Author Topic: Gestalt Warlock-Spellthief with Cleric Cohort  (Read 12674 times)

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skydragonknight

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2009, 10:42:36 PM »
To be honest, you'd be better off not using Rage+Glaive, as Glaive makes no mention of your Str modifier (or Power Attack). This is a touchy subject; even though I'm fully capable of ruling one way or the other, doing so is a tough descision for me (one side likes to see my players succeed, but the other side feels the Glaive shouldn't apply a Str modifier for a few reasons).

Regarding the use of Strength:

Quote from: Eldritch Glaive
As a Full-round action, you can make a single melee touch attack as if wielding a weapon.


Quote from: SRD: Combat-Attack Roll
Your attack bonus with a melee weapon is:

    Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + size modifier

Quote from: SRD: Combat-Damage
Strength Bonus

When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon, including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage result. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies on attacks made with a bow that is not a composite bow.

So now that we have a pretty good argument that Strength is important, I'll go ahead and recommend the use of Goliath both for the Strength bonus and Racial Sub level which not only gives an additional +2 Str when raging, but also gives you reach, giving you effectively double the reach with your Eldritch Glaive while raging.
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VennDygrem

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #41 on: May 13, 2009, 10:49:38 PM »
It seems Sinfire has spoken about the lack of str applying to eldritch glaive, though I don't see how it affects the invocation that much except in my case. Usually a Warlock isn't going to have a huge strength, even for a glaivelock. However, there are also few stats or rules given for the eldritch glaive, even if you consider it as being the same as a normal glaive for all intents and purposes. Does it have weight? Can you use feats like Short Haft with it? Is the damage worth it versus using a normal weapon? I suppose the main benefit would be that as a touch attack, you could afford to trade almost all of your attack bonus with it for power attack and still generally be able to hit. Again, normal warlocks have Average BAB, so they need a decent attack bonus if they're going to bother with Power Attack anyway.

The only issue with Goliath is the level adjustment. It's definitely something I've been considering, though.
The down side is there's no LA-buyback, so if I went with Goliath, I'd be stuck without the capability to get to 20th. Unless I can work out something with Sinfire to reduce Goliath to LA 0.

Any more thoughts on if Leap Attack is worth bothering with Open Minded for?
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« Last Edit: May 14, 2009, 12:14:18 AM by VennDygrem »

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #42 on: May 14, 2009, 11:06:42 AM »
To be honest, you'd be better off not using Rage+Glaive, as Glaive makes no mention of your Str modifier (or Power Attack). This is a touchy subject; even though I'm fully capable of ruling one way or the other, doing so is a tough descision for me (one side likes to see my players succeed, but the other side feels the Glaive shouldn't apply a Str modifier for a few reasons).

Regarding the use of Strength:

Quote from: Eldritch Glaive
As a Full-round action, you can make a single melee touch attack as if wielding a weapon.


Quote from: SRD: Combat-Attack Roll
Your attack bonus with a melee weapon is:

    Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + size modifier

Quote from: SRD: Combat-Damage
Strength Bonus

When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon, including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage result. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies on attacks made with a bow that is not a composite bow.

So now that we have a pretty good argument that Strength is important, I'll go ahead and recommend the use of Goliath both for the Strength bonus and Racial Sub level which not only gives an additional +2 Str when raging, but also gives you reach, giving you effectively double the reach with your Eldritch Glaive while raging.

The counter-argument:

Quote
If you hit, your target is affected as if struck by your eldritch blast
(including any eldritch essence applied to the blast). Unlike
hideous blow (Complete Arcane 134), you cannot combine your
eldritch glaive with damage from a held weapon
.


Technically, your EB doesn't apply your Str modifier, and you are holding a glaive when you use this invocation.


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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #43 on: May 14, 2009, 01:19:48 PM »
Quote
Anyway, my stats feel abysmal with just warforged.

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #44 on: May 14, 2009, 01:49:51 PM »
Quote
Anyway, my stats feel abysmal with just warforged.

Dragonborn of Bahamut Lolth-Touched Incarnate Construct Warforged Mineral Warrior

I'd shoot first, ask questions later.

