Author Topic: Shugenja Handbook  (Read 53880 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Omen of Peace

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1053
  • Wise Madman
Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #40 on: May 12, 2009, 07:07:02 PM »
Other PrCs of interest for Shugenjas:
- Singer of Concordance (RotD): to qualify, the only real constraint is that you must be dragonblooded and worship Io. You gain a good Ref save, a domain at level 2 and some useless-to-nice abilities.
Fluff-wise, it suits Earth and Water Shugenjas better IMO.

- Earth Dreamer (RoS): easy to qualify for (1 feat), this PrC grants really cool abilities. Very flavorful for an Earth Shugenja as well.

- Shadowcraft Mage (RoS) is actually accessible: in Eberron, the Shadow domain has the whole Shadow Conj/Evoc line. Get it with Contemplative and have fun. Suits Air Shugenjas well (if they then proceed to take Earth Sense/Spell to optimize, it's their problem !). Build: Shugenja 10/Contemplative 1/ScM 5/X 4 - late blooming but... you're an ScM !

- it's possible to qualify (late via Contemplative) for Holt Warden (CC) but I'd recommend against it.

- Mythic Exemplar (CC) is easy to qualify for but loses 1 or 2 CL.

- Rimefire Witch (Frostburn) requires 2 feats. It gives decent abilities that should suit a WS well (one is a cold Eldritch Blast-alike).

- In the same book, the Winterhaunt is underwhelming.

- Stormcaster (Stormwrack) can only be taken by Air and Fire Shugenjas. It loses a CL but is pretty cool otherwise.

That's all for today. :)

******************
Air Shugenja 5/Divine Oracle 5/Contemplative 2
Order of the Forbidding Wasteland for Phantom Stag & Control Weather
or Order of the All-Seeing Eye for Divination & Find the Path
or Order of the Spring Zephyr for Disguise Self, Invisibility, Air Walk, Greater Invisibility
Contemplative Domain: whatever

Feats
1 SF: Illusion
3 Spontaneous Healer (CD)
6 Transdimensional Spell (CA)
9 Invisible Spell (City)
12 Extra Spell: Dimension Door ?
Get SF: Know. Religion from a Flaw or the Magical Location in CS.

Spell list
Order spells not included since I'm offering a choice.)
1 Disguise Self, Expeditious Retreat or Feather Fall, Silent Image
Cure Light Wounds, Faerie Fire or Speak with Animals

2 Detect Thoughts or Resist Energy, Silence, Color Spray
Produce Flame, Fog Cloud or Lesser Restoration

3 Haste, Major Image
Keen Edge

4 Air Walk, Hallucinatory Terrain
Wall of Fire or Restoration

5 Control Winds or Greater Invisibility or Dimension Door
Confusion

6 Cloudkill or Greater Dispel Magic or Teleport

Comments
- I'm taking a different tack here, trying to focus on the cool spells Air Shugenjas get rather than on external abilities. You could even drop the PrCs (you don't always get to meet an envoy from your divinity, after all).
The Air list is much stronger: this is a build I could almost play from level 1 to 12, unlike the others. You're missing out on Glitterdust but otherwise you're pretty ok. The feats are pretty free as well - you could go for Touch of Healing or for more metamagic...
It plays like an Illusionist Sorcerer with some control/debuff, some healing/buffing and some utility.

- Gnome is a good race here.

As usual, comments welcome.
The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Steven Erikson

InnaBinder

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1610
  • OnnaTable
    • Okay - - Your Turn: Monte Cook's Message Board
Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2009, 08:39:05 PM »
Quote
I hope you don't mind my ranting too much.  :) Casters with limited spell lists make me cranky ; so the fact that the Shugenjas actually have added restrictions...   :bash
Rant away; ranting about something generally means you're paying some attention and actually give some large fraction of a rodent's backside about the topic.  As far as I can tell, the primary reason nobody made a Shugenja handbook until a year after 4E was out is they're just not very popular.  There are some good and sound reasons for that lack of popularity: no support from WotC in additional spells and versatility that rivals a Wilder's  :wow, chief among them.  They are viable, though, to a greater degree than several other base classes thanks to spell access.

Build and PrC sections have been updated with the additions from Omen of Peace.
Winning an argument on the internet is like winning in the Special Olympics.  You won, but you're still retarded.

I made a Handbook!?

