Shugenja Handbook

[Optimator]

So, I'd be interested in having an experienced Fire Shugenja player post a list of spells known - perhaps Kuro still has his old character around ?

Good luck with that. I hear they burn their sheets after dying.
 

This brightened my day. 

[Omen of Peace]

Oh, my gods, the PAIN ! 
I just tried to build a Water Shugenja. Perhaps it's because it's been a long time since I built a spontaneous caster with a limited list... But it really does suck.

Shugenja 5/Divine Oracle 3/Sacred Exorcist 1/Divine Oracle +1/Contemplative 2
Order of the Impenetrable Crucible
Contemplative Domain: War

I honestly prefer the Order of the Spring Zephyr, but I was forced to take the Order of the Impenetrable Crucible to 1) qualify earlier for SE 2) be able to take Divine Power as a spell known earlier (otherwise Dismissal blocks the "any school" 4th level slot for a while).

Feats
1 Law Devotion (CD) (retrained from Augment Healing (CD) at level 9 or so)
3 Animal Devotion (CC) - for versatility ; you have to wait level 9 to use it more than once per day *shakes head sadly*
6 Extend Spell
9 Persistent Spell (CA)
12 DMM: Persist (CD)
Get SF: Know. Religion from a Flaw or the Magical Location in CS ; or drop Law Devotion.

Spell list
1 Cure Light Wounds, Obscuring Mist, Speak with Animals
Magic Weapon
Shield of Faith, Silent Image

2 Fog Cloud, Lesser Restoration, Resist Energy
Sound Burst
Glitterdust, Silence

3 Cure Serious Wounds, Dispel Magic
Greater Magic Weapon
Haste

4 Cure Critical Wounds, Restoration
Dismissal
Divine Power

5 Righteous Might
Death Ward
Control Winds

6 Heal
Banishment

Strategy
Persist Divine Power and Righteous Might - use 1 Nightstick. Congrats ! You're now a subpar Cleric. 
You do have a few cool tricks up your sleeves: Control Winds to clean up the battlefield, Haste and GMW to buff everyone, Glitterdust to debuff, Silence and Dispel Magic for utility (sneaking, traps) and bothering casters. Silent Image for great versatility. And healing up the wazoo.

Level-by-level:
1-3: spam Sleep.
4-5: retrain Sleep. Spam Glitterdust - you'll get a Rod of Sculpting (MIC) later.
6: spam Glitterdust, and Dispel as needed.
7-9: Haste at the beginning of each fight. Then as above.
10: you can try Righteous Might, but you'll suck in melee. Wait a bit by spamming <see above>.
11: Control Winds - learn to love it. It will get better as your CL increases.
12: hallelujah ! 

Comments
- You will only use some of your known spells once every month. It bothers me even though I predicted it.

- While this looks ok at level 12, you kinda sucked on the way there: Persist is a dead feat before DMM, Extend you probably only used on GMW. I recommend liberal use of retraining (get Craft Magic Arms and Armors and retrain it later, etc...).
edit: I expanded the strategy section to make this clearer.

Future works
I'll do a Fire Shugenja at some point. Using DMM: Empower may actually make their blasting worthwhile ; I'm not sure what they'd use Persist on. I do see what you meant bout options: FS will likely be more fun.
This also makes me like Anima Mage even more ; all the domain-granting PrCs are not that cool when you need to spend a spell known slot on their domain spells...

Other houserule suggestion: beg your DM on your knees to let you have Divine Runestaffs ! Simply having the option to cast a few more Air/Earth spells will liven your game up.

[InnaBinder]

That's it, young Skywalker.  Feel the hate.  Give in to the Dark Side.... 

[Omen of Peace]

Despite how much I dislike it, it's actually strong from level 12 on. Stronger than the Fire Shugenja as far as I can see... 
...thanks solely to Righteous Might. 

[Sinfire Titan]

Despite how much I dislike it, it's actually strong from level 12 on. Stronger than the Fire Shugenja as far as I can see... 
...thanks solely to Righteous Might. 