In other words, no.


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VennDygrem

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #45 on: May 14, 2009, 11:56:52 PM »
Well, in reality, my stats are awesome, it's just for this level of power, comparing to other players' stats. Anyway, I'm wondering at this point if it's worth trying to be viable at such differing roles. As it stands, the party in total has changed fairly drastically.

We currently have two Psions, one an egoist and the other still a mystery, a Totemist//Barbarian/etc. natural attack-monster, a Warmage fix//fighter (thug)/paladin/marshal/silverwood-outrider/sandshaper/whoknowswhatelse (basically from what I gather, a blaster who flies around on his flying animal cohort).

So, we've got a blaster, a close-combat melee-er, and I'm not entirely sure what roles the two psions fill, exactly. And, at some point in the future, this group and the 'evil' group will meet up, either to wage battle or to join together. I suppose that depends on the characters and plot at the time. My character was originally conceived of as being on the evil team, but as that filled up I had to fit my character on the good team. So, he's pretty much just barely not evil. ;)

I still really like the idea of barbarian//warlock/hellfire warlock (really good blasting, UMD, nifty SLA's), but should I be trying to fill some other role?

This barbarian fix makes it a pretty good melee class, with great tanking abilities. Having Warlock helps fill in some blank areas, power-wise, such as the typical barbarian's inability to fly, or be effective at range. But are there other things I should be worrying about? So far, it seems like at lower and mid-levels, I'll be focusing on melee, but at higher levels when I start in with hellfire warlock and legacy champion, I'd be stupid not to use hellfire blast more often. At this point, the build switches focuses from a Barbarian with arcane powers to an arcanist brick ...house. Nowhere near as versatile in power selection as a wizard, of course, but more naturally able to take a hit.

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #46 on: May 15, 2009, 03:32:33 AM »
Well, it is an interesting niche. similar to an eldritch knight, but... not as bad. I would stick with it, but Barb/Warlock isn't the most synergetical. Maybe find a way to reduce MAD, so you don't need to focus on Con, Str, Cha, Dex a lil' bit. Maybe Sinfire knows of a Cha based Fighter class? (Battle Dancer, from the Dragon Compendium, gets Cha to AC at 2nd level... I dunno other specifics, but that don't look too bad.

The problem with your stats is that with 43 point buy, a 32 buys 2 18's. for any caster, that is a primary casting stat+con. for you, your casting stat is CHA, but how much more important is it? you have more MAD than probably any other character. Mine is Str/Con, maybe Dex. it ain't bad.
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VennDygrem

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #47 on: May 15, 2009, 04:34:01 AM »
Well, with the way my character is currently set up, his stats are Str 18, Dex 14, Con 20, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 10. Charisma for Warlocks is only useful if using abilities against other creatures, since it affects their save DCs, and couple powers' abilities (like Dark One's Own Luck, which gives a bonus to saves = Cha mod). So, my MAD gets reduced to Str/Con and Dex-minor. Still, Cha would help me be party face (I'm currently configured to partially fill this, taking Beguiling Influence, and of course this fits thematically with Naberius as my one essential vestige).

I've gone with other race and template combos which loosen my PB a bit. Obviously Dragonborn + any con-boosting race is great, but again, Dragonborn requires being non-evil. Hellbred might be thematically pretty cool, but they're also essentially anti-evil. Goliath, or any template, adds level adjustment.

Warforged has a boost to con, and a bunch of immunities (which are relatively balanced out by vulnerabilities and half-healing), is what I'm currently going with, but I'm not stuck on it.

Right now, the character's abilities and projected abilities make him fit reduced melee and ranged niches, but primarily it works out to be an odd sort of tank. It's got ridiculously low AC when raging, but its major abilities require him to be the center of attention. He gets a bunch of temporary hit points which refresh by round, damage reduction to slightly reduce that on melee attacks, and eventually Hellfire Shield, which hit anyone who directs an attack against me with massive auto-damage. If someone hits me, I barely feel it, and they get to regret it. If they don't hit me, I'll just keep wailing on them, and they'll still regret it. The only thing is the build isn't nearly as effective against what a caster can do to it. Energy/area/etc effects like breath weapons and spells bypass damage reduction, and aren't melee so they don't take a backlash on the hellfire shield.

