Author Topic: Gestalt Warlock-Spellthief with Cleric Cohort  (Read 8636 times)

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jameswilliamogle

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Re: Gestalt Warlock-Spellthief
« Reply #80 on: June 03, 2009, 05:26:32 AM »
I like the idea of stealing Divine Metamagic Persistant Extended Divine Powers from your cohort on a daily basis via Steal Spell Effect.  The spell level is low enough that it should work by the time it becomes viable.

Might as well get Bite of the Werebear, Owl's Insight, Righteous Might...  Lower level cohorts could provide Persistant Shields, Wraithstrikes (not that you need it), Heart of X spells, Greater Mage Armor spells...  All from the lower level followers, making them worth something.  Really dig the idea.  Excluding Ocular Spell cheese, might be the only way that works to get Persistant Spells on someone else (RAI and RAW).

Also, Permancied effects could be stolen, too.

I know FR material is out, but would the Godsblood Spelltheft feat be a no-go?  (Same source as Font of Inspiration.)

Also, there's a Dragon mag variant that trades in lots of a Spellthief's trapfinding abilities and skills for casting advancement as a Bard (plus, gets to pick Bard spells or normal Spellthief spells).  It might be closer to what you are looking for in the character.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2009, 05:28:37 AM by jameswilliamogle »

VennDygrem

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Re: Gestalt Warlock-Spellthief
« Reply #81 on: June 03, 2009, 05:59:05 AM »
Is this advice for the warlock//spellthief, or for the cohort?

Also, not sure how stuff from Dragon magazine/compendium is handled in the game.

Either.  Both.  It's the finest of +0 templates, and good rolls can really help a warlock.  Spellthief casting is, IIRC, cha based, so you'll be wanting that.
Fey type, -2 str +2 dex  -2 con +2cha, vastly improved DR compared to a warlock's, and a massive debuffing of anyone who stands next to you (-cha morale penalty to all saves, 5' radius), chance of wings/vision.

Basically no downside.

Well, except that there's no chance Sinfire'd allow it as a 0LA template.  :P

Regardless, added onto Whisper Gnome, that comes to a net -4 Str, +4 Dex adjustment to stats. Fey type makes sense with Gnomes, though I'd have to be Chaotic Evil, if I remember correctly. Not that I can't work within that, though I'd probably need to have Nondetection on constantly. :)

I like the idea of stealing Divine Metamagic Persistant Extended Divine Powers from your cohort on a daily basis via Steal Spell Effect.  The spell level is low enough that it should work by the time it becomes viable.

Might as well get Bite of the Werebear, Owl's Insight, Righteous Might...  Lower level cohorts could provide Persistant Shields, Wraithstrikes (not that you need it), Heart of X spells, Greater Mage Armor spells...  All from the lower level followers, making them worth something.  Really dig the idea.  Excluding Ocular Spell cheese, might be the only way that works to get Persistant Spells on someone else (RAI and RAW).

Also, Permancied effects could be stolen, too.

I know FR material is out, but would the Godsblood Spelltheft feat be a no-go?  (Same source as Font of Inspiration.)

Also, there's a Dragon mag variant that trades in lots of a Spellthief's trapfinding abilities and skills for casting advancement as a Bard (plus, gets to pick Bard spells or normal Spellthief spells).  It might be closer to what you are looking for in the character.

Any idea on what issue the spellthief variant abilities are from?

Also, I can try to swing Godsblood by Sinfire by justifying it as the fact that it technically is only applyin to the domains offered by those gods, but it's not likely to happen.

I can steal spell effect on a permanencied spell, but it would only last I think a number of rounds/minutes equal to my spellthief level.
Better to have persisted spells cast on me or stolen from a cohort.

So would it be best, for the Cohort, to go Cleric, as opposed to druid or wizard (or even archivist)? Domain access (mmm, anyspell) plus DMM (though I'm positive any related cheese, aka nightstick abuse etc., is out of the question).

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Gestalt Warlock-Spellthief
« Reply #82 on: June 03, 2009, 06:17:47 AM »
It says always evil, but as everyone knows, in a world with succubus paladins, that always has the caveat of "in groups of three or more, when played by the GM, some restrictions apply, please report to your nearest alignment flamewar for more details".
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VennDygrem

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Re: Gestalt Warlock-Spellthief
« Reply #83 on: June 03, 2009, 06:38:03 AM »
Regardless of the alignment thing (which wasn't the issue), it's still a template meant more for creatures, isn't really balanced for what you get (0? Why doesn't everyone take it?), and comes from Dragon Magazine, which may or may not be allowed.

