Author Topic: Wilder handbook II  (Read 57362 times)

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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Wilder handbook II
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2009, 12:39:43 AM »
Is there any way to get a low level power to count as a higher level power for all purposes?
Make an advanced tattoo of it. That's the only way. There is no "Heighten Power". A Lesser Globe will stop a 1st level power no matter the augmentation.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Samb

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Re: Wilder handbook II
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2009, 12:48:07 AM »
Is there any way to get a low level power to count as a higher level power for all purposes?
Make an advanced tattoo of it. That's the only way. There is no "Heighten Power". A Lesser Globe will stop a 1st level power no matter the augmentation.
An advanced tattoo is just an augmented variant isn't it? 

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Wilder handbook II
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2009, 04:35:05 AM »
Is there any way to get a low level power to count as a higher level power for all purposes?
Make an advanced tattoo of it. That's the only way. There is no "Heighten Power". A Lesser Globe will stop a 1st level power no matter the augmentation.
An advanced tattoo is just an augmented variant isn't it? 
Sorry. That could have been more clear. :p If you use the expanded tattoo rules from the Getting Wired article, for every two power points that you augment a power that you're putting into a tattoo, it increases the level by +1 for all purposes. This is the only way to get a Heighten effect in Psionics that I know of. Of course, this will just be for self-targeting powers, but I'm sure there is still some use someone could get out of it.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Samb

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Re: Wilder handbook II
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2009, 07:01:59 PM »
Here's a build that I personally find to be extremely fun and pretty broken.

[spoiler]Human educated wilder9/cognition thief10/thrallherd1
Start with at 18 CHR and put 2 points into CHR.  
1)-9) wilder 1-9: Just make sure you take practised manifester, psionic blast, and inquisitor for the upcoming PrCs.  At level 9 you get a EK from educated variant, and a character feat. Pick EK: metamorphosis and metamorphic transfer. This is gives you wild surge +3, 9 ML with 4 more to make up for any future lose of MLs that you will be experiencing.
10) Cogniton thief 1: now you get schism and mindlink. If your allows for thieving mindlink to qualify for thrallherd then take that instead. Alternativily, you could take this PrC level anytime after wilder 7 and delay getting metamorphoisis instead.
11)thrallherd 1: with 20 CHR you should be getting max number of beleivers and thralls.
12)-20) CogThief 2-10 at CT 7 get your level 9 telepath powers and start doing experiments on your followers like what I discribed in the PrC section.  Just make sure you and your thrall stay above level 17 so you can get 9th level powers "installed" into your head. Psychic chiurgery and reformation to get all the powers you could ever want. Pick up metacncert as well to really increase your cheese.    

This build is more or less a social build until metamorphosis and SVP combo is up. Or you could use true mind switch to get to get your perfect body.

Samb

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Re: Wilder handbook II
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2009, 01:00:48 AM »
More builds:

Non enervating wilder: (from the CO boards)
[spoiler]Illumian with improved krau sigil
wilder9/cleric (Illmater)1/psychic thuerage 10
Ends up with 19ML and 11 CL, and the all important favor of Illmater.  Too bad you will only have wild surge+4, but still it is an improvement if your party cleric refuses to use Illmater as his/her patron god.[/spoiler]

Army of one:
[spoiler]Shifter educated and mantled (creation) wilder
wilder5(with shifter sub)/ectopic adept 5/ thrallherd 10
You will be spending most of your feats to fullfill the requirements.  The mantle will allow you to get AC at level one and get ectopic form one feat into skill focus all can be done be level 5.  You will need to spend an EK on mindlink and a feat on inquisitor for thrallherd.  So by the end of 20 levels you will have 2 AC, one metamorphosed psicrystal, 2 high level thralls, and a fissioned copy of yourself.  7 people for at least seven attacks each round!  The main drawback to this build is that you lose 3 ML and there are no tricks to get them back (unlike cognition thief).  Still this build will allow you be party onto yourself and that is really something in of itself.[/spoiler]


Raging wilder:
[spoiler]
 Originally Posted by carnivore
Shifter
Barbarian 1/ Wilder sub lvl 1/ Wilder 3/ Slayer 8/ Champion of Gwyenfer 2/ Cognition Thief 5

Shifter Substitution level allows Shifter Wilders to choose powers from the Egoist Discipline list

this build will have:

BAB +16
14th lvl Manifester with 170PP + Cha bonus points
7th lvl powers......Psion/Wilder list or Egoist
2 bonus powers from Telepath Discipline list 6th level or lower
2 bonus powers from Telepath Discipline list 5th level or lower
Psi-like abilities:
confusion 1/day
read thoughts 2/day
Cha to all saves
Rage 2/day
cast Divine spells

required feats:
Inquisitor
Track
Favored of Champions
Righteous Rage[/spoiler]

Defensive wilder:
[spoiler]
 Originally Posted by Foxylady
Oh yes, there is. Single-classed Wilder 20! It's not my build, but I forgot to save the author's name, so I'm sorry for not giving proper attribution. Build plus commentary follows:

Here's the build, with one or two details not quite settled. Right now, Thicken Skin is left out in favor of Dominate and Expansion and Dispelling Buffer (at 20th it is literally impossible to dispel fully surged and buffered powers, except with Disjunction). I also avoided Force Screen, in favor of a normal shield (animated, of course).

Race: Aasimar
Class: Wilder
Stats: (includes racial adjustment)
STR 8
DEX 8
CON 12 (so I can survive until I get metamorph)
INT 14
WIS 16
CHA 20 (all stat increases go here too, maxing at 24)

Skills: (6 per lvl)
Tumble
Concentration
Use Psionic Device (So I can make a psicrown with some utilities
that I don't take as powers, eg Teleport, Touchsight, etc.)
Bluff
Spot*
Listen
other possibilities
(Psicraft)
(Use Magic Device) - to be totally self-reliant
(Sense Motive)
*possibly take only one of Spot and Listen, relying on Touchsight
should the sense be activated

The *'s below represent feats.

Level progression: (class level)
1: Extend Power*, Inertial Armor
2: Defensive Precognition
3: Combat Reflexes* (or Empower Power, Psicrystal Affinity, etc.)
4: Energy Adaptation, Specified
5: -
6: Claws of the Beast*, Dispel Psionics
7: -
8: Intellect Fortress
9: Expansion* (or Thicken Skin)
10: Power Resistance
11: -
12: Metamorphosis*, Temporal Acceleration
13: -
14: Mind Blank
15: Dominate*
16: Energy Wave
17: -
18: Moment of Prescience, Dispelling Buffer* (or Thicken Skin)?
19: -

I didn't max the AC spells as much, because even with just the above, this would be my 20th lvl character in a (tough) fight:

Round one: Temporal Acceleration (aug once, extended)
(accelerated round): Morph to horned devil
(acc rnd 2): Defensive Precog +9
(acc rnd 3): Expansion 2
(acc rnd 4): Power Resistance 37 (if magic looks likely), or perhaps burn this round for enervation from a surge.
(all the while moving next to my opponent)
Round one (cont'd): Full Attack with 2 12d6 claws

Without PR, that's about ... 7 + 25 + 9 = 41 pps, and this is for the really big battle (60 for enervation though)

Already, my ac is
10 (base)
+19 (natural)
+5 (amulet of natural armor)
+5 (animated shield)
+7 (Dex)
+16 (inertial armor)
+5 (ring of protection)
+9 (Precog Defnsive)
-3 (size)
-------
73

Fighting defensively, the Tarrasque would need a natural 20 to hit (+57 melee), which I think is the best attack in the game. I could do better though, if I gave up things like dominate, dispelling buffer, and energy wave, but I think it is diminishing returns at that point.

Touch AC: 10 (base) + 7 (Dex) + 10 (Cha, elude touch) + 5 (ring) + 9 (precog)
= 41

What's even better is the flexibility. Say that 73 AC is overkill (surprise), but my opponent is also really hard to hit. Change into a Cerebrilith (outsider in XPH) and use Unavoidable Strike on him, taking the AC down to 63, but now making one touch melee attack per round.

And of course, if it's damage that one wants, (and AC is less of an issue), consider the 12 headed hydra. With expansion, that's 12 x 4d8 attacks, without requiring a full round action.

For all day buffs I would have fully surged Claws, Inertial Armor, and all types of Energy Adaptations. Mind Blank and Dispelling Buffer are up, too. I'll assume that on average, at this level, surge points aren't 'free' since the expected number of enervations cancels out, so the morning buffs would cost 19 + 25 + 5*5 = 79. I realize that the specified energy adaptation is costly this way, but I have trouble fitting the 4th level power in without sacrificing something else I want, although there are variants which could do it. Anyway, assume a total of 406 pps (311 + 95 from Cha). Also, the first two powers can last 25 hours, so I could have put them up the night before with any leftover points I had from that day (or extended them for 2 days of buffs, saving more pps.) So, conservatively, I have 327 pps remaining to play with, and more realistically, I have between 356 and 381.

