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InnaBinder

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Shugenja Handbook
« on: May 07, 2009, 01:49:06 AM »
Shugenja Handbook




Note:  This is under construction.  Please contribute any links, builds, strategies, equipment, or thoughts you find useful for a shugenja.  Thanks in advance to jameswilliamogle, Kuroimaken, AfterCrescent, and j0lt for their help with this project.

"Satori to Tenkai wa imi no nai mono soshite baka na mono ga iku.  Seisho wa kami kirei de omae no kao no doro wo nuguu mono da.  Shitai wa ohaka no naka no obake.  Kore ga doushite omae ga jiyu ni naru michi nanoka?"  

Enlightenment" and "Nirvana"? They are dead trees to fasten a donkey to. The scriptures? They are bits of paper to wipe the mud from your face. The four merits and ten steps? They are ghosts in their graves. What can these things have to do with you becoming free?
Shugenja Class Features:

Pro:SpellsElemental and Order FocusSpontaneous CasterSingle Attribute DependencySkillsSense Elements Proficiency with Short SwordCon:Restricted Spell ListNo Armor Proficiencyd6 Hit DiceextraLack of Supplemental Support
« Last Edit: September 23, 2009, 10:35:27 AM by InnaBinder »
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Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2009, 01:49:23 AM »
Attributes:

COLOR KEY: Terrible, Bad, Average, Good, YEAH BABY!StrengthDexterityConstitutionIntelligenceWisdomCharisma
« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 06:05:54 PM by InnaBinder »
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Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2009, 01:49:37 AM »
RacesHumanHalf-ElfGnome: (PH) A CON bonus and a penalty to an unimportant stat combine with the perks of Small size to make this a decent option.  Air Shugenja can consider the Forest Gnome variant a blue racial choice.  Chaos GnomesHalfling: (PH) As with Gnomes, Halflings get a bonus to a secondary stat (DEX) and an unimportant STR penalty along with Small size (and a bonus to thrown weapons), for a decent if unspectacular choice.   If available, Strongheart Halflings are a strong blueElfStar ElfDwarfHalf-OrcIllumianSpellscale: (RoDr) Even with the CON penalty, these make a good choice, with a CHA bonus and blood-quickening meditations for versatility.  Mix with Dragonborn of Bahamut for tealKobold
« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 10:56:18 AM by InnaBinder »
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Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2009, 01:49:52 AM »
Elements:

The choice of elemental focus  - whether  Fire, Water, Air, or Earth - is key to how your shugenja plays and the role(s) you fill in the party.  The shugenja can mimic the role of warmage (Fire), healer (Water), beguiler (Air), or dragon shaman (Earth) to a limited extent.  

I quote here from the gospel of Kuroimaken:

Having played extensively with Shugenja (at least until 3.5 came out; but to be frank, they haven't changed any from 3.0 anyway), here are my ideas. One thing of significant note is that your order's element does NOT have to match your chosen element, and some of the order spells are not normally available to Shugenja to choose, so order selection plays a big part. You still cannot select spells from an element opposed to your own, however. Also, though your element dictates half the spells you know, some elements have quite worthy spells on their lists. I will consider each Shugenja based on their favored element.

"Honoo wa ikiteiru... Kokyu oshi , tabe, soshite kirau."  [Fire is] a living thing... It breathes, it eats, and it hates. - Robert DeNiro, Backdraft

Fire Shugenja: This guy is a blaster, pure and simple. Over 80% of his spell list is intended to deal damage, either over an area or individually. No access to save-or-dies (except for Implosion), has a few double threats and save-or-suck spells, and very few boosts. Not good with battlefield control because pretty much none of his spells last long -- but if it's about dealing damage, this is your guy.  

         .      .      .

"Shikou wo karanisuru, katachi ga naku nari, mizu no youni ni naru."  Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless--like water. - Bruce Lee

Water Shugenja: By contrast, the Water Shugenja is a healer. He has access to pretty much every healing spell in the PHB (including True Ressurrection). The downside being, of course, that their offensive power is incredibly limited. No boosts, but they get access to some good early level battlefield control effects such as Obscuring Mist. On mid to late levels, they can gain access to some offensive effects, and they have the odd divination spell thrown in here and there. Weirdest noteworthy point: they gain access to Righteous Might for some bizarre reason, but no other boosts besides.

         .      .      .

"Sore wa kuuki to sora to tobukoto no naka no ai, bouken no miriyoku, bi no kansha."  It was a love of the air and sky and flying, the lure of adventure, the appreciation of beauty. - Charles Lindbergh

Air Shugenja: The biggest problem Illusionist fans will have with this guy is that he has no access to Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjuration. This can be detractive to his role as an Illusionist, as he has to rely on spells from other elements to have any effect on the battlefield when his opponents are immune to illusions. No shadow spells of any kind. Also has access to a few defensive buffs, a couple of early-level debuffs (such as Color Spray), and lots of transportation spells, mainly Teleport. No Dimension Door. He also has a few divinations thrown in, but nothing to go crazy about.

.      .      .