On the plus side, I get mettle while I rage, immunity to fear and confusion effects while raging, plus a boost to will saves, which thanks to gestalt is a good save. I'm vulnerable to reflex saves, though my Dex is mediocre as opposed to bad, so it's not so terrible (just not good). Warlock 10 gives energy resistance 5 to two types, and hellfire warlock gives fire resist 10, so that's 3 energy types to have limited resistance to.

If I stay with Warforged, I'll be immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, the sickened condition, and energy drain, all for free without worrying about needing spells or items to grant these immunities. That covers several non-damage effects of spells, though clearly not all of them. Almost everything else gets helped by mettle and later, improved mettle. The downsides, however, have already been mentioned (not to mention the penalty to wis and cha).

Again, I know Barbarian//DfA synergizes better, but that's a combo you essentially take all the way to 20 on both sides. It has fewer options for invocations, though several of them are similar to warlock's only better, such as Draconic Knowledge versus Otherwordly Whispers (+6 to all knowledge, not just Arcana/Religion/ThePlanes, and make them untrained to boot). However, no access to hellfire warlock means no hellfire blast, hellfire shield. Not a terrible waste, as I could always go Barbarian 20//DfA 6/Warshaper 4/something-something 10, but that fills a bit of a different niche altogether, and loses access to Rage while Humanoid Shaped. Certainly interesting in its own right, but I don't want to step on the Totemist's natural-attacking role, and losing rage means losing almost all of my main class features while changed.

I think some of my hesitance will be solved by making a final decision on Race, feats, and equipment.

For feats, there's only one I absolutely need, which is Supernatural Transformation for the Warlock's Eldritch Blast.
Equipement, I've definitely got a UMD-boosting item. 2500gp for a +5 bonus. 2000 for heward's handy haversack, potentially. 4000 for each stat boosting item I decide to take. Still wondering if a wandsheath is a good investment for a warforged, but I'm not set on Warforged still. Which of course brings me to wands. :/

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #48 on: May 15, 2009, 12:13:20 PM »
Totemist's natural-attacking role,

I wouldn't worry about that. My natural attacking monster won't be too worried about it.

Good job on reducing MAD, although i like a couple of the invocations with saves...
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VennDygrem

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #49 on: May 15, 2009, 03:53:00 PM »
I'd say I'm RAD- having Reduced Attribute Dependency, but the 80s and early 90s are over. :D
I still can't just dump any score except wis. Dex still needs to be moderate in case I ever need to use my eldritch blast, and in the higher levels, I'll be using it much more. Cha needs to at least have no penalty, since I plan on using UMD, or being able to. I need at least 10 int to be able to get enough skill ranks for PrC pre-reqs, the more the better.

More on Cha, I won't be selecting any eldritch essences except for either brimstone or hellrime blast, because selecting one is necessary for entry into Hellfire Warlock. I'd just as soon not waste a lesser invocation on either of those, though I suppose they have their occasional uses. I still need to ask Sinfire directly if I can swap that invocation out after entering Hellfire warlock, as warlocks can do so at certain levels naturally. I'd hate to think entering Hellfire warlock binds you to having Brimstone blast when your Hellfire blast already burns hotter than any flame.  :lmao

Since my Cha is still relatively low, should I bother with Beguiling Influence? I don't think any of the party members has a good Cha either, nor really any ranks in social skills. It also works well thematically with Naberius's focus on diplomacy and deception, though I really don't have the stats to back it up. It'd be our only choice, really, unless someone else has a good Cha and the skills to back it up.
-----------------------------------------
Hmm, I was just able to shift some points around, and get some more skills points and a tiny bit of charisma. No more need for Open Minded, and with Beguiling Influence I could be a passable party face, though not nearly as good as a full warlock. I'd still rather not have to use the invocation on Beguiling Influence if I can otherwise avoid it, but it's doable.
The other two least invo's I've got right now are See the Unseen and Baleful Utterance. Can't use baleful utterance while raging right now, unless I take another feat, so I'm not set in stone on it. It just seems really fun, especially out of combat.