With respect to the first round of combat, I would surge everything fully, since I have allowed for one failed round. Actually, I could just add another augment to the Temporal Acceleration and have all the time I could want, even for full enervations (however unlikely that is). I would like to end on a surge so that I get euphoria, but it is a minor point.

So, using the 'surges aren't free' mentality, the combo does cost about 40 pps (on average), thus limiting it to only 7 times per day (notice I am leaving significant wiggle room for other unexpected expenditures such as Intellect Fortress). Don't forget though that it is rare one will actually need 70+ AC, and most of the time some of the buffs may be unnecessary. (For example, I will likely have this character craft skin of proteus. This way, he can always be in the form of a 7 HD creature, which, when considering things like the Annis Hag, the Avoral, and perhaps a demon or devil (I don't recall off the top of my head if there are good low HD ones) should be plenty for all but the most fearsome encounters. Most critters and NPCs will have trouble contending with the 40+ armor this guy has without buffs, and expansion is really only necessary if you need to kill the critter fast. After all, 6d6 (plus str, etc.) per attack is not bad, and if the enemy can't hit you, you can take all day to whittle it down, if necessary.

Let's see, what else... The feats are all there in the progression. A power with a * is a power gained through Expanded Knowledge. You'll notice a starred entry at levels 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18, so all feats are accounted for.

Regarding the low level blasting, the character will likely always have a low level blasting power available (to help him get by while he waits for morph) which will eventually be replaced by Energy Wave (since I like that spell the best of those available) using psychic reformation (which he will take in order to make the change and then reform out of his list, perhaps after making a stone of it in case he needs it again).

I agree that for saves, MoP is not worth it. Fate of One is much better for that sort of thing, but it unfortunately would require one of those precious EK feats, specifically I'd have to give up either dispelling buffer or dominate. I've actually been considering it in place of dominate, because this guys saves will be sufficiently high that I imagine 1s are all he'll have to worry about (unless he is surprised), but it seems like diminishing marginal returns at that point, especially if you consider Power Resistance. Still a bit unsure though, since this guys whole point is to be a walking Timeless Body, and Fate of One would sure help that.[/spoiler]

Enjoy

Samb

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Re: Wilder handbook II
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2009, 11:37:37 PM »
Wild surge vs. Overchannel

I didn't think I would need to tell anyone this but wild surge is better than overchannel (85-95% of the time that is).  It seems many people feel that they are comparable and feel the wilder's main ability can be substituted by anyone with overchannel.  This is completely not true, wild surge is superior to overchannel in all the ways that matter.  The reasons for this should be obvious.  Wild surge give you more and take away less and does it faster.  

Note: this only compares overchannel to wild surge +3 since overchannel can only boost ML by 3 and the fact that to use wild surge +4-6 would be very dangerous for the user.


Progression:
Wild surge will give you +1 ML at level one, +2 at level three and +3 at level seven.  Compare this to overchannel: +1 from levels 1-7, +2 at level 8, and finally +3 at level 15. Let's not forget that it takes feat to use this as well, or two feats (talented) if you plan on using overchannel safely at lower levels.  If +3ML isn't enough for you, wild surge allows you bump your ML to an insane amount of +6ML, while overchannel stops at +3ML.


Benefits:
Only major differences here is that wild surge provides augmented PP for free, overchannel only allows you the option to pump more PP into a power.  By level 4, a wilder will also gain surging euphoria further increasing the benefits of wild surge over overchannel.

Side effects:
This is where wilder is most misunderstood.  The price of wild surge is psychic ennervation, which is not fun but only happens 1-3 times out of 20 which is pretty darn low.  85-95% of the time all you get from wild surge is pure benefit.  Compare this to the side effect of overchannel, which is not as severe as wild surge but happens 100% of the time.  So imagine using overchannel for a power like vigor for the PSV undying tank combo.  You use overchannel to take damage just to get 5 temp HP.  Counter-productive to say the least.