This seems to be a problem with most classes in 3.5. It's one of the following problems, no matter the class (some exceptions apply):

1: The class is too powerful at lower levels, but sucks at the mid/high levels. (Pre-Bo9S melee classes, an optimized Truenamer)
2: The class is powerful only in the mid/late levels. (Spell to Power Erudite, some of the various Artificer builds that aren't truly powerful until 7th or 8th level)
3: The class is unplayable at any level due to inferior class features/limits imposed on the class. (CW Samurai, Truenamer, Divine Mind)
4: The class is broken to the point that gods cringe at the mention of it's 1st level class features. (The Big 6)
5: The class is actually balanced, but receives very bad backlash from inexperienced DMs or due to past stigma. (Psionics  in general, the Bo9S as a whole)






This class may just need an expanded spell list and more PrC support.

[Ivory Knight]

I just posted this one in Air Born combat, is it worth optimizing?

Shugenja/ Dragonfire Adept/ Sacred Exorcist/ Eldritch Disciple

What pains me is the need for Shugenja 8, to get Dismissal as a Spell known(Earth).
Ideas on that:
A dip into (cloistered) Cleric would only cost 1 Level, get Turning and 2-3 Domains and possibly good Skillpoints if taken at first Charakterlevel.
Seems to be the best option, as no need for dismissal and Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten can be used for early entry into Eldritch Disciple at
ECL 5, with Cloistered Cleric 1/Dragonfire Adept 2/ Shugenja 2.

Doesn't gain 9th Level divine Spells, unless I switch to:

Shugenja 8/Warlock 1/Sacred Exorcist 1/ Eldritch Disciple 10
Could replace Shugenja 8 with:
Shugenja 5/ Divine Oracle 3 -> 1 crappy Feat for Oracle Domain + Evasion
or
Shugenja 6/ Paragnostic Apostle 2 -> just profit
or
Shugenja 4(Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten)/ Paragnostic Apostle 2/ Divine Oracle 2 -> my favorite
or even
Shugenja 4(Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten)/ Paragnostic Apostle 4 -> decent, if you can't spare the Feat for DO


I left the original build in for comparison, but I'd give up improving on it(the Warlock-version looks better.
As for Elements:
- No to Air, as I need dismissal(which is earth) for SE
- Fire has the least to gain(already good at blasting, gets no healing aside from Healing Blast)
- Earth is a pretty solid choice(Invocations can replace some Air Spells, but not Haste)
- Water is even better IMHO(Warlock blasting replaces Fire Spells nicely)

[InnaBinder]

Shugenja/ Dragonfire Adept/ Sacred Exorcist/ Eldritch Disciple

What pains me is the need for Shugenja 8, to get Dismissal as a Spell known(Earth).
Ideas on that:
A dip into (cloistered) Cleric would only cost 1 Level, get Turning and 2-3 Domains and possibly good Skillpoints if taken at first Charakterlevel.
Seems to be the best option, as no need for dismissal and Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten can be used for early entry into Eldritch Disciple at
ECL 5, with Cloistered Cleric 1/Dragonfire Adept 2/ Shugenja 2.

Doesn't gain 9th Level divine Spells, unless I switch to:

Shugenja 8/Warlock 1/Sacred Exorcist 1/ Eldritch Disciple 10
Could replace Shugenja 8 with:
Shugenja 5/ Divine Oracle 3 -> 1 crappy Feat for Oracle Domain + Evasion
or
Shugenja 6/ Paragnostic Apostle 2 -> just profit
or
Shugenja 4(Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten)/ Paragnostic Apostle 2/ Divine Oracle 2 -> my favorite
or even
Shugenja 4(Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten)/ Paragnostic Apostle 4 -> decent, if you can't spare the Feat for DO

Earth Shugenja 6/Warlock 1/Sacred Exorcist 1/Divine Oracle 2/Eldritch Disciple 10 would be my suggestion, if ElD 10 is the goal.  You're dipped into a blasting class, so you don't need Fire as much as you might otherwise, and ElD will eventually help your mobility issues you create by forfeiting Air.  I personally have not seen a ruling that allows Versatile + Heighten to provide you faster access to the higher level spells you'd need for the Paragnostic Apostle route.  If you or someone could provide a link, I might reconsider.