That last bit applies to the Spellthief alternate features (I managed to find the issue, 353, and read the features) as well. Though, I'm not sure if it's worth bothering with losing the skills and trapfinding if I have a ready supply of good spells to take on. It's tempting, surely, and would save yet another feat as well (Master Spellthief would become obsolete).

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Re: Gestalt Warlock-Spellthief
« Reply #84 on: June 03, 2009, 06:41:43 AM »
Technically, it's not directly from the magazine.

VennDygrem

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Re: Gestalt Warlock-Spellthief
« Reply #85 on: June 03, 2009, 06:45:25 AM »
The Dragon Compendium is still a compilation of material from Dragon Magazine, and counts as a third party source, even with contributions from frequent content developers to WotC. I'm sure Sinfire would be willing to work out a way to make the template workable, as he is with certain level adjusted races, but it's still a bit of a stretch.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Gestalt Warlock-Spellthief
« Reply #86 on: June 03, 2009, 06:55:31 AM »
Dragon Compendium is, IIRC, considered to be a 'real' book, rather than part of the magazine.
As for the template, well, the con penalty hurts, and if you don't have a charisma bonus the supernatural abilities aren't useful at all.  At low levels you're far more susceptibility to melee damage (extra d6 damage from any iron or steel = ow!)  Later on your DR will apply to it (explicitly mentioned), but at low levels you're ridiculously squishy.  Since I'd imagine that cold iron weapons count as iron or steel, the weapons that can hurt you will hurt you more, so...

Having the fey type is a bit of a tossup, but for many characters it's a disadvantage.

The most powerful season ability, winter's chill, can't be turned off, so if you have any living nonfey in your party, don't expect them to stand next to you.

And the wings/eyes are, practically speaking, going to be decided on by the DM.  And the decision will be "no".

So it's unbalanced, but not quite as bad as it looks.  One alteration that makes it more palatable is the DR being changed back from "cold iron" to "iron or steel", which reduces its usefulness considerably.  Winter's Chill should be capped at half your level, and the vision/wing upgrades are rolled into some sorta savage progression.
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Gestalt Warlock-Spellthief
« Reply #87 on: June 03, 2009, 03:39:32 PM »
Is this advice for the warlock//spellthief, or for the cohort?

Also, not sure how stuff from Dragon magazine/compendium is handled in the game.

Dragon Mag needs specific approval to be allowed. I do have the Dragon Compendium, but the Unseelie is just a bit unbalanced (I know I've allowed previously, but I realized since then that it was a mistake to do so). The template just has too many advantages for an LA 0 template. Its something I can work on, but would rather not touch with a Collapsible Pole.


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Prime32

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Re: Gestalt Warlock-Spellthief
« Reply #88 on: June 03, 2009, 06:45:13 PM »
Unseelie Fey does not list an LA.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Gestalt Warlock-Spellthief
« Reply #89 on: June 03, 2009, 06:58:18 PM »
Unseelie Fey does not list an LA.

It actually does, just in a funny place.  Check the page before it with the example character.
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VennDygrem

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Re: Gestalt Warlock-Spellthief
« Reply #90 on: June 04, 2009, 02:14:52 AM »
Regardless of LA listings and advantages vs. disadvantages and such, the fact remains that it's not worth trying to make work in the game.

Are there any more suggestions for the cohort, such as recommendations on class/race? I can obviously research handbooks for specific classes and such, but again, there aren't a lot of resources on the Leadership feat and optimizing cohorts, since they're mostly just less powerful versions of regular characters.

Also, pertinent equipment? I've factored in a +con item to help boost my HP and avoid being too squishy. I also figured my best armor bet is going to be a mithral chain shirt +1 since it has no ACP and is technically cheaper than a regular Mithral Breastplate. I'd probably eventually move on to the latter, though.

I probably don't need the UMD skill boost item anymore, either, though maybe something minor will be fine. I'll probably also want a backup weapon too, though that's a last resort so I don't need anything fancy.