"I'm sorry sir, I can't let you in. Good day." *shuts door*
*Baleful Utterance, door shatters*
"Why yes sir, come right on in, can I get you some tea, sir?"

Still, it has limits, especially the Rage thing, so I could swap it out.

skydragonknight

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #50 on: May 15, 2009, 04:12:07 PM »
I think I'll quickly note that Stand Still (EPH/SRD) is an excellent defensive/control option for a Glaivelock.

Least Invocations

Baleful Utterance - Endlessly amusing with unexpected utility.
Earthen Grasp - A "screw the caster" option for early/early middle levels. Use the Spell Compendium version, which does not provoke AoOs.
Eldritch Glaive - Duh.
Entropic Warding - Dead average. Don't settle for anything less than this. It's nice, but it's also passive so it's not an "option button".
See the Unseen - I have yet to play a Warlock without this invocation. Things you can't see CAN hurt you, and you don't want that.
Summon Swarm - Stupidly good at very low levels thanks to wounding from one of the swarms, plus Distraction. This is usually the invocation swapped at level 6.

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VennDygrem

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #51 on: May 16, 2009, 02:51:58 AM »
So, with the changes I've made, I can actually prove to be a rather effective party face, with Bluff +16, Diplomacy +12, Intimidate +15, thanks to some bonus skill points, skill synergies, and of course our good friend "Beguiling Influence" :)

I've also got Instantaneous Rage in the build currently, partially as a placeholder, but it would be nice to include it in the build if there's room. As I mentioned before, having the chance to react immediately should I get surprised could be a life-saver. (What's that? Surprise fear effect? *Rage!* Immune to Fear now, sorry. :D)

Right now I'm trying to concentrate on equipment. I know I don't really need the bonus to UMD item as much anymore, and won't at higher levels, thanks to Deceive Item, but it's nice to have. For 2500 gp to gain +5, it's not insanely expensive either. To make my current build work the way I need it to, an Amulet of Health (or similar item, regardless of body slot) is integral. And in order to insure my saving throws are decent, I've got a vest of Resistance +2. If I go with these items, my total wealth spent comes to 10500/19000. I could scratch the +2 vest for a +1 and not lose too much sleep, though, since two of my saves get boosts while raging.

I should probably also enchant my armor plating, and a weapon would be nice. Wow, this money isn't stretching very far. :D

Regarding weapon, I could technically use Eldritch Glaive, as I have pounce and thus could use it in a charge. The issue at hand seems to be that I can't use my strength bonus on it (though I could still apply power attack bonus and multiply that with feats like Leap Attack and Combat Brute). I'm likely going to want one or two other weapons anyway, though I'm not sure. At this level, I've got an eldritch blast of 3d6 damage, which applied with glaive and unmodified by power attack would yield an average of about 10-11 damage. A metal glaive is 1d10, plus 1.5xstr while raging (9), yielding 14-15 damage on average. There is a difference of about 4 points right now, which isn't much. One more level of warlock will make my eldritch blast 4d6, or 14 average damage. The discrepancy disappears (or, just about, since this doesn't take into account magic weapon enhancements, or alternate weapons such as greatsword- A +2 Greatsword with a weapon augment crystal for energy could deal an average of 21-22 damage, still higher than that 4d6 eldritch blast next level). And of course, once I get Hellfire blast, the possibilities of my strength bonus making much of a dent in the difference between a normal glaive and a Hellfire Glaive are unlikely. Though, at that level it may make more sense to use a chain or cone Hellfire blast, to hit more enemies at once.

The downside, it seems, would be the lack of other enhancements to weaponry. You can't apply ghost-touch to an eldritch blast, for instance, so it's still likely to only deal half damage to incorporeal creatures.

I like my current selection of least invocations-Beguiling Influence, Baleful Utterance, and See the Unseen. I'm not sure which one I could really part with to get Eldritch Glaive, so I'd probably be taking Extra invocation at some point to get it. Could do so now, even, giving up Instantaneous Rage... Hmm...