[Omen of Peace]

Shugenja 5/Divine Oracle 3/Sacred Exorcist 1/Divine Oracle +1/Contemplative 2 (same as above)
Order of the Impenetrable Crucible
Contemplative Domain: whatever

Feats
1 Energy Sub: Acid (CA)
3 Maximize Spell
6 Easy Metamagic: Maximize (or Practical Metamagic if you're dragonblooded)
9 DMM: Maximize (CD)
12 Residual Magic (CM)
Get SF: Know. Religion from a Flaw or the Magical Location in CS.

Spell list
1 Burning Hands, Faerie Fire, Shocking Grasp
Magic Weapon
Shield of Faith, Silent Image

2 Cat's Grace, Produce Flame, Resist Energy
Sound Burst
Glitterdust, Silence

3 Dispel Magic (or Daylight), Keen Edge
Greater Magic Weapon
Haste

4 Lightning Bolt, Wall of Fire
Dismissal
Air Walk

5 Confusion
Death Ward
Control Winds

6 Flame Strike (I don't like the 6th level Fire spells) or Greater Dispel Magic
Banishment


So. The Fire spells are indeed more versatile than the Water ones. Faerie Fire against concealed enemies, Cat's Grace for buffing, Produce Flame to deal damage, Air Walk for scouting/getting out of dodge, Wall of Fire for BC, Confusion to debuff.
But mostly you should still use Air and Earth spells in priority.

I tried to invest in blasting - this Shugenja should be able to DMM: Max 5 spells per day or so (didn't run the exact numbers), and so get 5 more maximized spells thanks to Residual Magic. I went with Maximize instead of Empower or Twin but any of these is a good choice. The goal is to kill enemies dead in 2 rounds max, so I favor metamagics with a higher cost but better nova-ing. Pretty good, if still inferior to melee damage.

If the Water Shugenja is a subpar Cleric, this is a subpar Sorcerer (only a handful of the spells are not on their list !) IMO - so I'd still rate the WS contribution as higher, though the FS would be more fun to play.

Comments/criticisms welcome - I put that one together fast. I begin to suspect I will actually like Air or Earth Shugenjas better : you lose the other very good element but you get better spells known earlier.

[Ivory Knight]

I personally have not seen a ruling that allows Versatile + Heighten to provide you faster access to the higher level spells you'd need for the Paragnostic Apostle route.  If you or someone could provide a link, I might reconsider.

I saw it used by Caedrus for his Mystic Theurg Handbook, checked Races of the Dragon p. 101 and found:
"Prerequisite: Ability to spontaneously cast spells."

A Shugenja can take the Feat, use it to heighten a 2nd Level Spell to 3rd and thereby qualify for anything that checks for "able to cast 3rd level spells".
As long, as he gets 1 Bonus Spellslot from high Charisma he even can use it twice/day at Classlevel 4,
to satisfy a DM who read "spells" as being plural and rules that 1 3rd Level Spell/day isn't enough.

BTW, I'm curious:
What Order would make the best fit for this build?
and
Why did You use Earth, instead of Water for your example?
Banning Air IMO seems less optimal than banning Fire(by being a Water Shugenja)

[InnaBinder]

A Shugenja can take the Feat, use it to heighten a 2nd Level Spell to 3rd and thereby qualify for anything that checks for "able to cast 3rd level spells".
As long, as he gets 1 Bonus Spellslot from high Charisma he even can use it twice/day at Classlevel 4,
to satisfy a DM who read "spells" as being plural and rules that 1 3rd Level Spell/day isn't enough

I'm still missing the bit that allows a Shugenja to cast a 3rd level spell via Heighten, prior to gaining any access to 3rd level spells.  Regardless of CHA, the Shugenja spell charts list "-", rather than "0", for 3rd level spells prior to 6th.

What Order would make the best fit for this build?
and
Why did You use Earth, instead of Water for your example?

Order of Ineffable Mystery would be my first choice, closely followed by the Order of the All-Seeing Eye; I don't much care for the other Orders for an Earth Shugenja.