It would be best to note that my character is small with a poor str, so carrying capacity isn't very high (Heward's handy haversack is probably a good bet to help with that), so I won't be carrying terribly much. However, my cohort and/or followers could, though I'd trust my cohort since he has less of a glaring giant bullseye painted on him. :)

VennDygrem

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Re: Gestalt Warlock-Spellthief
« Reply #91 on: June 06, 2009, 08:44:59 AM »
I like the idea of stealing Divine Metamagic Persistant Extended Divine Powers from your cohort on a daily basis via Steal Spell Effect.  The spell level is low enough that it should work by the time it becomes viable.

Looking things over, how exactly is DMM applied? The text provides for two possibilities: Either that you can expend the turn checks to prepare your spells in its normal spell level slot, or that you spend the turn checks upon casting to reduce the spell level adjustment.
The former provides for the fact that prepared casters, such as a cleric, must prepare spells with metamagic to begin with. The latter goes with the example given for DMM, where it says "For example, Jozan the cleric could sacrifice three turn attempts to empower a holy smite he's casting." My emphasis, indicates the sacrifice occurs upon casting, as opposed to upon preparing. However, unless you prepare a metamagic spell in a certain spell-level-slot and end up casting it at its regular slot, it doesn't make sense.

So, does DMM apply at casting or upon preparing? This obviously has a big impact on the usefulness of my cohort for Steal Spell. :O

I'm also currently fussing over what race to go with. I'm thinking a Changeling cloistered cleric with Planning and Transformation domains, with spontaneous domain casting for transformation. Goes well with my sneaky gnome to make up a roguish duo, but lack of stat adjustments is both a blessing and bane (leaving Cha unoptimized and further limiting turn attempts for fueling DMM). Avoiding LA is also good to keep an already low CL from sinking too far, so templates and LA'd races are probably not the best choices. A Petal cleric cohort could have amazing adjustments to the elite array, but I'd only just have access to 2nd level spells to steal, which is kind of limiting at 7th level, though not terrible if it means I can DMM Persist one more spell/day.

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Re: Gestalt Warlock-Spellthief
« Reply #92 on: June 06, 2009, 08:54:31 AM »
Hey, DMMed persist isn't heighten, so since it doesn't change the spell level, it shouldn't matter, right?
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VennDygrem

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Re: Gestalt Warlock-Spellthief
« Reply #93 on: June 06, 2009, 09:32:52 AM »
What I mean is, spells with metamagic applied take up higher level spell slots, and if you're a prepared caster they're prepared in those slots. What I want to know is if DMM applies when you prepare the spell or if it is supposed to be at casting, as indicated in the feat example. For instance, instead of preparing a Persistent Divine Favor in a 7th level slot (1st level spell, +6 effective levels for Persist Spell), one would assume it still gets prepared in the 1st level slot, with the DMM making it Persistent Divine Favor in a 1st level slot, rather than regular Divine Favor. Otherwise you'd be spontaneously applying metamagic, which gets confusing when dealing with prepared spells.

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Re: Gestalt Warlock-Spellthief
« Reply #94 on: June 06, 2009, 08:36:40 PM »
What I mean is, spells with metamagic applied take up higher level spell slots, and if you're a prepared caster they're prepared in those slots. What I want to know is if DMM applies when you prepare the spell or if it is supposed to be at casting, as indicated in the feat example. For instance, instead of preparing a Persistent Divine Favor in a 7th level slot (1st level spell, +6 effective levels for Persist Spell), one would assume it still gets prepared in the 1st level slot, with the DMM making it Persistent Divine Favor in a 1st level slot, rather than regular Divine Favor. Otherwise you'd be spontaneously applying metamagic, which gets confusing when dealing with prepared spells.

DMM is preped when you prepare the spell, you have to choose to apply DMM Persist while preparing. You spend the turn attempts then, and the feat's cost is reduced to the point that it can be applied. It then remains that way until you cast it, at which point the effects of DMM are lost and the spell is cast (but still only takes up the normal slot).

If you recover the spell through a Pearl of Power or Echo Spell, the effects of DMM do not return and the spell's level becomes what it should have been without DMM. This may put it beyond your ability to cast (especially for spells like Divine Power, which is a 10th level spell when Persisted). You do not recover the lower level spell slot, and spell slots gained above your normal allotment of spells/day fade the next time you are due to prepare spells (in other words, you don't get to keep that 10th level spell slot even if you could cast spells of that level).


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VennDygrem

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Re: Gestalt Warlock-Spellthief with Cleric Cohort
« Reply #95 on: June 06, 2009, 11:52:15 PM »
Honestly I was just trying to clear up wording; I hadn't even thought of how it would interact with pearls of power and the like.

