Author Topic: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?  (Read 5713 times)

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pfooti

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Re: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2008, 02:44:04 PM »
Thanks for the notes, all. Does every 4e discussion turn into this kind of heated debate?

I think a lot of the debate is more around comparing 4e to 3e, rather than debating the merits of 4e as a game in itself. I think we'll have to wait a bit before we get out of this phase.

AlienFromBeyond

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Re: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2008, 07:47:43 PM »
You should see the shitstorms on /tg/ on 4chan. Man those guys hate 4E.

heffroncm

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Re: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2008, 07:59:56 PM »
All of the 4e shitstorms remind me exactly of the 3e shitstorms from years ago.  Some of the rhetoric and arguments used are EXACTLY THE SAME.  Particularly the arguments about PC HP and the amount of healing.  I remember one detailed post about how 3e was going to be a "game of invulnerable superheroes who laugh off the most intense beatings."

brislove

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Re: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2008, 08:47:59 PM »
people like to complain, but ultimately they will play whatever is better in the long run. "nobody" was going to switch to 3.0, then nobody was going to switch to 3.5. People will play the best system for their game. It just might take them a while to switch. I know some guys that refused to try 3.5, until a friend of their wanted to DM a campaign in it...they played 2e again at gencon last year, and couldn't believe how bad it was in comparison lol.

LogicNinja

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Re: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2008, 08:49:47 PM »
You should see the shitstorms on /tg/ on 4chan. Man those guys hate 4E.

Those guys hate everything.

AlienFromBeyond

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Re: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2008, 09:02:23 PM »
You should see the shitstorms on /tg/ on 4chan. Man those guys hate 4E.

Those guys hate everything.
Not true, they love 40k, Dwarf Fortress, Dungeon Crawl, Space Hulk, drawfags (not derogatory), nerdraging, M:tG, Unknown Armies, etc. /tg/ is the only good board in 4chan now.

Shigunaru

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Re: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2008, 12:11:40 AM »
You should see the shitstorms on /tg/ on 4chan. Man those guys hate 4E.

Those guys hate everything.
Not true, they love 40k, Dwarf Fortress, Dungeon Crawl, Space Hulk, drawfags (not derogatory), nerdraging, M:tG, Unknown Armies, etc. /tg/ is the only good board in 4chan now.

You need to redefine "good board". Really.
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Cyrocloud

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Re: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2008, 11:03:33 PM »
that 4ed link was interesting but, I got board after the first page, so I guess I can't make a true judgement call but as it went on the guy seem to be getting used to the system, kinda like how little kids tend to say they hate something they've never had, and then try it and like it.

AlienFromBeyond

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Re: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2008, 11:39:51 PM »
You should see the shitstorms on /tg/ on 4chan. Man those guys hate 4E.

Those guys hate everything.
Not true, they love 40k, Dwarf Fortress, Dungeon Crawl, Space Hulk, drawfags (not derogatory), nerdraging, M:tG, Unknown Armies, etc. /tg/ is the only good board in 4chan now.

You need to redefine "good board". Really.
To each their own.

the_taken

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Re: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?
« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2008, 04:49:38 PM »
To make a normal monster a solo (boss) monster, multiply it's HP by 32, or 40 if it's over lvl10. Also, it gets a +5 bonus to saving throws.
You won't be using solo monsters
Why won't you be using solo monsters?

The damage output growth of the PCs and the HP growth of pretty much everything diverges as the levels increase, with Hp growing faster. The higher your level, the less relative damage you deal.
Solo monsters are supposed to be as powerful as a group of 5 PCs on their own, but they have 40 times the Hp of a regular monster of the same level. Put this on top of the fact that Hp grows faster than damage and you get longer and longer battles as the game goes on.

Quote
Quote
I hate the new saving throw system. I really hate the new saving throw system.
"Saving Throw" is a misnomer. 4E saving throws are like 3E *durations*.

I hate the new saving throw system with a passion. Applying a status condition to a regular monster will hamper it for one round. But then on the next, it has 50% chance of being back in business. This would be fine if fights only lasted a few rounds, but apparently your supposed to spend one hour to resolve a single battle. Combine this with the fact that combat rounds are supposed to be faster than in 3e, that means that your going to spend dozens of rounds fighting...

Quote
Quote
In the DMG, the guidelines for interacting with non-combat NPCs sounds like description of what happens when you click on an NPC. Actually, the stuff on social interaction with NPCs and monsters in general is leaving me dissatisfied.
What... what did you want them to say?