As I indicated earlier - and as my debate with Omen of Peace further illustrates  - I have a bias against the Water Shugenja as being too ineffectual at the predominant aspect of most campaigns I've seen (combat) while being unable to adequately help in their area of 'expertise' (healing) due to their diminutive spell selections.

[Omen of Peace]

Regarding Kuro's build: why is there Persist but no DMM: Persist ? And either way, what spells will get Persisted ?

[InnaBinder]

Regarding Kuro's build: why is there Persist but no DMM: Persist ? And either way, what spells will get Persisted ?

Which build are you calling Kuro's, out of curiosity?  The first build in that section is mine, the second build stub is Akalsaris', then you, Ivory Knight, and myself have put forward suggested builds.

The Spellscale build I put forth didn't use DMM: Persist only because I didn't use Flaws, and wanted to fit as many of the recommended feats from this guide as possible into it as an example of the template.  Had I the room to fit Improved Initiative and/or Knowledge Devotion and still take DMM: Persist, it'd be there.

The choice of which spell(s) to Persist comes down a bit to campaign/play style.  GMW, Bear's Endurance, or Spell Immunity seem the most likely candidates.  Repulsion would be quite amusing assuming your DM reads it as qualifying, if you're otherwise built for range.

[Omen of Peace]

Sorry, I was indeed referring to that one. Dunno why I thought it was Kuro's. 

- GMW doesn't qualify for Persisting, and being hours/levels should simply be Extended.
- Bear's Endurance and Spell Immunity can't be Persisted (because of Range: Touch, as per the FAQ).
- Repulsion doesn't have a fixed range so it's also out. Even if the DM lets it work, this can potentially screw teammates as well as monsters. (Imagine the Cleric coming to Revivify you rolling a natural 1 against it. ).

Given that Persist is a +6 adjustment, I wouldn't take it in your build. Produce Flame is not bad at low levels, but using an 8th level slot to Persist it is just madness.

I only find the following Persistable spells potentially interesting: Dragon Breath, Fire Shield, Produce Flame, Righteous Might. Yeah, that's it (though I could have easily missed a few) - except for spells coming from domains like Divine Power in my WS build. And of these, only RM is worth the feat investment into the DMMP chain.

[InnaBinder]

- Bear's Endurance and Spell Immunity can't be Persisted (because of Range: Touch, as per the FAQ)

Missed that ruling; thanks for the tip.

[Omen of Peace]

Why does no one comment on my builds ?

I'll go post them on the WotC boards.

[Ivory Knight]

I don't even need Versatile Spellcaster, to get my build done with Shugenja 4(the only thing, I stumbled upon was Knowledge Religion 8 ):
Shugenja 3/ Warlock 1/ Shugenja +1/ Divine Oracle 2
- can get me into Paragnostic Apostle only 1 Charakterlevel later
- potentially frees up 2 Feats(I'd take Versatile Spellcaster anyways, but leave out Heighten for 1 free Feat)

@InnaBinder:
Have you looked up the link, I provided to Caedrus post in the MT-Handbook?

You disagree with Heighten changing a 2nd Level Spell known to a 3rd Level Spell cast, allowing it to count as prerequisite for Feats/ PrC's?
It may be rules lawyering, but it is better supported by RAW than other early entry tricks(Earth Spell, Precocious Apprentice, Sanctum Spell, just to name a few).

On that Account:
As an Illumian Shugenja 4/ Warlock 1 with Improved Sigil(Krau), I could select 2 of my 2nd Level Spells to affect as if using Heighten on them.
I now can cast 2 Spells as 3rd Level Spells, despite them being 2nd Level Spell known, using 2nd Level Slots.
Would this satisfy the spellcasting prerequisite of Paragnostic Apostle?

@ Omen of Peace:
I waited for someone with more experience on Shugenja to comment
Haven't played one myself, but might try soon.

On your builds:
As you wrote yourself, I see one Melee-Cleric(Water) and one Blaster-Sorcerer(Fire).

If there was a way to up your spells known, or save/get some Feats, you could eclipse the Sorcerer.
DMM vs. Incantatrix comes out pretty even, if it wasn't for the Feats.

