Author Topic: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?  (Read 8138 times)

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Orion

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what is this '4e' thing you speak of?
« on: May 28, 2008, 07:44:57 PM »
No, I don't live under a rock, but I haven't been slavishly following the leaks and press releases, so I was wondering if anyone would be willing to provide a quick summary of the major differences between 4e and 3.x? I'd like to get a sense of how it works.

Squash Monster

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Re: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2008, 10:06:53 PM »
Spells, maneuvers, and many other class features are now powers.  Powers come in at-will, per-encounter, and daily flavors.  Your class gives you two at-will powers (chosen from four or five) which last your whole career, and you get a new power from your class every other level.  Thus, all class progressions are the same as eachother, but have more options than a 3E one.  Multiclassing is done by grabbing feats that let you swap your powers out for ones from another class; the number of these you can do is limited.

Each class has a role - this is nothing new, but now they admit to it in the book.  The roles are better than the classic 4, and very reminiscent of City of Heroes (not WoW, which you will hear far too often).  Monsters, too, have roles; and they are expected to be used in parties.  Characters have strict tiers of power: heroic, paragon, and epic.  Paragon characters get a paragon path: something like a gestalt prestige class.  Epic characters get an epic destiny (same idea).  You can replace your paragon path with farther multiclassing if you already picked up all the multiclassing feats.

Full attacks are gone, 5' steps (now 1square slides) are move-equivalent actions.

Most races give you a series of minor bonuses and a power of some sort.  These powers can get very useful.

(That's all I can think of)

Runestar

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Re: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2008, 12:01:03 AM »
You apparently do a lot less damage now (relative to the monsters' hp), so combat will last longer, and should be less susceptible to upsets like save-or-die or x4 criticals.
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PhoenixInferno

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Re: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2008, 12:36:26 AM »
In exchange for more rounds OF combat, each round of combat is promised to be shorter, so instead of spending time rolling dice for multiple attacks, you make more tactical decisions.

the_taken

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Re: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2008, 12:46:08 AM »
My highlights:
  • There are no "saves". There are four defences, AC, Fort, Reflex, Will, which all follow the same rules.
  • To make a normal monster a solo (boss) monster, multiply it's HP by 32, or 40 if it's over lvl10. Also, it gets a +5 bonus to saving throws. :wall
    You won't be using solo monsters
  • There is, however, a very clear definition as to what level appropriate damage is. It looks to me like they stuck to it.
  • I hate the new saving throw system.
  • I really hate the new saving throw system.
  • The Monster Manual is very vague on the personalities of pretty much every single entry beyond their motivation to fight.
  • In the DMG, the guidelines for interacting with non-combat NPCs sounds like description of what happens when you click on an NPC.
  • Actually, the stuff on social interaction with NPCs and monsters in general is leaving me dissatisfied.
  • Two words: Town Portal
    Pages 307-308
  • You will not want to craft items. Ever.
  • Optionally: No plot. No dungeon master. Violence only. Final Destination. :wall
    Since our monsters are nothing but homicidal maniacs with bling we want, this is the only option.
  • I'd ask for a refund, but I've got a bootleg copy. :D

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« Last Edit: May 29, 2008, 01:25:28 AM by the_taken »

PhoenixInferno

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Re: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2008, 12:56:02 AM »
You are confusing a combat-oriented rules system with "wah, t3h r0le-pl@ying iz g0n!"

AfterCrescent

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Re: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2008, 12:58:08 AM »
You are confusing a combat-oriented rules system with "wah, t3h r0le-pl@ying iz g0n!"
Well he does raise two questions.
1. Is there any flavor in the monster manual beyond a motivation to fight and tactics involved when they fight?
2. Is crafting really terrible? Did they make it less attractive than in 3.5?
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yellerSumner

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Re: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2008, 01:00:22 AM »
  • Two words: Town Portal
  • I'd ask for a refund, but I've got a bootleg copy. :D

  • Page Number?
  • I must  :clap  your honesty.  Though, you could ask for a refund for your time.

PhoenixInferno

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Re: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2008, 01:07:10 AM »
You are confusing a combat-oriented rules system with "wah, t3h r0le-pl@ying iz g0n!"
Well he does raise two questions.
Not really - more like inflames the alarmist in all of us.
Quote
1. Is there any flavor in the monster manual beyond a motivation to fight and tactics involved when they fight?
I didn't see the Monster Manual yet, but from what I can see, that's not too far off the mark.  But, its not a negative in and of itself.  For example, this means you get to flavor the monsters yourself - how is that bad, except for the truly lazy or truly stupid?
Quote
2. Is crafting really terrible? Did they make it less attractive than in 3.5?
If you mean its terrible because it fixes the "XP is Like a River", then yes.