I dunno. Something like:
Quote from: Races of War
Orcs: The Endless War
Orcs are the product of a generations-long war against the other races. Unfortunately, they haven’t realized that they’ve lost this war. Why the war starts is simple: orcs are, as a race, stupid, ugly, and weak willed, but very strong. Being stupid, ugly and weak willed means that other races tend to always get the upper hand on them and tend to always get the better end of any deal, and other races also tend to not want Orcs around. Orc goods are always a little worse than goods produced by other races, and orcs are generally a little rowdier and less pleasant to be around.

At some point the orcs realize that they are much better in battle than other races, and they decide to fight for a little respect and fair treatment. Then the war is on. The only problem is that orcs win battles, but lose wars. Other races have natural advantages or just greater intelligence, so any war tends to go badly for the orcs in the long run. Powerful melee combat ability doesn’t mean much when elves attack from the bushes with longbows and then run way and all the races have superior battle plans and ability to lead their troops.

Once the war has been decisively won, the orcs are driven out of their lands and pushed into some badland, hinterland, or some other undesirable terrain far away from trade routes and civilization and usually full of monsters. The other races then go back to their lives, but here’s the trick: the orcs don’t. As far as the orcs are concerned, the war is still on because the orcs are still stuck in the worst land in their area, scraping by in the wilderness with minimal natural resources and almost no access to the products of civilization like arable farmlands, centuries-old cities, and trade goods like the products of skilled craftsmen from other lands (which can include magic items).

All of orc culture comes back to this issue. Orcs are constantly warring on other races not out of innate need for violence or evil inclinations, but because they are fighting for their survival as a race in lands considered undesirable by every other major race. Orc raids are not only for food and booty, but for all the things that orc culture cannot produce like tools and weapons. Without these things they cannot survive in the wilderness, and they cannot produce them in the wilderness living as nomads who hunt and gather for survival.

Orc hordes are not an indication of warlike racial tendencies, but of population issues. Once the orcish population in the badlands grows too large to be supportable, they must conquer new lands or else face death by famine and disease. Hordes are formed of “excess” young males that are sent off to carve out new lands or die trying…. both results ease the burden on the few resources in the badlands.

The fact that orcs are constantly in a war footing means that they easily offend other races with their tactics. Rather than fight elven guerilla fighters who sap their resources and manpower, they’ll burn the forest down, and rather than fight dwarves in their millennia-old and heavily entrenched deepnesses filled with traps, the orcs will collapse the tunnels and dig the booty out of the rubble. The fact that most races fight defensively means that orcs only gain tactical advantage by being extremely offensively-minded. The fact that orcs do not have supplies coming from the badlands means that while they have no supply trains to cut, they must conduct blitzkrieg-style war or face starvation, and they cannot afford to hold troops in reserve. They often just don’t have the resources needed to conduct honorable or civilized war, and their attacks seldom have finesse or timing on their side, meaning that they only win battles through overwhelming force. Night raids are their specialty, as they have darkvision and are sensitive to light.

Quote
Quote
Two words: Town Portal
Or, you know, a cross between Teleport and Word of Recall. Taking out Teleport is for the best.

I disagree with that notion, and it's incorrect. Teleport is now harder to set up, and harder to perform. It also has the potential to be exactly like way points in Diablo 2 (with a moderate cost), with the additional option of giving players the option to set up their own way points.

Quote
Quote
You will not want to craft items. Ever.
Sure you will. That's how to get the exact items you want.

I stand corrected. You will use the crafting rules to transform 5 +5 swords for 1 +5 flail. Or 5 +5 flails to transform for 1 +5 sword. Whatever. That's fine.

However, noone in their right mind will use the economy rules, as their just moronic. Trading 5 +5 swords for 1 +5 flail, or 5 +5 flails for 1 +5 sword, is just stupid. It doesn't make any sense. A +5 anything theoretically has the same amount of magic in it, and even if two things of different value are being traded you can add other things to make the deal more even. Three +2 turnips for a +3 potato and a Net of Butterflies or something like that.

Quote
Quote
Optionally: No plot. No dungeon master. Violence only. Final Destination. :wall
Some people play hack-and-slash D&D. The offhandedly-mentioned ability to run a quick hack-and-slash session (while waiting for someone to show up, say) is bad?

Only if its the only viable option for what is supposed to be an RPG. More and more, this is looking to me as an advanced Tactical Miniatures Battle Game labeled as a Role Playing Game.

Quote
Since our monsters are nothing but homicidal maniacs with bling we want, this is the only option.
You're a big boy. Give your NPCs motivations on your own. A generic "all Xs react like Y" monster blurb is useless. Seriously, did the 3E MM ever help you run a monster personality-wise? I managed to do it all on my own.[/quote]

The 3.5 MM at least didn't depict every single entity as exclusively a combat hungry beast. Every single entry in the 4eMM is designed around facilitating the stabination portion of the game. It doesn't even tell you that normally animals don't fight to the death cause they're more interested in surviving more than making acquiring XP a chalenge.
The only entry (I found) that does run away after being injured is the hippogriff. Everything else, including the dinosaur herbivores, is a homicidal maniac.