The Cleric is better at playing Heal & Hurt, simply because he preps for battle from an enormous list of "spells known"
and still has access to more (and better, in case of Vigor) Healing Spells than a Shugenja.

I'm curious: Why are your builds only Level 1 to Level 12 and what would you take for the remaining 8 Levels?

[Omen of Peace]

You disagree with Heighten changing a 2nd Level Spell known to a 3rd Level Spell cast, allowing it to count as prerequisite for Feats/ PrC's?
It may be rules lawyering, but it is better supported by RAW than other early entry tricks(Earth Spell, Precocious Apprentice, Sanctum Spell, just to name a few).

I don't know about InnaBinder, but I personally dislike early entry tricks. I'd rather work out things with the DM.
But they are sadly back in vogue these days so I'll go back to hiding under my rock.

@ Omen of Peace:
On your builds:
As you wrote yourself, I see one Melee-Cleric(Water) and one Blaster-Sorcerer(Fire).

If there was a way to up your spells known, or save/get some Feats, you could eclipse the Sorcerer.
DMM vs. Incantatrix comes out pretty even, if it wasn't for the Feats.

Thanks for commenting !

Yes and no. You need one DMM feat for every MM feat you take, and you can only use one DMM feat in a given round. Whereas Arcane Thesis and Incantatrix 10 reduce the cost of all your feats.
That said, I do like DMM: Empower/Maximize/Twin because it makes blasting decent and remains at a reasonable level of power. The only problem being blasting is very inefficient in the first place. But if your meleers are not too optimized you can actually beat them at their own game. That's "level 3" optimization, Practical Op, i.e. something I can recommend for use in many campaigns.

As for increasing spells known, most of the tricks are for Arcane IIRC (Sandshaper would be great ! Hmm, I guess a Shugenja can actually dip 1 level). If someone remembers anything that might help, do mention it.

The Cleric is better at playing Heal & Hurt, simply because he preps for battle from an enormous list of "spells known"
and still has access to more (and better, in case of Vigor) Healing Spells than a Shugenja.

Agreed.

I'm curious: Why are your builds only Level 1 to Level 12 and what would you take for the remaining 8 Levels?

The danger with 20-level builds is that it's hard to see how good they are at lower levels. The best way to do it is to have snapshots every 5 levels or so but I don't have the time to do that, so I went with a mid-level build and tried to point out tactics at all levels: note that while the level 12 WS rocks, it sucks at lower levels.

The second reason is that I dislike cookie-cutter builds - I've never used a build that I hadn't customized for the actual campaign, and I want to encourage people to do the same.

The remaining 8 levels are not hard: continue/take any of the PrCs that this guide recommends, to taste. Feat-wise, the WS build will want gishy/melee feats ; the Fire one... I don't know, perhaps some Extra Turnings. Both could use Extra Spell if they have room.


And... I have just noticed Shugenjas don't get any Armor proficiency. Ouch. It's good that Righteous Might grants some DR, otherwise the WS gish would go back in the trash can.
That makes Anima Mages all the better: get light armor from Binder, then Medium/Heavy armor from vestiges.

[InnaBinder]

You disagree with Heighten changing a 2nd Level Spell known to a 3rd Level Spell cast, allowing it to count as prerequisite for Feats/ PrC's?

I've never allowed - or seen it allowed - that you can Heighten a spell beyond your normal spell level limit without additional metamagic or racial ability shenanigans.  I've never had a player ask for it before, to be clear.  I've only seen Heighten used in order to cast, for example, Sound Burst as a 4th level spell by an 8th level Shugenja in order to overcome SR *muttersaboutDrowhappyDMs*.  That's why I asked about a FAQ or other rules clarification where this tactic is explicitly allowed.

Why does no one comment on my builds?

I think both builds are quite strong examples of type at 12th level, OoP.  They're both very well done and linked into the Builds section, with my thanks for the contributions.  I also think comparing the Fire Shugenja to a Sorcerer - or a Water Shugenja to a Cleric - is a bit of a disservice to either Shugenja.  The Fire Shugenja is, to my mind, most analogous to a Warmage, slightly less blasty with a touch more versatility dependent upon Order chosen, while the Water Shugenja is a vigor-less Healer who can access more battle-worthy options with the right Order.  Sorcerer and Cleric are simply more powerful options than a Shugenja without copious amounts of cheddar - which can also be applied to the Sorcerer or Cleric.