AfterCrescent

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Re: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2008, 01:12:47 AM »
I didn't see the Monster Manual yet, but from what I can see, that's not too far off the mark.  But, its not a negative in and of itself.  For example, this means you get to flavor the monsters yourself - how is that bad, except for the truly lazy or truly stupid?
I personally like having some predesigned flavor in the monsters. It helps when I get a new book, find something cool, and want to implement it for that week's session and don't have 6 hours to come up with the flavor for that creature.  I've always been of the mind that I can change the flavor if I see fit, so having some explaining the monsters wouldn't be a terrible thing. It's not essential or detrimental to 4e, but it would have been nice.
Quote
If you mean its terrible because it fixes the "XP is Like a River", then yes.
Not quite sure what you mean. I never thought crafting was an attractive option (magical or mundane) it's just not efficient -time wise- in a standard D&D game. But I'll reserve judgment to see exactly how it works in 4e.
The cake is a lie.
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Clerics just wake up one morning and decide they need to kick ass, and it needs to be kicked NOW. ~veekie

PhoenixInferno

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Re: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2008, 01:22:46 AM »
Quote
If you mean its terrible because it fixes the "XP is Like a River", then yes.
Not quite sure what you mean. I never thought crafting was an attractive option (magical or mundane) it's just not efficient -time wise- in a standard D&D game. But I'll reserve judgment to see exactly how it works in 4e.
Crafting is a ritual.  You can read about rituals in today's Player's Handbook excerpt and gain some understanding of Item Creation, although there may be some things missing because they don't talk about the specific item creation ritual(s?) itself.

AfterCrescent

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Re: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2008, 01:27:35 AM »
Gotta say I like the fix they've done for Raise Dead, at least.
The cake is a lie.
Need to play table top? Get your game on at:
Brilliant Gameologists' PbP Forum. Do it, you know you want to.
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The 13th Guard - An alternate history campaign idea.
Clerics just wake up one morning and decide they need to kick ass, and it needs to be kicked NOW. ~veekie

the_taken

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Re: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2008, 01:47:37 AM »
Page Number?

Good idea. Pages 307-308. Notice the bolded text? Keep reading


-------

After my third skim thru the 4eDMG and 4ePHB, I have not found rules for creating characters above first level.

yellerSumner

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Re: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2008, 01:57:39 AM »
Ah.  I need to get focused enough to read and not just skim.


Starting above first is on 4eDMG143.

ImperiousLeader

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Re: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2008, 02:07:42 AM »
After my third skim thru the 4eDMG and 4ePHB, I have not found rules for creating characters above first level.

DM's Guide, page 143. Or an except from two weeks ago.

LogicNinja

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Re: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2008, 02:30:19 AM »
To make a normal monster a solo (boss) monster, multiply it's HP by 32, or 40 if it's over lvl10. Also, it gets a +5 bonus to saving throws.
You won't be using solo monsters
Why won't you be using solo monsters?

Quote
I hate the new saving throw system. I really hate the new saving throw system.
"Saving Throw" is a misnomer. 4E saving throws are like 3E *durations*.

Quote
In the DMG, the guidelines for interacting with non-combat NPCs sounds like description of what happens when you click on an NPC. Actually, the stuff on social interaction with NPCs and monsters in general is leaving me dissatisfied.
What... what did you want them to say?

Quote
Two words: Town Portal
Or, you know, a cross between Teleport and Word of Recall. Taking out Teleport is for the best.

Quote
You will not want to craft items. Ever.
Sure you will. That's how to get the exact items you want.

Quote
Optionally: No plot. No dungeon master. Violence only. Final Destination. :wall
Some people play hack-and-slash D&D. The offhandedly-mentioned ability to run a quick hack-and-slash session (while waiting for someone to show up, say) is bad?

Quote
Since our monsters are nothing but homicidal maniacs with bling we want, this is the only option. I'd ask for a refund, but I've got a bootleg copy. :D
You're a big boy. Give your NPCs motivations on your own. A generic "all Xs react like Y" monster blurb is useless. Seriously, did the 3E MM ever help you run a monster personality-wise? I managed to do it all on my own.

Quote
It's the Diablo PnPG you weren't expecting. Not bad as that, but I wanted an RPG. I won't be playing this game.
It's a game of D&D that's good at *what D&D has always been for*. And better at the rest of it, thanks to skill challenges.

Josh

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Re: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2008, 03:13:44 AM »
I am looking forward to a good old fashioned Dungeon crawl. 

I really want to do a remake of B1-9 In search of adventure.

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Orion

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Re: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2008, 07:15:59 AM »
Thanks for the notes, all. Does every 4e discussion turn into this kind of heated debate?

Radijs

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Re: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2008, 07:44:23 AM »
Yes, by now its a tradition. :)
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the_taken

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Re: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2008, 10:38:03 AM »
Well, teh pros take it apart limb from limb: *4ed*

Gets good around page 4.