Earth Shugenja: These guys are... odd. Earth Shugenja focus mostly on buffs and protection (and the occasional save or suck), right up to the point where they gain 6th-level spells. Then they start throwing crap into the fan and getting offensive with stuff like Disintegrate, Flesh to Stone and Earthquake. Overall, their buffs are nothing to sneeze at, particularly at low levels, when that Magic Weapon spell can really save your sorry rear. Despite this, they're actually pretty decent, considering what they give up in exchange, and though they lack more defensive options at later levels, they make for decent support characters. No War Weavers or Bards by any means -- but not Healers, either.

Element picking is entirely dependent on what your role is going to be, but there's a catch: each element has at least one spell you cannot do without under any circumstances - except for water. Given that healing is considered a waste of an action by most CO/minmaxers (and water doesn't have the vigor line), this leaves the majority of its spells out. What's left are oddball divinations and early game battlefield control. Therefore, unless you're looking at a secondary role as a healbot, it's actually fairly safe to pick fire nearly every time. Picking Earth forfeits Teleport and picking Wind forfeits Disintegrate - and picking Water forfeits nearly every blasty spell left, which means you can do NOTHING but support for nearly the whole time before level 13.

The Fifth Element:  No, not that one
« Last Edit: September 23, 2009, 10:38:39 AM by InnaBinder »
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Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2009, 01:50:09 AM »
Order:
Order of the All-Seeing Eye
:  Very useful out of combat if your party lacks a diviner, but completely without offensive boosters to help in combat.  The divination spell focus here is also notoriously DM-specific in its utility. 
Fire: ***(Now you have something to do besides blow stuff up); WaterAir: ***(Settling into the roles of illusionist and scout); EarthOrder of the Spring ZephyrFireWater: **(Make yourself useful while waiting to heal people. Yawn); AirEarth: *(No fourth level spell for you!).

Order of the Impenetrable Crucible:  A solid combination of buffs, plus a direct damage spell with a decent secondary effect.
Fire: *** (Things to cast on your party without making them scream at you); WaterAir: **** (Not every effect you cast is illusory); Earth: *(Department of redundancy department, may I help, aid, or assist you?).

Order of the Perfect Sculpture
:  If your DM has you spelunking or investigating underground catacombs, there will be utility here; count on it.  Please note the first word of that previous sentence.
FireWaterAir: 0 stars (Seven spells on your banned list, out of ten.  Enough said); EarthOrder of the Consuming Flame:  For all your pyromaniac needs.
Fire: * (You already cast these spells); Water: 0 stars (ALL of the spells are banned.  I need a smaller number of stars than zero); Airoh, god, the pain!Earth: ** (You have better ways of hurting your foes).

Order of the Forbidding WastelandFire: ****(This gets the most versatility for your wannabe warmage); WaterAir: ** (Some duplication to go with some awesome); Earth: * (Spells from your banned list are less than helpful to you).

Order of the Gentle RainFireOrder of the Ineffable Mystery:  The mysterious fifth element is Void
« Last Edit: May 24, 2009, 09:14:04 PM by InnaBinder »
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Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2009, 01:50:35 AM »
Feats:

Combat Casting: As useful as ever.  Skill Focus (Concentration) is arguably a better investment for versatility, but more Prestige Classes require Combat Casting than a Skill Focus.

Improved Initiative: Always a worthwhile choice.

Empower Spell: Sorcerers love metamagic.  You're a divine Sorcerer.  Need I make this clearer?  Best for Fire Shugenja, least useful for Air Shugenja.

Enlarge Spell: Fire and Earth Shugenja will use this often.  Water Shugenja will find few reasons to take it.

Extend Spell: Air and Earth Shugenja get the most mileage out of this one.  Water Shugenja, not so much.

Heighten Spell: Fire Shugenja could see utility from this one; none of the other Elements care enough about saving throw DCs to make this an obvious choice.

Maximize Spell: Empower Spell is better.

Energy Substitution: Fire Shugenja could find good uses for this to overcome immunities.  They're the only blasters, so the only ones who should consider it.

Chain Spell: Myriad uses for this one with a creative spellcaster.  Prerequisites keep it from being blue.

Persistent Spell: Earth Shugenja might consider this one essential.  Fire and Water Shugenja find it harder to utilize as effectively.

Knowledge Devotion: All Knowledge skills are class skills.    If you're filling a blaster or melee support role, you'll find yourself benefiting immensely from this.  It has amazing synergy with Paragnostic Apostle.

Reach Spell: Earth and Water Shugenja find the most options opened up from this choice.

Practiced Spellcaster:If you dipped out of Shugenja or have a partial-caster PrC, you need this feat.

To Avoid:

Armor Proficiency (any): "No ASF" cannot be overemphasized, and your weapons list is not what melee monkeys are made of.  If you're taking the Earth Shugenja toward a a melee support prestige class, you might possibly find yourself needing this.  If so, look at PrC options that grant it instead of burning one or more feats.

Martial Weapon Proficiency (any): Repeat after me: Shugenja is not a BSF class, Shugenja is not a BSF class.... You're already proficient in one martial weapon.  That's plenty for the roles you'll fill in almost every circumstance.