VennDygrem

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #52 on: May 18, 2009, 02:32:43 AM »
Seeing as how EG doesn't begin overtaking a Greatsword in damage potential for a couple of levels, I think I'll go with a regular weapon for now, and either trade out one of my least invocations at a later level, pick up Extra Invocation, or something. Sinfire said he may reward my character with extra invocations in-game depending on circumstances, so hopefully that may help mitigate the low amount of invocations normal warlocks get. RobbyPants's warlock fix gives one per level, but that would mean swapping my tier 3 barbarian for a tier 3 warlock, and I can't really do that. So this is the best way right now.

There is, of course, the Codex Advocare, but that is crazy expensive at this level and, I'm sure, difficult to obtain.
----
Hmm, also, I don't really need to bind Naberius until I get into Hellfire warlock. Wonder if there are any 1st level vestiges that are worth binding in the mean-time. >_>

VennDygrem

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #53 on: May 20, 2009, 01:35:19 AM »
So, given that I'll be starting out with regular weaponry, how in-depth should I be in purchasing it? I figure I should at least get a +1 Greatsword, but should I bother with any enchantments or weapon augment crystals? I may also want to keep a bludgeoning weapon around just in case as well; my slam attack counts, but doesn't pack much of a punch. Should I consider a battlefist, or not bother? Also, I figure adding Blueshine to my mithral plating helps alleviate the worry of coming up against, say, a rust monster, since techincally all my metal parts are now immune to acid and rust effects (though I, as a whole creature, am not immune to acid).

Spending well on weapons is good, being a barbarian, but leaves less room for protective gear and out-of-combat-useful wands/scrolls.

Speaking of spell-completion/trigger items, anyone know off-hand any low level long-lasting buffs? Low levels aren't well-known for long-lasting anything, I know, but wands don't always have high caster levels to compensate (and if they do, they're much more expensive). Maybe I should rather look for utility over buffs (and of course, a couple Repair Damage wands/scrolls).

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #54 on: May 20, 2009, 02:10:06 AM »
Hmm, also, I don't really need to bind Naberius until I get into Hellfire warlock. Wonder if there are any 1st level vestiges that are worth binding in the mean-time. >_>
Did you take Improved Binding? If so, Malphas is incredible, just for the bird.
[spoiler]
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[/spoiler]

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #55 on: May 20, 2009, 02:28:10 AM »
RobbyPants's warlock fix gives one per level, but that would mean swapping my tier 3 barbarian for a tier 3 warlock, and I can't really do that...

Actually, RobbyPants's Warlock also has 1d6 EB per level and it even has more DR. The DR is 2 at 2nd + 2 per 4 levels giving you DR 4/Cold Iron at 6th and 6d6 EB at 6th too...EB 7d6 at 7th... (Avg EB damage at 6th is 21, then avg 24-25 at 7th)

So, while I freely admit that I haven't read this entire thread, using the better warlock may be the way to go...sort of cake+eaty bits. What exactly is it that you're getting better from the tier 3 Barbarian that the tier 4 wouldn't give to offset 1d6 EB per level?
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VennDygrem

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #56 on: May 20, 2009, 03:13:48 AM »
Hmm, also, I don't really need to bind Naberius until I get into Hellfire warlock. Wonder if there are any 1st level vestiges that are worth binding in the mean-time. >_>
Did you take Improved Binding? If so, Malphas is incredible, just for the bird.
I didn't, but I've technically got room for it. The issue is that I'd only be using it for a couple of levels until I hit hellfire warlock, then it's Naberius 24/7 unless I want to take con damage (I don't). Don't think I didn't consider Binder 20//Warlock 11/Hellfire Warlock 3/Legacy Champion 6 and similar builds, because I did. :D

RobbyPants's warlock fix gives one per level, but that would mean swapping my tier 3 barbarian for a tier 3 warlock, and I can't really do that...

