 20/Wilder 20 for a contestant (add some PrCs and/or LA races on the Wilder side, instead of going all the way to 20). Stick a Temporal Acceleration into a pre-cast Contingency. Basically, whoever goes first wins, and Psions have a slight advantage here, depending on whether or not Craft Contingent Spell is allowed (if it is, it comes down to has the cheesiest contingency chain).
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 07:08:54 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Rebel7284

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1585
Re: crazy gestalt fun
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2009, 07:34:45 PM »
It all comes down to who goes first and has the extra actions. 

Neutral Grey Elf
Cleric 1/Factotum 8/Dread Necromancer 1/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 7/XX2
Elf Generalist Martial Wizard 5/Random Wizard PrCs

Take a bunch of swift and standard action with a hummingbird familiar and factotum's int to initiative helping you go first.  Also an eager warning weapon.

edit: also improved familiar and a familiar with a wand are good strategies. :)
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 07:36:55 PM by Rebel7284 »
Negative level on a chicken would make it a wight the next day.  Chicken the other wight meat. -borg286

veekie

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 9034
  • WARNING: Homing Miko
Re: crazy gestalt fun
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2009, 07:36:28 PM »
I suppose if you really like the monk theres the Sorcadin+Monk+Hexblade, on Gestalt...
Saves and AC through the roof.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

jameswilliamogle

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1279
    • Email
Re: crazy gestalt fun
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2009, 08:02:31 PM »
Catfolk 1 / Spellthief 19 // Sorcerer 20 (or, more realistically, some variation of it)

Foresight + Celerity + Timestop + Superior Invisibility + Delay Spell / Orb spells + Wraithstrike / TWF + Steal Spell / Steal Spell Effect / Steal SLA.  Steal EVERY spell he's got running in the first round, as well as spells he's about to cast.

They can have Foresight + Celerity, too, but it doesn't matter - your Dex should be higher.

Nelith

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 12
Re: crazy gestalt fun
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2009, 08:16:54 PM »
I suppose if you really like the monk theres the Sorcadin+Monk+Hexblade, on Gestalt...
Saves and AC through the roof.

Actually, I really like that idea... but I'm not sure about lvls, and I guess now I might wind up switching monk for the swordsage, and maybe do something different with the hexblade. Add in halfling, and thats a +1 to everything.

Now I'm thinking, in case he wants to throw Mage's Disjunction at me, I might go with VoP, which will still give me some nice saves, ability bonuses, resistances, etc, and throw some aging onto that to increase stats even more.

edit: alright, ive calculated the scores and everything....
If we go with a 18 17 16 15 14 13 score setup like we were thinking(put some extra power in there), I'd wind up with:
STR:5 (-3)
DEX:12(+1)
CON:11(0)
INT,WIS, CHA will depend on build, but have 21(+5), 26 (+8), and 33(+11)

I'd really like to get Serenity(from Dragon Magazine), but I dunno if DM is allowed. If I do, I'd probably put my highest in Wisdom, and instead of Sorc, use Generic Divine caster, maybe a real DC class. then I'd probably have a will save(including divine grace, switched to wisdom) of my base save+26. I don't know what the base save is yet because I don't know what I'm going to go.

I think I'm going to take Intuitive Attack to use Wis on attacks(still have monk or unarmed SS), since I've got plenty of Exalted Feats.
My AC would be 35(11 Wis, 1 dex, 1 size(halfling), 10 VoP, 2 VoP Nat Armor)
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 08:43:10 PM by Nelith »

veekie

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 9034
  • WARNING: Homing Miko
Re: crazy gestalt fun
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2009, 08:51:20 PM »
Well, if you've got sorc AND monk, why not spring for the Ascetic Mage, to make the monk AC Cha based?
On top of the Hexblade, that's Evasion, Mettle, and Cha to AC and all saves.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

woodenbandman

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2188
    • Email
Re: crazy gestalt fun
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2009, 09:08:02 PM »
No VoP is necessary, just get your familiar to ready an action to counterspell his Disjunction with another Disjunction from a staff of disjunction.