Sudden Metamagic: Another TRAP, here.  Use per day limitations exacerbate the problem of the Five Minute Work Day.  Use metamagic rods instead.


« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 09:09:42 PM by InnaBinder »
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Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2009, 01:50:54 AM »
Prestige Classes:

Sacred Exorcist:Divine Oracle:Contemplative:  Any domain your deity offers, and no restrictions that limit which Element or Order you follow for qualifying.  Amazingly good.

Seeker of the Misty Isle:  Requires a feat expenditure and is racially limited.  That said, TRAVEL Domain.  Take no more than 4 levels, preferably after a Sacred Exorcist dip.

Stormlord:Void Disciple:Paragnostic Apostle:Anima Mage: You're thinking 'Hey, if Turn Undead is that amazing for a Shugenja, why isn't the Binder dip to get Turn Undead all day long even MOAR amazing?'  Well, the text for Tenebrious - the Turn Undead vestige - says 'as a Cleric' and then goes on to say 'after you use this ability, you cannot do so again for 5 rounds.'  The number of DMs who would read the latter as 'You get unlimited Turn Undead per day; rock and roll!' is probably calculable on the fingers of one kneecap.  A more generally accepted reading is that the 'cannot do so again for 5 rounds' is an additional limitation on Tenebrious' granted ability.  That makes the loss of caster levels too bitter a pill for most to swallow.  If you managed to get your DM inebriated enough to allow you NI Turn attempts, go nuts.

Other PrCs of interest for Shugenjas, from Omen of Peace:
- Singer of Concordance (RotD): to qualify, the only real constraint is that you must be dragonblooded and worship Io. You gain a good Ref save, a domain at level 2 and some useless-to-nice abilities.
Fluff-wise, it suits Earth and Water Shugenjas better IMO.

- Earth Dreamer (RoS): easy to qualify for (1 feat), this PrC grants really cool abilities. Very flavorful for an Earth Shugenja as well.  (IB's note: on the fence about a BLUE vs. TEAL rating for this one.  No Domain access and fairly campaign-specific abilities, along with a reduction in HD.  Thoughts?)

- Shadowcraft Mage (RoS) is actually accessible: in Eberron, the Shadow domain has the whole Shadow Conj/Evoc line. Get it with Contemplative and have fun. Suits Air Shugenjas well (if they then proceed to take Earth Sense/Spell to optimize, it's their problem !). Build: Shugenja 10/Contemplative 1/ScM 5/X 4 - late blooming but... you're an ScM ! (IB's note: if X 4 = another BLUE PrC, the overall level of awesome for the build is TEAL IMHO.)

- it's possible to qualify (late via Contemplative) for Holt Warden(CC) but I'd recommend against it.

- Mythic Exemplar(CC) is easy to qualify for but loses 1 or 2 CL.

- Rimefire Witch (Frostburn) requires 2 feats. It gives decent abilities that should suit a WS well (one is a cold Eldritch Blast-alike).

- In the same book, the Winterhaunt is underwhelming.

- Stormcaster (Stormwrack) can only be taken by Air and Fire Shugenjas. It loses a CL but is pretty cool otherwise.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 08:13:36 PM by InnaBinder »
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Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2009, 01:51:11 AM »
Builds:

Spellscale Fire Shugenja 6/Divine Oracle 2/Sacred Exorcist 2/Contemplative 6/Paragnostic Apostle 4
Order of the Impenetrable Crucible
[spoiler]
1) SF: K(Religion)
3) Empower Spell
6) Enlarge Spell
9) Extra Turning
11) Extend Spell (free with Planning Domain)
12) Persistent Spell
15) Knowledge Devotion
18) Improved Initiative[/spoiler]
Trap Sense, Detect Evil at will, 12 Turn attempts, Divine Health, self healing, Poison immunity, Prescient Sense (Evasion +1), faux Bardic Knowledge, and three Domains from which you can diversify your spell list.  Aside from the required Oracle Domain and listed Planning Domain, I like the Mind Domain for Diplomacy and Divine Oracle synergy.  Additional note: Spellscale Meditation to Tamara allows him to use cure spell completion items at no penalty.

Akalsaris' Death Debuffer
[spoiler]Dragonwrought Kobold Cloistered Cleric 1/Shugenja 2/Master of Shrouds 2
Element: Air
Order:Spring Zephyr ?
Domains: Dragon Below, Undeath[/spoiler]

Omen of Peace's Offense-Minded Healbot
[spoiler]Shugenja 5/Divine Oracle 3/Sacred Exorcist 1/Divine Oracle +1/Contemplative 2
Order of the Impenetrable Crucible
Contemplative Domain: War

I honestly prefer the Order of the Spring Zephyr, but I was forced to take the Order of the Impenetrable Crucible to 1) qualify earlier for SE 2) be able to take Divine Power as a spell known earlier (otherwise Dismissal blocks the "any school" 4th level slot for a while).