[Omen of Peace]

I also think comparing the Fire Shugenja to a Sorcerer - or a Water Shugenja to a Cleric - is a bit of a disservice to either Shugenja.  The Fire Shugenja is, to my mind, most analogous to a Warmage, slightly less blasty with a touch more versatility dependent upon Order chosen, while the Water Shugenja is a vigor-less Healer who can access more battle-worthy options with the right Order.  Sorcerer and Cleric are simply more powerful options than a Shugenja without copious amounts of cheddar - which can also be applied to the Sorcerer or Cleric.

Fair enough AND well said.
I hope you don't mind my ranting too much. Casters with limited spell lists make me cranky ; so the fact that the Shugenjas actually have added restrictions... 

[Ivory Knight]

@ InnaBinder:
I've allowed early entry tricks and other cheese as a DM before, always told the players I'd happily use them on my NPC's too
But it's your Handbook, so here's my cheesefree build:

The Eldritch Elementarist

Race will only matter if your DM enforces XP-Penalty for multiclassing, be a Human or Illumian to ignore this roadbump.

Shugenja 3/ Warlock 1/ Shugenja +1/ Divine Oracle 2/ Paragnostic Apostle 2/ Sacred Exorcist 1/ Eldritch Disciple 10

Needs to:
Focus in any Element other than Air
be any good alignment
worship a chaotic deity

1 Feat -> Skillfocus: Knowledge(Religion) at ECL 1 or 3

invest some Skillpoints:
5 ranks: Knowledge(Arcana) before/at ECL 7
8 ranks: Knowledge(Religion) before/at ECL 5
10 ranks: Knowledge(the Planes) before/at ECL 9, 5 of them before/at ECL 7

choose at least 2 Divinations of any Level as Spells known before ECL 5
take Dismissal as a 4th Level Spell known at ECL 9

Gets:
Divine Spells as Shugenja 18, can learn spells from the Oracle Domain
Invocations(including Eldritch Blast) as Warlock 11
Turn Undead as Cleric 3
Lore aka Bardic Knowledge as Bard 4
2 "Knowledge is Power"
4 "Gifts of the Divine Patron", can choose any that don't require worship of a nongood or evil deity
Prescient sense(aka Evasion in any armor)
Light Armor Proficiency

I won't suggest Feats or Spells known, as those tend to vary between the 3 Elements from which you can choose.
Your tactics also depend largely on your selection of Feats, Invocations and Spells:
Earth: You can use Invocations to make up for the loss of mobility from banning Air. If you go for Melee, select Wild Frenzy.
Fire: You can use your EB for blasting, focus on Battlefield Control and Utility Spells. As you banned Water, Healing Blast might be good.
Water: I don't know what role you play in combat, just avoid choosing redundant spells/Invocations. Your main Offensive is your Eldritch Blast,
          choose either Protective Aura to keep you save while blasting, or scare your enemies with Fearful Glare & Frightful Blast.



Afterthought:
Reserve Feats could be a good choice for some Shugenjabuilds(not mine, as Invocations are also usable at will).
Will look into that, first results:

Air:
Can try BFC with Hurricane Breath or
Aid PC-Archers/Hinder Ranged Attackers with Windguided Arrows respectively.

Earth:
Could fuel Touch of Distraction with Antipathy, but there has to be something better.
Magic Disruption also isn't worth taking Imprisonment

Fire:
Looks promising 9d6 Fiery Burst even rivals Warlock in damage + there is a good fire spell on each Level to take.
To bad it's the most likely resisted damagetype in the game....

Water:
Winter's Blast caps at 7d4, fueled by Greater Creeping Cold and there aren't many cold spells below 7th either.
Drowning Glance might be worth a second look.

All Shugenja can qualify for Summon Elemental with SNA V-IX, which are actually not bad to have as Spells known(if only 1 or 2 of them).

Perhaps Domainspells are a way to get more mileage out of Reservefeats?