Actually, RobbyPants's Warlock also has 1d6 EB per level and it even has more DR. The DR is 2 at 2nd + 2 per 4 levels giving you DR 4/Cold Iron at 6th and 6d6 EB at 6th too...EB 7d6 at 7th... (Avg EB damage at 6th is 21, then avg 24-25 at 7th)

So, while I freely admit that I haven't read this entire thread, using the better warlock may be the way to go...sort of cake+eaty bits. What exactly is it that you're getting better from the tier 3 Barbarian that the tier 4 wouldn't give to offset 1d6 EB per level?

1) We've already got a blaster-type spellcaster (Prime32 using his Warmage Fix)
2) The Barbarian gets THP = 2x class level renewing each round, which can help offset a huge amount of damage. This increases to 3x class level at 9th level, and 4x class level at 18th.
3) The damage reduction provided by barbarian levels is doubled during a range, so at 7th level the 1/- is actually 2/- in a rage, etc. (I could actually exploit this with feats which improve existing DR, adding to the barb DR, but that's more feats).
4) Free pounce ability at level 6 without giving up fast movement
5) Rage 1/encounter (rather than x/day)
6) Mettle and Fear Immunity while Raging, eventually Improved Mettle (like Improved Evasion)
etc.

For reference, while raging at the beginning of this campaign, my character is not only immune to fear effects (a significant portion of will save effects), he reduces melee damage by 2, shrugs off 14 damage each round, and can generally wreak bloody havoc.

Now, a warlock can use wands and such to gain THP from some sources, but not generally anywhere as much, and can't function as a tank in any situation. Even when my barbarian hits the transitionary point and has EB/HfB damage far outweighing his melee potential, he still has the THP and immunities/resistances and can shrug almost anything off. He may be more vulnerable to attacks than he should be, but it seems like focusing on his AC would just be avoiding the inevitable.

Now, the other argument is that going with RP's warlock means more SLA's, and far, far better blasting (34d6 damage at 20th level instead of my build's 24d6). And since Sinfire's willing to work with me to create new Invocations, that means several interesting uses for those.
However, I still wouldn't get all that DR, since that's a class feature and the Hellfire Warlock and Legacy Champion stuff would have to be on the Warlock side in order to be effective. They would still work, but parts would be redundant and thus not much better. I wouldn't get double invocations in a level I had Warlock//Hellfire Warlock, nor would Hellfire warlock advance Eldritch Blast at that level. All I'd get, essentially, would be the 2d6 of hellfire blast, which isn't anything to sneeze at, sure, but not as awesome as the alternative.

I'd definitely be willing to explore the potential of making a warlock-primary build, but I don't want to unbalance the party in favor of blasters.
Hmm... If only Binder were tier 4...  :lmao

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #57 on: May 20, 2009, 03:23:35 AM »
I didn't, but I've technically got room for it. The issue is that I'd only be using it for a couple of levels until I hit hellfire warlock, then it's Naberius 24/7 unless I want to take con damage (I don't). Don't think I didn't consider Binder 20//Warlock 11/Hellfire Warlock 3/Legacy Champion 6 and similar builds, because I did. :D
Buy a Vestige Phylactery. You can use it to swap out your vestige. Bind Malphus for scouting, and then swap in Naberius when the fit hits the shan.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

VennDygrem

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #58 on: May 20, 2009, 04:17:23 AM »
I had forgotten about that. Thanks! :D (edit: Hmm, can't afford it yet, but maybe will find it among treasure later or be able to afford it then; Though, can't simply swap between two vestiges at will, only one switch per day, so it's got to count, but still a nice find nonetheless).

Anyway, as for my build it's still worthwhile to make sure I have full BAB, or near it, for using with eldritch glaive. A normal, optimized, pouncing barbarian could output more damage in a charging round than a regular hellfire warlock with one 34d6 blast, assuming all attacks managed to hit (the damage would be about the same if you assume half the attacks hit, or less if you assume only one hit). Four hellfire blasts in a round, though, are always better than one, and 34d6 is always better than 24d6. :)
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Though, there's something to be said for a blaster that simply can't be hit. Like a gnat you can't get rid of.  :P
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 05:08:04 AM by VennDygrem »

VennDygrem

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #59 on: May 23, 2009, 01:42:12 AM »
So, I'm heavily considering another avenue, based on Robby's Warlock fix, rather than basing it off of the Barbarian fix. We've already got a melee combatant in the Totem Rager, as it is. Besides, if the build is going to figure heavily on blasting and eldritch glaive later in levels anyway, I may as well embrace it.