Feats
1 Law Devotion (CD) (retrained from Augment Healing (CD) at level 9 or so)
3 Animal Devotion (CC) - for versatility ; you have to wait level 9 to use it more than once per day *shakes head sadly*
6 Extend Spell
9 Persistent Spell (CA)
12 DMM: Persist (CD)
Get SF: Know. Religion from a Flaw or the Magical Location in CS ; or drop Law Devotion.

Spell list
1 Cure Light Wounds, Obscuring Mist, Speak with Animals
Magic Weapon
Shield of Faith, Silent Image

2 Fog Cloud, Lesser Restoration, Resist Energy
Sound Burst
Glitterdust, Silence

3 Cure Serious Wounds, Dispel Magic
Greater Magic Weapon
Haste

4 Cure Critical Wounds, Restoration
Dismissal
Divine Power

5 Righteous Might
Death Ward
Control Winds

6 Heal
Banishment

Strategy
Persist Divine Power and Righteous Might - use 1 Nightstick. Congrats ! You're now a subpar Cleric.  Rolls Eyes
You do have a few cool tricks up your sleeves: Control Winds to clean up the battlefield, Haste and GMW to buff everyone, Glitterdust to debuff, Silence and Dispel Magic for utility (sneaking, traps) and bothering casters. Silent Image for great versatility. And healing up the wazoo.

Level-by-level:
1-3: spam Sleep.
4-5: retrain Sleep. Spam Glitterdust - you'll get a Rod of Sculpting (MIC) later.
6: spam Glitterdust, and Dispel as needed.
7-9: Haste at the beginning of each fight. Then as above.
10: you can try Righteous Might, but you'll suck in melee. Wait a bit by spamming <see above>.
11: Control Winds - learn to love it. It will get better as your CL increases.
12: hallelujah !  Cloud 9

Comments
- You will only use some of your known spells once every month. It bothers me even though I predicted it.

- While this looks ok at level 12, you kinda sucked on the way there: Persist is a dead feat before DMM, Extend you probably only used on GMW. I recommend liberal use of retraining (get Craft Magic Arms and Armors and retrain it later, etc...).[/spoiler]

Ivory Knight's Eldritch Elementarist
[spoiler]Race will only matter if your DM enforces XP-Penalty for multiclassing, be a Human or Illumian to ignore this roadbump.

Shugenja 3/ Warlock 1/ Shugenja +1/ Divine Oracle 2/ Paragnostic Apostle 2/ Sacred Exorcist 1/ Eldritch Disciple 10

Needs to:
Focus in any Element other than Air
be any good alignment
worship a chaotic deity

1 Feat -> Skillfocus: Knowledge(Religion) at ECL 1 or 3

invest some Skillpoints:
5 ranks: Knowledge(Arcana) before/at ECL 7
8 ranks: Knowledge(Religion) before/at ECL 5
10 ranks: Knowledge(the Planes) before/at ECL 9, 5 of them before/at ECL 7

choose at least 2 Divinations of any Level as Spells known before ECL 5
take Dismissal as a 4th Level Spell known at ECL 9

Gets:
Divine Spells as Shugenja 18, can learn spells from the Oracle Domain
Invocations(including Eldritch Blast) as Warlock 11
Turn Undead as Cleric 3
Lore aka Bardic Knowledge as Bard 4
2 "Knowledge is Power"
4 "Gifts of the Divine Patron", can choose any that don't require worship of a nongood or evil deity
Prescient sense(aka Evasion in any armor)
Light Armor Proficiency

I won't suggest Feats or Spells known, as those tend to vary between the 3 Elements from which you can choose.
Your tactics also depend largely on your selection of Feats, Invocations and Spells:
Earth: You can use Invocations to make up for the loss of mobility from banning Air. If you go for Melee, select Wild Frenzy.
Fire: You can use your EB for blasting, focus on Battlefield Control and Utility Spells. As you banned Water, Healing Blast might be good.
Water: I don't know what role you play in combat, just avoid choosing redundant spells/Invocations. Your main Offensive is your Eldritch Blast,
          choose either Protective Aura to keep you save while blasting, or scare your enemies with Fearful Glare & Frightful Blast.



Afterthought:
Reserve Feats could be a good choice for some Shugenjabuilds(not mine, as Invocations are also usable at will).
Will look into that, first results:

Air:
Can try BFC with Hurricane Breath or
Aid PC-Archers/Hinder Ranged Attackers with Windguided Arrows respectively.

Earth:
Could fuel Touch of Distraction with Antipathy, but there has to be something better.
Magic Disruption also isn't worth taking Imprisonment Bang Head

Fire:
Looks promising 9d6 Fiery Burst even rivals Warlock in damage + there is a good fire spell on each Level to take.
To bad it's the most likely resisted damagetype in the game....

Water:
Winter's Blast caps at 7d4, fueled by Greater Creeping Cold and there aren't many cold spells below 7th either.
Drowning Glance might be worth a second look.

All Shugenja can qualify for Summon Elemental with SNA V-IX, which are actually not bad to have as Spells known(if only 1 or 2 of them).