Omen of Peace

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1053
  • Wise Madman
Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #42 on: May 13, 2009, 02:11:15 PM »
Penultimate chapter !  :D

Earth Shugenja 5/Divine Oracle 2/Earth Dreamer 5 (future levels: DO +8)
Dream Dwarf (RoS)
Order of the Consuming Flame
or Order of the Forbidding Wasteland
or Order of the Gentle Rain
Contemplative Domain: any

Feats
1 Earth Sense (RoS)
3 SF: K: Religion
6 Spontaneous Healer (CD) or Extend Spell
9 Spontaneous Summoner (CD)
12 Summon Elemental (CM)

Spell list
1 Endure Elements, Pass Without Trace, Shield of Faith
Cure Light Wounds, Faerie Fire

2 Barkskin, Bear's Endurance, Glitterdust
Fog Cloud, Resist Energy

3 Greater Magic Weapon, Summon Nature's Ally III
Divination (Oracle Domain)

4 Death Ward, Spike Stones
Wall of Fire or Scrying (Oracle Domain)

5 Wall of Stone
Confusion

6 Greater Dispel Magic

(Order spells are not included.)

Comments
A lot of buffing available at low levels and not much else except Glitterdust. Later on you get great control thanks to Walls.
At all levels, abuse divinations (Gentle Rain adds Augury which can be nice).

Dream Dwarf is very flavorful but there are other options.
- Raptoran or Dragonborn X with the Wings aspect, to use Fly-By Attack combined with Earth Glide (if allowed by the DM).
- a small race, so that you can mount the Medium elemental you get from the reserve feat - you emulate Fly-By Attack that way (move out of the ground, cast, go back in it).
See the Mole Handbook for more ideas.
Mobile Spellcasting is another possibility if your DM frowns on the above.

It's playable at low levels but barely. I find the Air Shugenja better balanced across all levels. That said, the WS build can probably be improved by transitioning to... Earth. You get Dismissal more easily so you can choose a better Order.

**************************************
Quote
(IB's note: on the fence about a BLUE vs. TEAL rating for this one.  No Domain access and fairly campaign-specific abilities, along with a reduction in HD.  Thoughts?)
Campaign-specific is a bit harsh. Whether in the wilderness, in a stone dungeon or a city with stone buildings, you'll get to use the capstone, Earth Glide. That excludes... naval adventures and adventures to the Plane of Fire.  :p

Also, why do you think domain access is so good for Shugenjas ? The only automatic benefit is the domain power. Contemplative is very good for Shugs only because they have no class feature after level 1 and they can't qualify for many other PrCs...
In any case, Earth Dreamer is very compatible with Divine Oracle and it's only 5 levels long so it doesn't delay Contemplative by much if you want it badly.

Quote
(IB's note: if X 4 = another BLUE PrC, the overall level of awesome for the build is TEAL IMHO.)
You get the ScM ability at level 14, so it's Teal-at-high-levels. Which is fine, a lot of CO builds are like that.

While we're at it, I'll note that Divine Oracle's Evasion isn't all that it's cracked up to be given that a Shugenja's Ref save will suck. The level 3 ability is fantastic if your DM doesn't nerf divinations... but you need to pick the spells to go with it (Augury, Divination). They are available thanks to the domain but they take up known slots.
**************************************
Moonspeaker (RoE) works fairly well for Shifter Shugenjas (an odd combination to start with, admittedly). So:
Shifter Shugenja 8/Moonspeaker 12
OR Shifter Shugenja 8/Moonspeaker 5/Planar Shepherd 7  :birthday
For people who don't mind late-blooming builds, that's pretty golden. Full casting, and you get Planar Bubble at level 18. You miss out on Outsider Wildshape before epic though.
**************************************
I've accumulated enough material to start my own Handbook...  :lol
The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Steven Erikson

InnaBinder

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1610
  • OnnaTable
    • Okay - - Your Turn: Monte Cook's Message Board
Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #43 on: May 13, 2009, 04:25:11 PM »
Quote
Campaign-specific is a bit harsh. Whether in the wilderness, in a stone dungeon or a city with stone buildings, you'll get to use the capstone, Earth Glide. That excludes... naval adventures and adventures to the Plane of Fire.
Also the Ethereal and Astral Planes and the Elemental Planes that aren't Earth.   :p  With my last two DMs, those exceptions came up often enough to give pause to considering Earth Dreamer's ability 'automatically' fantabulous.  Different experiences produce different expectations.

Quote
Also, why do you think domain access is so good for Shugenjas ? The only automatic benefit is the domain power. Contemplative is very good for Shugs only because they have no class feature after level 1 and they can't qualify for many other PrCs...
Extra.  Spells.  The thing I consider a Shugenja's biggest drawback is the lack of spell versatility.  The thing that makes Contemplative so good for them is that it can add nine additional spells to their arsenal, in whatever variety you need, with very little planning needed on your part.  I consider the Domain power to be an additional automatic benefit.  Oracle Domain spells are really quite generally useful, as is the granted domain power, and Prescient Sense - even with a bad Reflex save - means there's a tertiary benefit to advancing this class automatically. 
Winning an argument on the internet is like winning in the Special Olympics.  You won, but you're still retarded.