The Hf Warlock, Binder, and Legacy Champion levels are pretty much set. No need to change them, really.

(Blurg, Wall of Text)
[spoiler]Now, if I keep the Warlock fix on the multiclassing side of the gestalt, I'll still get 18/20 levels of eldritch blast and invocations. This will bring the total blast to 34d6 at 20th level. If, on the other hand, I make it the secondary class, going Warlock 20, the Hf blast will be 36d6, I'll get two more invocations, and up to the full 10/cold iron DR, not to mention the very nice Imbue Item feature. Then there's 11 levels open on the other side, but advancing Hellfire Warlock as normal and through LC has slightly less pay-off, since Warlock levels would already be at full progression. I wouldn't, for instance, get at a particular level double the eldritch blast and invocations, but it would still advance the hellfire blast damage, which is really the main point to begin with, so not a complete waste. However, that does mess with BAB progression, or at least make it messier, among other things.

On the other side, I originally considered going with Rogue, for a few semi-decent class features and Sneak Attack. It makes for a very nice skillmonkey, too, but ends up being squishy and spreading those delicious skill points out among everything I need made things less than amazing.

Hexblade seemed like a pretty synergistic class, as it's heavily based on Charisma as well. But the class as it is just isn't worth it, and doesn't get me the skill points I want; any fixes to the class would bump it up a tier and make the whole point moot.

Scout is nice, though, as it gets a good amount of skills, skirmish damage, a couple bonus feats, fast movement, etc. Save this idea.

Ranger is also nice, getting the same HD as scout, though fewer skills. It does, however, get spellcasting, but I can't afford to put the points in Wisdom without getting MAD. I could at least get an item to boost Wis, if need-be, and just focus on buffs that don't rely on wis mod. The combat style trees don't help me at all (Improved Precise Shot at combat mastery is nice, but everything else in the archery line is worthless toward Eldritch Blast; Two-Weapon Fighting won't help, unless I wanted to qualify for the Dual Wand Wielder feat.) Too bad there's only one option for switching out the combat style for something else, and it's banned from this game, besides being a tier higher (shapeshift variant ranger). The options for getting rid of spellcasting aren't really worth being less MAD, since Spell-less ranger from CW is pretty gimpy, and the one from CC would be decent, as there are a couple ok feat I might want anyway, but doesn't really size up to spellcasting, plus I'd still have to use UMD to cast spells from the list (not a problem, but still an annoyance).

Still, full BAB, d8 HD, decent skill points, gestalting means all good saves, favored enemy is nice (Arcanists and Humans/Undead/Constructs might be good in Sharn), and then there's the animal companion. I think the Urban Companion is not only more flavorful for my character, but also less of a headache to keep track of. I'm still seeing if I can apply Improved Familiar to it to make the feature really shine, and if so, how I can boost my effective caster level to determine how good a creature I can get. Depending on how I construct the build, and if Warlock caster level works and can stack with the Ranger, even gestalt-wise, an Imp Urban Companion could do wonders. The other lower level ones aren't too shabby either, and even the benefits of a normal Urban Companion aren't too bad, either (don't have to worry about it dying and losing XP!). Bind Malphas, and have two Raven familiars fly around for me? Fun times.[/spoiler]

I'm also pretty sure I want to go with Whisper Gnome on this one. Definitely works with the stealthy infiltrator idea. Moving away from warforged means no more 'free' armor, but I'm not too worried about that.

Any thoughts on if it's worth making (fixed) Warlock the full-level side or the multiclass side? Are 2d6 and two extra invocations (on a class already getting more than the normal warlock) worth it? Is Imbue Item worth it? It would mean using several of my feats on item creation feats, so I'm thinking no, though maybe in another campaign.