Perhaps Domainspells are a way to get more mileage out of Reservefeats?[/spoiler]

Omen of Peace's Air Faux-Beguiler
[spoiler]Air Shugenja 5/Divine Oracle 5/Contemplative 2
Order of the Forbidding Wasteland for Phantom Stag & Control Weather
or Order of the All-Seeing Eye for Divination & Find the Path
or Order of the Spring Zephyr for Disguise Self, Invisibility, Air Walk, Greater Invisibility
Contemplative Domain: whatever

Feats
1 SF: Illusion
3 Spontaneous Healer (CD)
6 Transdimensional Spell (CA)
9 Invisible Spell (City)
12 Extra Spell: Dimension Door ?
Get SF: Know. Religion from a Flaw or the Magical Location in CS.

Spell list
Order spells not included since I'm offering a choice.)
1 Disguise Self, Expeditious Retreat or Feather Fall, Silent Image
Cure Light Wounds, Faerie Fire or Speak with Animals

2 Detect Thoughts or Resist Energy, Silence, Color Spray
Produce Flame, Fog Cloud or Lesser Restoration

3 Haste, Major Image
Keen Edge

4 Air Walk, Hallucinatory Terrain
Wall of Fire or Restoration

5 Control Winds or Greater Invisibility or Dimension Door
Confusion

6 Cloudkill or Greater Dispel Magic or Teleport

Comments
- I'm taking a different tack here, trying to focus on the cool spells Air Shugenjas get rather than on external abilities. You could even drop the PrCs (you don't always get to meet an envoy from your divinity, after all).
The Air list is much stronger: this is a build I could almost play from level 1 to 12, unlike the others. You're missing out on Glitterdust but otherwise you're pretty ok. The feats are pretty free as well - you could go for Touch of Healing or for more metamagic...
It plays like an Illusionist Sorcerer with some control/debuff, some healing/buffing and some utility.  (IB's note: Hence the 'beguiler' descriptor above)

- (Forest) Gnome is a good race here.[/spoiler]
« Last Edit: May 13, 2009, 10:45:58 PM by InnaBinder »
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Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2009, 01:51:34 AM »
On Multiclassing and Domains:Shugenja is a fairly flexible class, given that the various Elemental and Order foci allow for the emulation of various other classes.  That said, the only benefit to advancing Shugenja beyond 1st level is spellcasting; for many optimizers, that's a clear indicator to get out of Shugenja as quickly as possible, into another base class or PrC.  If you choose this route, here are some thoughts on the various benefits:

Barbarian:Get some extra HP, weapon and armor proficiencies, and the ability to froth at the mouth instead of casting spells.  This sounds like a recipe for trouble.  A minority of Earth Shugenja with good physical stats, and who are emulating a gish build, might find utility here in a one or two level dip.
Bard:With no change in primary stat focus, gain additional skill points and a whole lot more skills, along with the bardic music goodies. Two levels here add much to your versatility, including a gateway to that juicy Sublime Chord progression.
Cleric:A single level dip into Cleric nets you that coveted Turn Undead ability for DMM fun, as well as access to a couple of Domains.  However, it won't let you progress Domain casting as a PrC would, and requires that you spent on what is otherwise your dump stat.  Fire Shugenja might consider it for the access to healing.
Druid:The Animal Companion will be stuck at low levels of effectiveness, and you'll have to allocate WIS for the spells.  You'll also probably be getting out before you can Wild Shape. Fire Shugenja might consider it for the access to healing.
Fighter: A single level dip - maybe two, no more - gets you considerable benefits if your Shugenja regularly finds himself in the thick of the battle.  Those bonus Feats can help Earth Shugenja especially, as the ones most likely using attack oriented spells.
Monk: Emphasis on your dump stat and physical confrontations, for which you are otherwise ill-equipped, in order to do less damage than a well-conceived 1st level spell.  Pass.
Paladin: Assuming you can live with the PITA code/alignment issues, this is arguably the best choice for a martial Shugenja.  Two levels here will do you and your party a world of good.
Ranger: A small HP increase, some off-focus skills, and a combat style you're probably minimally equipped to use make this among the less attractive martial options for a Shugenja unless you're facing hordes of a specific enemy.  It's better if you have access to the variant Ranger fighting styles from Dragon magazine.
Rogue: A wide variety of social skills - along with UMD - with plenty of skill points, Evasion, and a small, reasonable boost to your combat prowess make a two-level dip into Rogue a very tempting idea.
Sorcerer: Single attribute focus: check.  Spells: check.  Lots more versatility: check.  If you go this route, you're aiming for a Theurge PrC of some sort.
Wizard: For a CHA-focused build, Sorcerer is just a more sound option.  If Scribe Scroll is this important to you, buy the Feat.