Straw_Man

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Re: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2008, 08:11:50 PM »


Quote
Quote
I hate the new saving throw system. I really hate the new saving throw system.
"Saving Throw" is a misnomer. 4E saving throws are like 3E *durations*.

I hate the new saving throw system with a passion. Applying a status condition to a regular monster will hamper it for one round. But then on the next, it has 50% chance of being back in business. This would be fine if fights only lasted a few rounds, but apparently your supposed to spend one hour to resolve a single battle. Combine this with the fact that combat rounds are supposed to be faster than in 3e, that means that your going to spend dozens of rounds fighting...

Quote
Quote
In the DMG, the guidelines for interacting with non-combat NPCs sounds like description of what happens when you click on an NPC. Actually, the stuff on social interaction with NPCs and monsters in general is leaving me dissatisfied.
What... what did you want them to say?

I dunno. Something like:
Quote from: Races of War
Orcs: The Endless War
Orcs are the product of a generations-long war against the other races. Unfortunately, they haven’t realized that they’ve lost this war. Why the war starts is simple: orcs are, as a race, stupid, ugly, and weak willed, but very strong. Being stupid, ugly and weak willed means that other races tend to always get the upper hand on them and tend to always get the better end of any deal, and other races also tend to not want Orcs around. Orc goods are always a little worse than goods produced by other races, and orcs are generally a little rowdier and less pleasant to be around.

At some point the orcs realize that they are much better in battle than other races, and they decide to fight for a little respect and fair treatment. Then the war is on. The only problem is that orcs win battles, but lose wars. Other races have natural advantages or just greater intelligence, so any war tends to go badly for the orcs in the long run. Powerful melee combat ability doesn’t mean much when elves attack from the bushes with longbows and then run way and all the races have superior battle plans and ability to lead their troops.

Once the war has been decisively won, the orcs are driven out of their lands and pushed into some badland, hinterland, or some other undesirable terrain far away from trade routes and civilization and usually full of monsters. The other races then go back to their lives, but here’s the trick: the orcs don’t. As far as the orcs are concerned, the war is still on because the orcs are still stuck in the worst land in their area, scraping by in the wilderness with minimal natural resources and almost no access to the products of civilization like arable farmlands, centuries-old cities, and trade goods like the products of skilled craftsmen from other lands (which can include magic items).

All of orc culture comes back to this issue. Orcs are constantly warring on other races not out of innate need for violence or evil inclinations, but because they are fighting for their survival as a race in lands considered undesirable by every other major race. Orc raids are not only for food and booty, but for all the things that orc culture cannot produce like tools and weapons. Without these things they cannot survive in the wilderness, and they cannot produce them in the wilderness living as nomads who hunt and gather for survival.

Orc hordes are not an indication of warlike racial tendencies, but of population issues. Once the orcish population in the badlands grows too large to be supportable, they must conquer new lands or else face death by famine and disease. Hordes are formed of “excess” young males that are sent off to carve out new lands or die trying…. both results ease the burden on the few resources in the badlands.

The fact that orcs are constantly in a war footing means that they easily offend other races with their tactics. Rather than fight elven guerilla fighters who sap their resources and manpower, they’ll burn the forest down, and rather than fight dwarves in their millennia-old and heavily entrenched deepnesses filled with traps, the orcs will collapse the tunnels and dig the booty out of the rubble. The fact that most races fight defensively means that orcs only gain tactical advantage by being extremely offensively-minded. The fact that orcs do not have supplies coming from the badlands means that while they have no supply trains to cut, they must conduct blitzkrieg-style war or face starvation, and they cannot afford to hold troops in reserve. They often just don’t have the resources needed to conduct honorable or civilized war, and their attacks seldom have finesse or timing on their side, meaning that they only win battles through overwhelming force. Night raids are their specialty, as they have darkvision and are sensitive to light.

Quote
Quote
Two words: Town Portal
Or, you know, a cross between Teleport and Word of Recall. Taking out Teleport is for the best.

I disagree with that notion, and it's incorrect. Teleport is now harder to set up, and harder to perform. It also has the potential to be exactly like way points in Diablo 2 (with a moderate cost), with the additional option of giving players the option to set up their own way points.

Quote
Quote
You will not want to craft items. Ever.
Sure you will. That's how to get the exact items you want.

I stand corrected. You will use the crafting rules to transform 5 +5 swords for 1 +5 flail. Or 5 +5 flails to transform for 1 +5 sword. Whatever. That's fine.