I was mainly concerned with the fact that if it was spontaneous and such, my spellthief couldn't steal a persisted spell affected by DMM.

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Re: Gestalt Warlock-Spellthief with Cleric Cohort
« Reply #96 on: June 06, 2009, 11:54:32 PM »
Honestly I was just trying to clear up wording; I hadn't even thought of how it would interact with pearls of power and the like.

I was mainly concerned with the fact that if it was spontaneous and such, my spellthief couldn't steal a persisted spell affected by DMM.

You can, but the casting time is increased as though you were applying the feat spontaneously.


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VennDygrem

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Re: Gestalt Warlock-Spellthief with Cleric Cohort
« Reply #97 on: June 17, 2009, 07:24:36 AM »
So I'm wondering: Was it worthwhile making my cohort a Cloistered Cleric instead of a normal one? As a cohort, it's using the Elite Array, but that still doesn't leave it with terrific ability scores; I figured due to this I'd devote the cohort to being a spell-battery and buffer for my warlock, with some buffs applicable to the party in general. It doesn't have the ability points to devote to constitution or strength, so I figured it couldn't hurt to go Cloistered for the sake of getting some more skill points and all knowledge skills. However, now its even squishier, since it can't wear heavy armor, and if it runs out of spells, which is likely to happen very fast once even one encounter is underway, it can't really survive in combat.

Would I be better off not focusing on Persistent buffs and instead try to make it more generally self-sufficient? Besides the persistent buffs, there's little reason to siphon off most spells from the cleric. I'm wondering if I'd be better off going for a regular cleric, using Shifter (to maintain the Transformation domain). By putting the 12 or 13 into Strength instead of Intelligence, and choosing a Shiter trait with a bonus to Str, the cohort could be a passable battle cleric, especially being able to spontaneously cast Alter Self to gain a good natural armor bonus and such.

I might not even ask, but I'm not really making use of those knowledge skills since I'm not trading the Knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion, particularly to keep the knowledges as class skills and because it just isn't viable to enter combat or even attack with a ranged weapon yet. It seems I'm trading survivability for rather little, when it comes to a cohort.

Otherwise I'll probably just try my best to keep it alive until next level when it can at least take zen archery. :O

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Re: Gestalt Warlock-Spellthief with Cleric Cohort
« Reply #98 on: June 17, 2009, 04:54:21 PM »
DMM is preped when you prepare the spell, you have to choose to apply DMM Persist while preparing. You spend the turn attempts then, and the feat's cost is reduced to the point that it can be applied. It then remains that way until you cast it, at which point the effects of DMM are lost and the spell is cast (but still only takes up the normal slot).

If you recover the spell through a Pearl of Power or Echo Spell, the effects of DMM do not return and the spell's level becomes what it should have been without DMM. This may put it beyond your ability to cast (especially for spells like Divine Power, which is a 10th level spell when Persisted). You do not recover the lower level spell slot, and spell slots gained above your normal allotment of spells/day fade the next time you are due to prepare spells (in other words, you don't get to keep that 10th level spell slot even if you could cast spells of that level).
Minor nitpick: RAW, DMM is applied at casting time (which is fantastic when you use DMM with metamagics other than Persist). The text of the feat has Jozan using it when casting Holy Smite.
That solves the problem with PoPs as well, since it clearly doesn't come back metamagicked.

(Then again, maybe you were saying you're handling it differently in your campaign.)
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VennDygrem

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Re: Gestalt Warlock-Spellthief with Cleric Cohort
« Reply #99 on: June 17, 2009, 09:17:04 PM »
If this is the case, and Sinfire changes his stance, then it means the concept I had in mind isn't quite going to work (The cleric can still persist fixed range spells, like Blessed Aim, but it won't allow my spellthief to steal, for instance, a Persistent Lesser Visage of the Deity). If that's the case, then I might be better off going with the shifter after all and making it a little more durable at the expense of more turns/day. I'll probably still work my way toward persisting buff spells, but it'll be a little longer until I can reliably apply it to more spells. One instead of two at this level won't be too terrible a trade off (and in applying Extend, I can still have two persistent, alternating buffs at a time, at least). At this point, I may want to switch the Planning Domain to something else with better domain spells, or maybe I could go for Strength devotion and get the slam attack in addition to the shifting natural attack.