Domains:Since I've sung the praises of Domain access throughout this handbook, naturally, the following retort came up:
Quote from: Omen of Peace
Then what domains would you recommend ? (Don't tell me you didn't see that coming.  ;))
Well, alrighty then.
[spoiler]Air - Very cheesy way for an Earth Shugenja potentially to gain some otherwise banned spells for more battlefield control, and a turn undead clone ability.
Animal - Extremely minimal gain here.
Death - Domain ability is likely underwhelming for your Shugenja, but a Water Shugenja becomes much more combat-viable with this one.  Some redundancy with Fire.
Destruction - Possibly even better for a Water Shugenja than the Death Domain, this gives you a better attack option and lets you do your healbot shtick with a necropolitan party member.
Earth - See commentary on Air Domain, and apply it to Air Shugenja instead.
Fire - See commentary on Air Domain, and apply it to Water instead.
Good - +1 caster level on a small subset of your spells, and some decent buffage along with a couple of quite nice higher level spells.  Earth Shugenja will find similarities.
Healing - See previous commentary on the 'benefits' of being a healbot.  Could be useful to a non-Spellscale Fire Shugenja.
Knowledge - If you're the only diviner-type in the party, it COULD be useful, maybe.  Probably not.
Law - Quite a limited sample of spells to boost with the Domain ability.  Calm Emotions and Hold Monster are nice, though.
Luck - Rerolls are handy.  The spell list is likely duplicated at least in part by extant spells on your lists, though.
Magic - Very nice Domain ability.  Spell list pretty closely mirrors the Ineffable Mysteries.
Plant - Quite a few useful battlefield control spells here to go with your faux turn undead.
Protection - Useful for spell access throughout, especially for Air Shugenja.  The Domain ability will potentially go unused.
Strength - Greatly expands an Air Shugenja's options for party buffing, and adds an otherwise forbidden buff for Fire Shugenja.  Somewhat off-flavor for a Shugenja's standard archetype.
Sun - Spell overlap with Fire domain with slightly less cheesiness for a Water Shugenja.  The Domain ability is useless without Sacred Exorcist or similar.
Travel - Freedom of movement ability and a potentially handy new class skill - if your DM isn't overly literal - make this attractive.  Spell list is largely duplicated by the Air Shugenja list, with D. Door as a nice perk.
Trickery - A CHA-monkey like the Shugenja should enjoy the new class skills.  Earth Shugenja benefit most from the spell additions before 8th level.
War - Earth Shugenja will gain virtually nothing here unless they want the MWP/F.  Air Shugenja worshipping a martial god will likely benefit most.
Water - See commentary on Air Domain, and apply it to Fire instead. [/spoiler]
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 10:37:39 AM by InnaBinder »
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Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2009, 01:52:15 AM »
 :clap Interesting. I'll pay attention to this. :D
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Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2009, 05:43:10 PM »
Glad to see this class get a handbook :)  I'm working on a Healer handbook at the moment, that should leave all of the crappy divine classes represented in handbooks.

Here's a shugenja build I used in a short-lived game:

Dragonwrought Kobold Cloistered Cleric 1/Shugenja 2/Master of Shrouds 2
Element: Air
Order: I forgot, maybe it was Spring Zephyr
Domains: Dragon Below, Undeath

Idea: Basically a SAD character that uses charisma to fuel spells/day, spell DCs, summoning attempts for shadows, and divine metamagic. 

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Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2009, 08:35:21 PM »
Would a void disciple with no caster level loss be too strong?

InnaBinder

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Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2009, 08:57:09 PM »
Would a void disciple with no caster level loss be too strong?
Based on other - admittedly limited - sources for Prestige Classes of more than ten levels, I don't believe it would.  At least, I don't believe it would be too powerful for a Shugenja-based caster.  The Void Disciple has some recon abilities for out of combat, resource-free utility, but even as a full caster class it pales in my view versus a Moonspeaker (Races of Eberron) in flexibility and power, one of the only other PrCs of more than 10 levels for single-class characters.  Note that the Moonspeaker loses no caster levels AND gets an additional goodie each level, besides.

Akalsaris, thanks for the build stub.  It's been included in the Builds section.
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Omen of Peace

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Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2009, 12:50:03 AM »
Element picking is entirely dependent on what your role is going to be, but there's a catch: each element has at least one spell you cannot do without under any circumstances - except for water. Given that healing is considered a waste of an action by most CO/minmaxers (and water doesn't have the vigor line), this leaves the majority of its spells out.
The problem with mantras is that they lose nuance when they get repeated too often. In-combat healing is indeed considered a waste - but the reference point is the cleric would can go into melee and squash enemies. Healing can be optimized too, to some extent. And healing and Restoration effects are a must-have. And at higher levels Heal and Mass Heal (which they get as a level 8 spell) rock.

Quote
What's left are oddball divinations and early game battlefield control. Therefore, unless you're looking at a secondary role as a healbot, it's actually fairly safe to pick fire nearly every time. Picking Earth forfeitsTeleport and picking Wind forfeits Disintegrate - and picking Water forfeits nearly every blasty spell left, which means you can do NOTHING but support for nearly the whole time before level 13.
 
What else is a waste of an action ? Blasting. :P Shugenjas will never get access to the pieces that make Blasting ok for Sorcerers (Arcane Thesis, Incantatrix). Metamagic Rods, Residual Magic and metamagic reducers (Easy/Practical Metamagic) is as far as they'll go. And remember this mantra: Haste (Air) is more damaging than most blasting spells.
The order of the schools, IMO, is: Air > Earth >> Water > Fire.
So as long as you keep Air and Earth you're well off: I can agree with you to that extent. But I'd actually recommend Water Shugenja as being the standard. Now if people find it boring that's a different issue...