Talented can eliminate the dangers of overchannel but it has key weaknesses that limit its usefulness.  It can only be used on 1-3 level powers, which is not that bad if you consider that by the time you can manifest 4th level powers you can tolerate the damage.  But just because you can tolerate taking 1-5d8 points of damage doesn't mean it will not add up, especially for a scrawny psion.  Talented is the only way to stem the bleeding.  The real reason why talented is not a good feature is that it expends your focus.  This means that you cannot use the extra MLs to apply metapsionics, and you cannot use it twice in one round if you were schismed.  While there are ways to regain focus faster, like psionic meditation and hustle, they not only cost more feats but also more PP.  More PP will have a much greater effect on psywar since they have a relatively meager PP pool.


Summary and how to obtain the power of a wilder (without going too deep into it):
In sum, a psion or psywar would have to invest a considerable amount of feats to even come close to having wild surge like benefits.  This is significant because one of their major advantages over wilder is that they have more feats.  The best way to gain wild surge any other psi class is to dip into wilder and then take anarchic initiate 7.  This will gain you wild surge +3 and keep your higher level powers.

wilder1/psion12/anarchic initiate7: the ultimate psi-caster.  A lot of powers and wild surge+3 is simply amazing to behold.

wilder1/psywar12/anarchic initiate7: Only give up one level 6 power (they mostly suck anyway) for no lose in BAB (assuming fractional BAB) and wild surge+3.  Note that you can only enter AI PrC at level 13. An alternative to this wilding psywar is:

wilder4/psywar XX/PrC XX: If you don't like AI due to its strict/bizarre entry requirements then 4 levels of wilders will give a psywar +2 wild surge and surging euphoria, a great bonus to any in front line fighter.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 11:41:10 PM by Samb »

Samb

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Re: Wilder handbook II
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2009, 04:55:41 AM »
3rd party material:
I just got Untapped potential and it has some great additions to all psionics but since not all DMs will allow 3rd party stuff I'm gonna put this in a new post.  This book has perhaps the best racial substitution levels for wilder and I would go as far as to Meanads are the only race you would need to play wilders.  If your DM allows for Untapped Potential then skip my racial suggestions in the first page and take Meanad.  Read on to see why.

The key change is that Meanads don't become dazed when they enervate.  This is a level one ability that doesn't replace any features of a wilder (powers and PP gained, wild surge +1).  A Meanad will still lose PP when enervated however.

Level 3 will replace wild surge +2 for something called surging outburst.  This gives you +2 on ML when using wild surge that doesn't count toward enervation.  However, it also doesn't give you 2 free PP like wild surge does either.  On the whole this feature is only really usable if you take the meanad fury feat (CPsi) a few times since a meanad can only use outburst 1/day.  At 4/day or 7/day would ensure you have a hefty amount outbursts to make this feature really shine.

Level 5 (typo on the chart says level 6 but BAB, saves and text indicate level 5) you regain the wild surge +2 and you add two powers to your list of powers known instead of getting one EK from educated ACF.  The only problem is that the powers are sonic ray and sonic push....



I personally did not find anything useful in Hyperconsiouness, but I would love to be wrong.

I think this will be my last post on this handbook, if anyone else posts anything else they have found in playing this class I will gladly put it up but I think I've hit the pinnacle of wilder mastery.  I do hope that this will convince many of you to take another look at what I think is a very well balanced and fun class.

Thanks to awaken DM golem for the contribution on mantles and everyone whose questions made me probe wilder deeper.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 05:26:49 AM by Samb »

awaken DM golem

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Re: Wilder handbook II
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2011, 05:36:52 PM »
I wanted to put the math out there, for the early Wilder levels.

1st level, you can pick an Aug1 power that works with the class ability,
or you can pick another power, that keeps you behind the curve.
The obvious pick is an Aug1 power. That's a short list ... very short list.
The math is: 2/1.05pp = ~1.905 increase.
A straightforward build with 4 Psi talent feats takes 17pp up to ~34pp.
Not bad, but just one power.
Subbing in a Hidden Talent feat, gets the 2nd power but still from the very limited list.
The math goes about 14pp up to ~26pp.

2nd level, you could pick an Aug2 power, but the math isn't so good.
3/2.1pp = ~1.429 ... vs 2/1.1pp = 1.818 ... the ratio is 1.272 better.
Astral Construct is the perhaps best choice, but not automatically so.
And it has the rather good lineage (!!).
But an Aug1 has the numeric superiority.