PhaedrusXY

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8022
  • Advanced Spambot
Re: crazy gestalt fun
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2009, 09:12:24 PM »
No VoP is necessary, just get your familiar to ready an action to counterspell his Disjunction with another Disjunction from a staff of disjunction.
A wand of Dimension Door is cheaper. It can ready an action to DD both of you to safety. :p The Staff might come in handy for nuking the other mage with, though.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

woodenbandman

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2188
    • Email
Re: crazy gestalt fun
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2009, 09:14:45 PM »
Or, hey, you could just do the shadow miracle spam trick, and quicken it, too. Incantatrix gnome wizard with substitution level lets you prepare a quickened silent image in a 9th level slot (arcane thesis + crap like that) and it'll be a quickened miracle if you want it to be.

EDIT: Shadowcraft Mage is necessary.

Nelith

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 12
Re: crazy gestalt fun
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2009, 09:45:52 PM »
actually, I think I'll stick to the Vow of Poverty. as of right now, I have a rediculously high will save, and a very high AC, and when I apply a spell or 2, I can boost everything even more. Plus it's more fun to be able to do all this without magic items. I'm not even sure what feats to take...
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 09:49:30 PM by Nelith »

Operation Shoestring

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 937
  • Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
    • Email
Re: crazy gestalt fun
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2009, 09:53:35 PM »
If you're going VoP, PLEASE tell me your class features or race/templates give you a way to fly?

lack of fly-age is a huge weakness of VoP.

Nelith

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 12
Re: crazy gestalt fun
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2009, 10:23:17 PM »
If you're going VoP, PLEASE tell me your class features or race/templates give you a way to fly?

lack of fly-age is a huge weakness of VoP.

well, I don't usually fly anyways, so it's not much of a loss for me...
If I wanted to though, there's always the spell, or I could summon something to ride on or something...

I'm a Paladin(of Tyranny)2/Hexblade3/Generic(charisma)spellcaster15/Monk20
Most of my build focuses on Charisma, with a little Wisdom thrown in.
As for feats, so far I have:
Sacred Vow
Vow of Poverty
Intuitive Attack
Aesthetic Mage
Force of Personality

I'll probably focus the rest on metamagic and such.

woodenbandman

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2188
    • Email
Re: crazy gestalt fun
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2009, 10:51:51 PM »
No, bad, wrong, do it over.

Paladin of Tyranny2/Hexblade3/Monk2/Anything else//Sorceror 20. There's absolutely no reason to lose 5 caster levels.

Nelith

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 12
Re: crazy gestalt fun
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2009, 11:21:14 PM »
No, bad, wrong, do it over.

Paladin of Tyranny2/Hexblade3/Monk2/Anything else//Sorceror 20. There's absolutely no reason to lose 5 caster levels.

Well, I was thinking of doing the paladin and hex the same, then doing a monk 15 and caster 20.
Didn't do it because it had better saves and some more bonuses, and I didn't really need the last 2 spell levels(thats where all the cheese is, and I am lactose intolerant.) I'm taking the feat for +4 CL anyways, so my spell saves and effects shouldn't suffer much.

And I'm taking the Generic Caster from UA because it's still decent casting, you choose the save, and it gives bonus feats.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 11:26:08 PM by Nelith »

PhaedrusXY

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8022
  • Advanced Spambot
Re: crazy gestalt fun
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2009, 11:30:09 PM »
and I didn't really need the last 2 spell levels(thats where all the cheese is, and I am lactose intolerant.)
Then you will die horribly. Just what kind of "game" do you think you're joining? Level 20 gestalt arena match? Sounds like Gouda to me.

And no ability to fly with VoP in this kind of game? Your character might as well just commit suicide now, and save you the trouble.

Good luck. I won't be wasting my time checking on this thread anymore, since you seem to have an aversion to good advice (and good sense).
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 11:35:46 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Nelith

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 12
Re: crazy gestalt fun
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2009, 12:17:35 AM »
and I didn't really need the last 2 spell levels(thats where all the cheese is, and I am lactose intolerant.)
Then you will die horribly. Just what kind of "game" do you think you're joining? Level 20 gestalt arena match? Sounds like Gouda to me.

And no ability to fly with VoP in this kind of game? Your character might as well just commit suicide now, and save you the trouble.

Good luck. I won't be wasting my time checking on this thread anymore, since you seem to have an aversion to good advice (and good sense).

wow. that was a little harsh... It's not supposed to be all caster, and our group doesn't ever use flying... and we're supposed to try and stay away from things that will break too horribly...

and btw, just found out it's lvl 21, so i get an epic feat too(just went 21 monk and 16 caster)