Dazed.

[gagnrath]

I just want to get an opinion from some outside sources on daze as it effects creatures.

First of all the dazed condition.

Dazed
The creature is unable to act normally. A dazed creature can take no actions, but has no penalty to AC.


So they can't act untill after their init in the next round. 

Now various sources list what doesn't effect undead. 

Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.

Dazing isn't there.

Can undead be dazed?

If so is it game-breaking?

[veekie]

Provided it does not have a second descriptor, yes, they can, the Archivist's Dread Secret ability says so as well.

[Runestar]

It is odd, but no one appears to be immune to daze, not even undead or constructs. And daze immunity is extremely rare and difficult to obtain.

However, some dazing effects are mind affecting (such as ego-whip), and so would not affect them. But normal daze effects, such as that from 3-mountains style or that dazing blow maneuver, would work (especially well too, since they involve fort saves, which undead and constructs are notoriously weak for).

I am not sure how game-breaking it would be though.

[woodenbandman]

This reminds me:

Celerity!
Contingent Celerity: Contingency: when I cast Celerity.

Does that give me 2 celerities? Or do I get dazed.

[Runestar]

Something just struck me.

Undead are immune to any effect requiring a fort save unless it also affects objects.

Does this mean that 3-mountains style cannot affect it, since it cannot affect objects? Same for dazing blow.

If so, then I think it balances itself out. The dazing effects you want to affect undead with can't, and those the undead would like immunity to (eg: celerity, born of 3 thunders), aren't.

If this is the case, then I have to retract my earlier point.

[X-Codes]

Three Mountains Nauseates, not Dazes.

Anyway, the vast majority of abilities that inflict the Dazed condition are also Mind Affecting, which renders Vermin, Undead, and most Constructs effectively immune.  If you can use it without the Mind Affecting tag and on a Reflex or Will save then more power to you; just remember that Undead have lots of HD and good Will saves.

[Samb]

So if I took an undead template my wilder would be immune to daze?  I think I know what my next PC will be hehe.

[PhaedrusXY]

So if I took an undead template my wilder would be immune to daze?  I think I know what my next PC will be hehe.

No... where did you get that from this thread?

[Samb]

From the part that said undead are immune to daze since it is mind effecting. Although an undead useing psionic is silly to start with.

[PhaedrusXY]

From the part that said undead are immune to daze since it is mind effecting. Although an undead useing psionic is silly to start with.

I disagree entirely. Dazed is not mind-affecting itself. Most of the things that inflict it are, but the condition itself is not. And undead are not by default immune to it. That's what has been hashed out in this thread, and I've seen it discussed in earlier threads, and the same conclusion was reached.

I don't think psionic undead are silly, either. What is silly is the fact that all undead are treated as mindless, even when they are obviously not. That is just plain stupid. Intelligent undead should not be outright immune to mind-affecting things, and throwing this out is a common houserule from what I've seen.

[Chemus]

Undead are immune to any effect requiring a fort save unless it also affects objects.

Does this mean that 3-mountains style cannot affect it, since it cannot affect objects? Same for dazing blow.

If so, then I think it balances itself out. The dazing effects you want to affect undead with can't, and those the undead would like immunity to (eg: celerity, born of 3 thunders), aren't.

If this is the case, then I have to retract my earlier point.

I think this passage, is where the undead being immune to many forms of dazing comes up in this thread, Phaedrus. I think that Runestar's mention of the 'requiring a fort save, unless' clause is pivotal to many dazing effects.

[veekie]

From the part that said undead are immune to daze since it is mind effecting. Although an undead useing psionic is silly to start with.

Daze effects are often mind affecting or have a fort save, Dark Knowledge and Psychic Enervation aren't mind affecting, neither is Celerity. And none of them have a save.

[Agita]

Of note: The Fire-Souled template from Dragon 314 makes the base creature immune to Daze/Stun. No caveats, just plain immunity. The +3 LA hurts a lot, though.

[AfterCrescent]

In a LA buy-off or Free LA game, though, it's golden.

[Agita]

In a LA buy-off or Free LA game, though, it's golden.

True. Pity that most of its other abilities aren't actually worth a damn, because the saves (and CL) are based off racial HD, rather than just HD.

[Samb]

From the part that said undead are immune to daze since it is mind effecting. Although an undead useing psionic is silly to start with.

Daze effects are often mind affecting or have a fort save, Dark Knowledge and Psychic Enervation aren't mind affecting, neither is Celerity. And none of them have a save.

For the feat, quick recovery the DC is 10+1/2 CL+ CHR modifier. But I see what you mean.