I made a Handbook!?

Omen of Peace

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1053
  • Wise Madman
Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #44 on: May 13, 2009, 07:15:58 PM »
Quote
Campaign-specific is a bit harsh. Whether in the wilderness, in a stone dungeon or a city with stone buildings, you'll get to use the capstone, Earth Glide. That excludes... naval adventures and adventures to the Plane of Fire.
Also the Ethereal and Astral Planes and the Elemental Planes that aren't Earth.   :p  With my last two DMs, those exceptions came up often enough to give pause to considering Earth Dreamer's ability 'automatically' fantabulous.  Different experiences produce different expectations.
But then how come you don't think the Shadowcraft Mage sucks ? With no Plane of Shadow nearby and/or no earth under your feet, you're just a normal caster.

Quote
Quote
Also, why do you think domain access is so good for Shugenjas ? The only automatic benefit is the domain power. Contemplative is very good for Shugs only because they have no class feature after level 1 and they can't qualify for many other PrCs...
Extra.  Spells.  The thing I consider a Shugenja's biggest drawback is the lack of spell versatility.  The thing that makes Contemplative so good for them is that it can add nine additional spells to their arsenal, in whatever variety you need, with very little planning needed on your part.  I consider the Domain power to be an additional automatic benefit.  Oracle Domain spells are really quite generally useful, as is the granted domain power, and Prescient Sense - even with a bad Reflex save - means there's a tertiary benefit to advancing this class automatically. 
« Last Edit: May 13, 2009, 07:18:26 PM by Omen of Peace »
The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Steven Erikson

InnaBinder

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1610
  • OnnaTable
    • Okay - - Your Turn: Monte Cook's Message Board
Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #45 on: May 13, 2009, 08:19:03 PM »
Quote
But then how come you don't think the Shadowcraft Mage sucks ?
Higher than room temperature IQ and direct observational evidence.  :)  Note that I never said Earth Dreamer sucks, and marked it as at least a Good option, just not necessarily a GREAT one.  There's a rather large gulf between sucks and good.

Domain selection is largely going to mimic the best options for a Cleric.  I'll put up a list of good ones here soon, and invite others to do the same.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2009, 08:23:32 PM by InnaBinder »
Winning an argument on the internet is like winning in the Special Olympics.  You won, but you're still retarded.

I made a Handbook!?

Omen of Peace

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1053
  • Wise Madman
Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #46 on: May 13, 2009, 09:05:00 PM »
Quote
But then how come you don't think the Shadowcraft Mage sucks ?
Higher than room temperature IQ and direct observational evidence.  :)  Note that I never said Earth Dreamer sucks, and marked it as at least a Good option, just not necessarily a GREAT one.  There's a rather large gulf between sucks and good.
Yeah, I tend to exaggerate. You should know by now, I keep saying everything sucks. ;)

But my point was that ScM can become useless when plane-hopping (depending on the cosmology), which was apparently your big objection against Earth Dreamer. Anyway, I'll stop bothering you and I'll probably just put up my own list of comments on the various feats & PrCs. :)
The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Steven Erikson

InnaBinder

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1610
  • OnnaTable
    • Okay - - Your Turn: Monte Cook's Message Board
Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #47 on: May 18, 2009, 12:23:02 AM »
Updated with notes on PHB-dipping and Domain choices.
Winning an argument on the internet is like winning in the Special Olympics.  You won, but you're still retarded.

I made a Handbook!?

Kuroimaken

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 6733
Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2009, 10:43:36 PM »
going places.  ;)

Granted, it's a two-feat investment at least (possibly less if you don't mind losing caster levels), but unlike DMM, where you need one for EACH metamagic you use, Lyric Spell covers them all.

One other thing worthy of note. Your chosen element counts as having the Spell Focus feat, always. By itself this is INCREDIBLY lackluster - however, allow me to point towards Metamagic School Focus.

And it goes for every feat/PrC that requires Spell Focus, too.

By the way, Inna, love the handbook. I kinda giggled at my assessment of the class being called gospel, given that you contributed a heck of a lot more than I did.  :p
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


Akalsaris

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1143
    • Email
Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #49 on: July 29, 2009, 12:48:53 PM »
Not sure if it was mentioned yet, but Complete Champion has some new shugenja spells!  Pg. 116, 4 new spells - 3 are battlefield control-ish, 1 is a weak buff spell.