However, noone in their right mind will use the economy rules, as their just moronic. Trading 5 +5 swords for 1 +5 flail, or 5 +5 flails for 1 +5 sword, is just stupid. It doesn't make any sense. A +5 anything theoretically has the same amount of magic in it, and even if two things of different value are being traded you can add other things to make the deal more even. Three +2 turnips for a +3 potato and a Net of Butterflies or something like that.

Quote
Quote
Optionally: No plot. No dungeon master. Violence only. Final Destination. :wall
Some people play hack-and-slash D&D. The offhandedly-mentioned ability to run a quick hack-and-slash session (while waiting for someone to show up, say) is bad?

Only if its the only viable option for what is supposed to be an RPG. More and more, this is looking to me as an advanced Tactical Miniatures Battle Game labeled as a Role Playing Game.

Quote
Since our monsters are nothing but homicidal maniacs with bling we want, this is the only option.
You're a big boy. Give your NPCs motivations on your own. A generic "all Xs react like Y" monster blurb is useless. Seriously, did the 3E MM ever help you run a monster personality-wise? I managed to do it all on my own.

The 3.5 MM at least didn't depict every single entity as exclusively a combat hungry beast. Every single entry in the 4eMM is designed around facilitating the stabination portion of the game. It doesn't even tell you that normally animals don't fight to the death cause they're more interested in surviving more than making acquiring XP a chalenge.
The only entry (I found) that does run away after being injured is the hippogriff. Everything else, including the dinosaur herbivores, is a homicidal maniac.

Dude, I love you  :)

I'm sure there will be people who switch, it is mechanically a better systems. And the big kids among us will add flavour and RP elements so that we can wash the mechanical flavour of it down. But I don't know if I have the time to do that well, or the need to 'improve' what I'm paying money for.

And what I've heard so far doesn't dispose me to believe that it is oriented an encouraging roleplaying. If you want it, you build it, no outlines, suggestions or even flavour beyond combat roles given.
"No, no, don't think, Maya." Ritsuko chided. "We will not gattai the Evas or their pilots.

Such thoughts lead inevitably to transformation sequences."

Momar

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Re: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?
« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2008, 08:23:27 PM »
How do you get 40 times hp? I'm pretty sure it's more like 5, though I only looked at one example (efreet fireblade vs. elder red dragon).

SixthDeclension

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Re: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?
« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2008, 11:17:05 PM »
And what I've heard so far doesn't dispose me to believe that it is oriented an encouraging roleplaying. If you want it, you build it, no outlines, suggestions or even flavour beyond combat roles given.

There is a whole 17 pages in the DM Guide about "non-combat encounters"! I was excited it even got that much, even though half of it is traps...
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the_taken

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Re: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?
« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2008, 10:25:54 PM »
How do you get 40 times hp? I'm pretty sure it's more like 5, though I only looked at one example (efreet fireblade vs. elder red dragon).

Right. Checked again. I was wrong. Sorry. False Alarm.

I think what happened is I read "making a creature a solo version: multiply it's HP by 8, then multiply by 4 if it's Lvl10 or lower, the by 5 if it's Lvl11 or higher." x4 or x5 is way more reasonable, at lower levels...

Hp growth still out paces the damage growth of the players. Around 25th level, a "striker's" 1/day ability lets him dish approximately 3d8+21 (34.5) damage. On the other hand, HP on normal monsters has grown to be anywhere from 156 to 260 before adding con bonuses. That's 5 hits from the 1/day ability. Fights last forever in this system. And lets not forget that "elites" and "solos" have better defenses.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2008, 11:25:47 PM by the_taken »

heffroncm

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Re: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?
« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2008, 11:06:32 PM »
Around 25th level, a "striker's" 1/day ability lets him dish approximately 3d8+21 (34.5) damage.

Depends on the build and the power involved.  Not taking feats into account, a 23rd level ENCOUNTER power from a 25th level ranger (striker) can do 5d10 +36 + 3d6 at range.  The same Ranger with a 25th level daily can do 3d10 + 12 to everything in a close blast 5, with an extra 3d6 to his Quarry.  A level 19 Ranger Daily lets the same Ranger do 4d10 + 24 + 3d6 to a target at range.  I'm sure more damage could be done by taking feats, utilities, and magic item powers into account.

AlienFromBeyond

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Re: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?
« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2008, 11:09:48 PM »
And of course, the ultimate Striker trick, Blood Pulse. Or Steel Cascade if you're a Ranger.

Orion

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Re: what is this '4e' thing you speak of?
« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2008, 10:31:58 PM »
People will play the best system for their game. It just might take them a while to switch.
I think people will eventually switch to the game that (a) all their friends are playing and (b) has new content being published on a regular basis. The supposed superiority of the rules is secondary to those kinds of peer pressure/convenience factors. I want to try 4e at some point, but thus far, I don't see it as an upgrade, but instead a lateral move to a very different game.