Disclaimer: I've never played a Shugenja, but IIRC when I've built some I always ended up turning to Water (I tried Air but losing the Earth spells hurt). It's been a while so I'll have to try again since I could be misremembering and giving bad advice. ;)
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Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2009, 01:41:04 AM »
Thanks for chiming in, Omen of Peace.  I'm glad there's more than one opinion here; shugenja would be deadly dull if there were only one way to make them.

Quote
In-combat healing is indeed considered a waste - but the reference point is the cleric would can go into melee and squash enemies. Healing can be optimized too, to some extent. And healing and Restoration effects are a must-have. And at higher levels Heal and Mass Heal (which they get as a level 8 spell) rock.
  For the counterpoint, Earth Shugenja make pretty decent support melee types, considering their low HP totals.  While healing can be optimized, it's damned hard, especially - as noted - without vigor and its lesser cousin.  The issue is further complicated by a Shugenja's limited number of available spells.  While a Cleric in a standard campaign can prepare ZERO healing spells and still provide on-demand healing, Shugenja do not have that luxury. They must choose Element and Order with care or else you have a Shugenja who almost has to fill two of his slots with the same spell, which is not good planning for a spontaneous caster, while being unable to affect combat in a game that is, generally speaking, designed for combat.  The first Shugenja I DMed took Water with Order of the Gentle Rain; his contributions were almost entirely limited to healing someone or pegging the enemy for negligible damage with a weapon, as none of his spells were negatively able to affect the enemy in combat.  Cure spells are easily obtained via items, and more than one person in a typical D&D party would be able to use those items, even if the Shugenja cannot do so personally.  So, yes, healing and restoration are things to which your party must have access.  That's not the same thing as the Shugenja must be the ones to cast them.

Quote
What else is a waste of an action ? Blasting. Shugenjas will never get access to the pieces that make Blasting ok for Sorcerers (Arcane Thesis, Incantatrix). Metamagic Rods, Residual Magic and metamagic reducers (Easy/Practical Metamagic) is as far as they'll go. And remember this mantra: Haste (Air) is more damaging than most blasting spells.
The fact that the Shugenja don't blast as well as an Arcane Thesis Sorcatrix doesn't mean they don't blast well enough to do it effectively on their own merits; that argument is a bit like 'Warblades are terrible melee types because a tricked out Druid/Warshaper/MoMF does melee better.'  The emphasis on taking the Fire Element is about options, leaving yourself the most versatility in spell selection.  The ability to handle multiple situations well trumps the ability to handle a specific situation very well.

Yes, Haste is more damaging than most blasting spells.  Take Fire as your Element, and you still have access to Haste.  You also have access to the various blasting spells. which you can metamagic enough to matter, even if you can't take them to the level of 'don't point that at my planet.'  Take Water, and the latter isn't true anymore.  Take Water with an Order dedicated to Water, and all you do is heal, and you do that less well than almost any other class the designers  intended for healing.

Quote
The order of the schools, IMO, is: Air > Earth >> Water > Fire.
So as long as you keep Air and Earth you're well off: I can agree with you to that extent. But I'd actually recommend Water Shugenja as being the standard. Now if people find it boring that's a different issue...
As I started working on this project, my mental ordering of the Elements was Earth>Air>Fire>Water, so I understand where you're coming from.  But the more I looked at interactions, the more I talked to other people who'd played them and received feedback, and the more I set about classifying what was good or bad about various Element/Order combinations, the more I came to see what Koroimaken is talking about.  The Element that least hamstrings your overall effectiveness, generally speaking, is Fire, because it lets you pick and choose from the best available options at the cost of needing wands and potions the party will want to invest in regardless.  With a spontaneous caster and the nature of HP and healing in 3.X, filling your spell slots with healing magic hampers your combat effectiveness too much for Water to come highly recommended, especially given what you lose for the choice.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2009, 01:42:37 AM by InnaBinder »
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Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2009, 11:24:51 AM »
Quote
The fact that the Shugenja don't blast as well as an Arcane Thesis Sorcatrix doesn't mean they don't blast well enough to do it effectively on their own merits; that argument is a bit like 'Warblades are terrible melee types because a tricked out Druid/Warshaper/MoMF does melee better.'  The emphasis on taking the Fire Element is about options, leaving yourself the most versatility in spell selection.  The ability to handle multiple situations well trumps the ability to handle a specific situation very well.
I disagree, because Warblades are great on their own, while I'm unconvinced Shugenja blasting is worth much. The problem of unoptimized blasting is that makes you, a spellcaster, do the same thing as meleers/archers, only less well. I guess I should run some numbers instead of eyeballing things. :) I'd like to see what spells known a Fire Shugenja takes, and how it applies metamagic. IMO the point of (unreduced) metamagic is that the Sorcerer can take fewer blasting spells and upgrade them with, say, Empower. But a Fire Shugenja is basically forced to take some blasting spells at each level.