Kuroimaken

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 6733
Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #50 on: July 29, 2009, 01:15:19 PM »
Not sure if it was mentioned yet, but Complete Champion has some new shugenja spells!  Pg. 116, 4 new spells - 3 are battlefield control-ish, 1 is a weak buff spell.

Wow, we'll have to withdraw our previous statements regarding WotC's lack of support for the shugenja!  :D

Hmm. Y'know, I'm wondering if there isn't some sort of Ultimate Magus option for Divine casters.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


InnaBinder

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1610
  • OnnaTable
    • Okay - - Your Turn: Monte Cook's Message Board
Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #51 on: July 29, 2009, 01:53:52 PM »
Quote
:) I might have mentioned it.
Winning an argument on the internet is like winning in the Special Olympics.  You won, but you're still retarded.

I made a Handbook!?

Kuroimaken

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 6733
Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #52 on: July 29, 2009, 06:24:50 PM »
Whoopsie.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


Surreal

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1430
    • Email
Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #53 on: July 30, 2009, 04:31:55 AM »
Hmm. Y'know, I'm wondering if there isn't some sort of Ultimate Magus option for Divine casters.
It's called Ur-priest plus any dual progression class :D
---
"The late, sedate, and no to great." ~Surreal

Some Handy Links for CO Work (WotC 339 version) - a compilation of links for base/prestige class handbooks, tactics, spellcasting, character builds, D&D databases, etc.
Archived version of the above with working links

The Mango Index - a giant index for all things D&D and where to find them
The Mango List Reborn! - rehosted by KellKheraptis

Lists of Stuff - listing of class features etc and how to get them, etc. sort of like above but a little more specific and sorted by category
Polymorph, Wildshape and Shapechange, oh my! (comparison charts) - side-by-side comparison of all the various form altering abilities
Alternative Class Features
alternative ways to get class skills

Kuroimaken

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 6733
Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #54 on: July 30, 2009, 12:59:29 PM »
Hmm. Y'know, I'm wondering if there isn't some sort of Ultimate Magus option for Divine casters.
It's called Ur-priest plus any dual progression class :D

I meant double divine progression.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


juton

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 809
  • Jack of all trades, master of nothing.
    • Email
Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #55 on: July 30, 2009, 04:51:44 PM »
Related question, how exactly is Shugenja pronounced? I've heard:

Shu-GEN-Ga
and
Shu-GEN-Wa

Are either of these correct?

Kuroimaken

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 6733
Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #56 on: July 30, 2009, 05:38:37 PM »
Related question, how exactly is Shugenja pronounced? I've heard:

Shu-GEN-Ga
and
Shu-GEN-Wa

Are either of these correct?

Neither. Read as Shu-GAIN-ja.

EDIT: Hey, how do you guys like the idea of a Hathran Shugenja? Plenty of potential for Earth, and even a little for Fire. Water and Air don't benefit enough from CL increases or Heighten/Empower/Maximize to make it worthwhile, though.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 07:00:17 PM by Kuroimaken »
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


Surreal

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1430
    • Email
Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #57 on: July 30, 2009, 08:09:00 PM »
OA has a pronunciation guide on p.251... it says "shoo-gen-jah"
---
"The late, sedate, and no to great." ~Surreal

Some Handy Links for CO Work (WotC 339 version) - a compilation of links for base/prestige class handbooks, tactics, spellcasting, character builds, D&D databases, etc.
Archived version of the above with working links

The Mango Index - a giant index for all things D&D and where to find them
The Mango List Reborn! - rehosted by KellKheraptis

Lists of Stuff - listing of class features etc and how to get them, etc. sort of like above but a little more specific and sorted by category
Polymorph, Wildshape and Shapechange, oh my! (comparison charts) - side-by-side comparison of all the various form altering abilities
Alternative Class Features
alternative ways to get class skills

Kuroimaken

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 6733
Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #58 on: July 30, 2009, 08:24:33 PM »
OA has a pronunciation guide on p.251... it says "shoo-gen-jah"

That works better. I was going with Portuguese pronunciation (where "gen" is readed as in "jen", and "guen" is readed as "gain") so I got a little mixed-up.  :)
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


Akalsaris

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1143
    • Email
Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #59 on: July 31, 2009, 06:49:04 AM »
OA has a pronunciation guide on p.251... it says "shoo-gen-jah"

That would definitely be the Japanese pronunciation at least. Though you don't want to stress the shoo part, it should be muted, with emphasis on gen and then a distinct 'ja.'  Like shuGEN-JYA.

And a quick check from my Japanese dictionary reveals:

??? ???????? (n) mountaineering ascetic