3rd level, nets the +2 surge and lots more choices.
3/1.3pp = ~2.31 , and you're keeping pace on MLs with the full casters.
Here an Aug2 is a fully viable choice ; and retraining is a good idea !!
You could use full Wild Surge and get 3+2 MLs going,
but the math is 5/3.3pp = ~1.52 , still very good, but ~1.52 ratio worse.
You can pick an Aug3 power and go 2+2 ; 4/2.3pp = ~1.74 not bad.
You can pick an Aug4 power and go 3+2 , as above.
The problem with Aug3s and Aug4s here, is you have to use WS no options.
Aug1s and Aug2s are strictly superior.

4th level opens the door for a recharge set-up.
This was considered T.O. right from the get go.
Bestow at 1st aug with WS+2 and one more pp discount = do-able.
Technically speaking it is not a true recharge, in that failure is possible.
The net gain math is 3.4 in , to get 4 out = ~1.18 ratio , but over and over.
Let's say you enervate twice ; about a 1% happening.
You still need the 3pp to try again.
From the bottom up 3*1.18=3.54 ; 3.54*1.18=4.18 ; 4.18*1.18=4.93 etc ...
You are dealing in whole numbers, vs. the math being "tricky".
So instead think of it not as recharge, but really efficient and wonky pp production.
You will get screwed some time, and you might be screwed at the wrong time.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2011, 06:34:24 PM by awaken DM golem »

Kethrian

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Re: Wilder handbook II
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2011, 01:53:20 AM »
I took a look at Cvazi's thread on Wilders, and I'm a little confused.  He says that if you enervate, you fail to manifest your power, in addition to the daze and loss of PPs.  Yet, according to the rules, wild surge occurs at the time of manifesting, and enervation occurs immediately after the wild surge.  Therefore, shouldn't you still get your surged power off before becoming dazed?

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Wilder handbook II
« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2011, 08:33:10 PM »
What's a PSP? Isn't that a Sony handheld?
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
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[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

awaken DM golem

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Re: Wilder handbook II
« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2011, 10:36:37 PM »
I took a look at Cvazi's thread on Wilders, and I'm a little confused.  He says that if you enervate, you fail to manifest your power, in addition to the daze and loss of PPs.  Yet, according to the rules, wild surge occurs at the time of manifesting, and enervation occurs immediately after the wild surge.  Therefore, shouldn't you still get your surged power off before becoming dazed?

Here's what that link gets you:

Quote from: cvazi
Wild Surge/Psychic Enervation:
This ability is the compensation for the low number of powers known.  This ability allows the wilder to conserve its power points at early levels and for grueling dungeon crawls.  Simultaneously, this ability allows the Wilder to perform augment powers far beyond by the capabilities of an equal level Psion.  The cost of this incredible power is the potential for Psychic Enervation.  For this reason, the wilder will rarely surge for more than 2 points.  Still, a +2 manifester level per manifestation will make a definite difference in combat.


<snip>


The Wilder and The Nova:

Simply put, the Wilder is not a class well designed to nova.  The Wilder simply does not have the feats and powers known to invest in a nova combo.  Also, the signature ability of the Wilder the wild surge, is not conductive of manifesting multiple powers per round.  The psychic enervation drawback to wild surging will stop the Wilder's entire Nova turn.  Therefore if you do design a Wilder to nova, the wilder really will a one-trick pony who cannot use his signature move during his one trick.


Maybe where this doesn't quite make sense, is the Wilder "nova" can get jacked by the Daze from psychic enervation.
Normally a Wilder is not going to try to nova, at all.

Not nova (at all):
Power + Surge + oops enervation = Power goes off Surged , and then the costs of enervation happen.

Still works and rather well.

Kethrian

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Re: Wilder handbook II
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2011, 03:08:17 AM »
Hmmm...  I can't seem to find the exact line.  Maybe it was a different article on wilders?  I did read a few consecutively...

But if you agree that the power is supposed to still get fired off, instead of interrupted, then I'm happy.

Amechra

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Re: Wilder handbook II
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2011, 10:46:46 PM »
Hmmm...

Could you dip Cognition Thief, and then use the altered power-learning method to get good use out of, say, Metamind?

Because, well, you could do some neat stuff with that...
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

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nijineko

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Re: Wilder handbook II
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2011, 04:20:59 AM »
it was pointed out to me by lycan that wild surge is not limited to the wilder class list of powers, but rather to any power that the character knows. i did not notice this clearly pointed out as an advantage of wild surge, but maybe i missed it in the other interesting things i was reading. it can be handy to be able to surge psywar or ardent powers.

powers used from power stones, powers manifested from psicrowns, and manifesting from another psionic creature's powers known are also valid targets of wild surge, iirc. worth mentioning if i am recalling correctly.
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