Quote
Yes, Haste is more damaging than most blasting spells.  Take Fire as your Element, and you still have access to Haste.  You also have access to the various blasting spells. which you can metamagic enough to matter, even if you can't take them to the level of 'don't point that at my planet.'  Take Water, and the latter isn't true anymore.
My take is that whether you're Water or Fire, the best you can do with your actions is generally to use Air or Earth spells. So, yeah, I see lots of known Water/Fire spells going unused. But healing will be a better secondary contribution to the party than blasting IMHO.

Quote
Take Water with an Order dedicated to Water, and all you do is heal, and you do that less well than almost any other class the designers  intended for healing.
You're not being very fair: an optimized Water Shugenja would definitely never take a Water-dominant order, just like a Fire Shugenja wouldn't take Order of the Consuming Flame. :P
(Sadly this detracts from flavor a bit, but not sucking comes first.)

I actually suspect we're coming at this from different perspectives: I'm optimizing the Shugenja as the primary divine caster in a party, whereas as far as I can see you assume there already is a Cleric around (for healing, restoration & resurrections). That would explain much of our disagreement: if there's a Cleric around who agrees to take care of healing, I'd also recommend Fire.

I fully realize that I lack experience with Shugenjas, so I still support that you give more weight to Kuro's thoughts. ;)

edit: I haven't combed through your order ratings, but I think you're overestimating the Order of the Ineffable Mystery a bit. I'd say *no* current Order is worth 5 stars (a bit depressing, I know). Like most classes with little support, Shugenjas can use some houseruling: perhaps some cleric domains could be made into orders.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2009, 11:35:02 AM by Omen of Peace »
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Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2009, 12:12:29 PM »
Quote
I actually suspect we're coming at this from different perspectives: I'm optimizing the Shugenja as the primary divine caster in a party, whereas as far as I can see you assume there already is a Cleric around (for healing, restoration & resurrections). That would explain much of our disagreement: if there's a Cleric around who agrees to take care of healing, I'd also recommend Fire.
I'm coming from the perspective that there should be someone else in the party capable of providing some healing, somehow, if you've got a Shugenja in the party.  To do otherwise leaves the Shugenja in the unenviable position of being forced into band-aid role, which he does poorly compared to Clerics, Druids, Healers, or even Dragon Shamans or Bards who are built to emphasize that role.  "Some healing" can be as minimal as having a Paladin or Bard in the party, or someone with UMD and some scrolls/wands.  And, as I indicated earlier, a Cleric need not 'agree to take care of healing' in order to be as proficient at it as a Shugenja in a standard campaign; a Cleric needs merely be present.

As far as the rating system, it's my opinion that the Order of Ineffable Mystery is the best available Order for most builds and campaigns, and is therefore the default 5-star choice.  Yes, it's grading on a curve, but it's rating the class on it's own merits, rather than saying 'it sucks compared to X, so can't get 5 stars."
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Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2009, 03:53:13 PM »
"Some healing" can be as minimal as having a Paladin or Bard in the party, or someone with UMD and some scrolls/wands.  And, as I indicated earlier, a Cleric need not 'agree to take care of healing' in order to be as proficient at it as a Shugenja in a standard campaign; a Cleric needs merely be present.

Bards don't have restorative magic, but I agree they can make do with UMD. As for Clerics, you're discounting negative energy Clerics or Spontaneous Domain (PHB2 ?) Clerics - I had those in mind when I made that remark.

As for the rationale behind your rating: understood.

Side point: I didn't realize people viewed Tenebrous' turn attempts as unbalanced (nitpick: it's not NI ! It's about 2000 if you use them continually during your waking time). IMO it's not that good in most cases (IIRC there are a few Divine/Devotion feats that can lead to trouble). You still need Turn Undead from another class to qualify for Divine feats anyway (Sacred Exorcist is incompatible with Anima Mage), and you can use only 1 at a time.
Even if you dislike Anima Mage, I would leave it black: you gain a lot of Cha-based abilities for the price of 1 level and 1 feat.

So, I'd be interested in having an experienced Fire Shugenja player post a list of spells known - perhaps Kuro still has his old character around ?
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Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2009, 04:29:28 PM »
So, I'd be interested in having an experienced Fire Shugenja player post a list of spells known - perhaps Kuro still has his old character around ?

Good luck with that. I hear they burn their sheets after dying.
 :p





[spoiler][/spoiler]

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Re: Shugenja Handbook
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2009, 06:41:30 PM »
Quote
As for Clerics, you're discounting negative energy Clerics or Spontaneous Domain (PHB2 ?) Clerics - I had those in mind when I made that remark.
You're right, I was not considering negative energy Clerics.  That's on me for having been in mostly 'no EEEEEVIL allowed' campaigns.  The 'Domain Spontaneity' variety was what I was intending to allude to with 'in a standard campaign'; I was most likely too vague in that allusion.

Quote
Even if you dislike Anima Mage, I would leave it black: you gain a lot of Cha-based abilities for the price of 1 level and 1 feat.
I was originally considering it a black level PrC, actually; discussions with JWO and others more well-versed in Binders and Anima Mages than I were what made me reconsider.  If they come along to comment, they can reiterate the points made, or post those discussions.
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