Author Topic: Working on Gestalt Game -no core classes, TOB/XPH/TOM/MOI instead  (Read 6387 times)

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Operation Shoestring

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... except the Bard.

I'm going to primarily use the MOi/TOM/TOB/XPH classes, with a few others.

http://www.gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewforum.php?f=607825

Anyway, gestalt, starts at level 6, homebrew campaign setting.

Plotwise, I don't want to spoil much, but expect the story to be framed by guerilla warfare.  You'll be fighting against Wizards and Clerics and other PHB classes in a conquerirng army.  Your home plane isn't very arcane-magic friendly (school casting only - beguiler, dread necro, warmage), and the deities aren't too keen on granting spells (the only divine caster right now is healer.. maybe ardent), so you can't be clerics or wizards.

I'll be putting up more materiel at the linked subforum over the course of the week.  Sorry about the whole "offsite" deal, but I like to have my own private space.

Feel free to declare interest and ask questions in this thread.

Kaelik

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Re: Working on Gestalt Game -no core classes, TOB/XPH/TOM/MOI instead
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2009, 02:10:04 AM »
I'll be building up a Factotum//Warblade over the next day or so. I assume that the Factotum levels will not count as 1/2 for IL.

Operation Shoestring

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Re: Working on Gestalt Game -no core classes, TOB/XPH/TOM/MOI instead
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2009, 06:03:08 AM »
I'll be building up a Factotum//Warblade over the next day or so. I assume that the Factotum levels will not count as 1/2 for IL.

no, there is no cross side stacking.

As a note, i'm giving priority to certain friends who don't post here, if they want to play, so spots are limited.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 06:05:30 AM by Operation Shoestring »

PhoenixInferno

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Re: Working on Gestalt Game -no core classes, TOB/XPH/TOM/MOI instead
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2009, 07:21:06 AM »
Can't even use Fighter for the bonus feats?

Hmm...a Swordsage/Crusader || Psychic Warrior...?
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 07:22:37 AM by PhoenixInferno »

Operation Shoestring

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Re: Working on Gestalt Game -no core classes, TOB/XPH/TOM/MOI instead
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2009, 07:27:15 AM »
Can't even use Fighter for the bonus feats?

Hmm...a Swordsage/Crusader || Psychic Warrior...?

Yeah sorry.  No fighters in Cantios because why would there be when Psychic warrios and martial adepts are better?

Madept/psywar is fine.

Kaelik

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Re: Working on Gestalt Game -no core classes, TOB/XPH/TOM/MOI instead
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2009, 01:14:42 PM »
Okay, changing things up. Instead going with a Pixie Swordsage//factotum. Mostly tripping people and such. Will be awesome. Wanted to try an LA race in one of those situations they don't suck, and and Pixie using awesome tripping is cool.

If asking for Pixie is required, then consider this asking. Also, since I'm going to have dodge, do you have any houserules about it to skip the naming some guy part of the feat?

Also, I can't find kbsnowowl's gestalt rules even using google.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2009, 01:33:44 PM by Kaelik »

skydragonknight

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Re: Working on Gestalt Game -no core classes, TOB/XPH/TOM/MOI instead
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2009, 03:08:33 PM »
Can Healer be straight Cha-based, since it sucks at everything else?
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Operation Shoestring

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Re: Working on Gestalt Game -no core classes, TOB/XPH/TOM/MOI instead
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2009, 05:12:03 PM »
Can Healer be straight Cha-based, since it sucks at everything else?

I haven't posted my healer fix yet.  Healers are now spontaeous casters like the warmage.  Casting is based solely on WIS, add CHA to hp healed.  Healers get either turn undead or animal companion (as the druid) at level 1.

I will put up fixes for the Shadowcaster and Soulborn later too.

Hmn, i wonder if i should add in legacy weapons.

woodenbandman

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Re: Working on Gestalt Game -no core classes, TOB/XPH/TOM/MOI instead
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2009, 05:38:23 PM »
Prime's doing a thing with VoP + Free legacy weapon and no treasurev (weapons have no downsides).

Could I join this? I've never entered a gestalt game before.

I also have a shadowcaster fix you might want to check out. It combines Shadowcaster with Swordsage to give it a maneuvers-recovered mechanic on mysteries. It also learns Shadow Hand maneuvers.

Possible build ideas:

Wildshape Variant Ranger (technically not from the 3 core books)/Master of Many Forms//Totemist/Barbarian/Totem Rager

Egoist/Elocater/Slayer crap//Warblade

Warblade/Bloodstorm Blade/Master Thrower//Something(a much toned down version of the Gatling Shuriken Cannon that I posted over at Min/Max)





jameswilliamogle

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Re: Working on Gestalt Game -no core classes, TOB/XPH/TOM/MOI instead
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2009, 07:47:56 PM »
What about UA stuff?  Druidic Avenger?  Paragon classes?

Desert Half Orc Paragon 3 / Binder 3 FTW!

Either that or a straight Truenamer.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2009, 07:49:57 PM by jameswilliamogle »

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Re: Working on Gestalt Game -no core classes, TOB/XPH/TOM/MOI instead
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2009, 09:04:49 PM »
Prime's doing a thing with VoP + Free legacy weapon and no treasurev (weapons have no downsides).

Could I join this? I've never entered a gestalt game before.

I also have a shadowcaster fix you might want to check out. It combines Shadowcaster with Swordsage to give it a maneuvers-recovered mechanic on mysteries. It also learns Shadow Hand maneuvers.

Possible build ideas:

Wildshape Variant Ranger (technically not from the 3 core books)/Master of Many Forms//Totemist/Barbarian/Totem Rager

Egoist/Elocater/Slayer crap//Warblade

Warblade/Bloodstorm Blade/Master Thrower//Something(a much toned down version of the Gatling Shuriken Cannon that I posted over at Min/Max)


I'l stick with my shadowcaster fix, thanks.

I posted what classes are available. Wildshape Ranger is not available.  I want to avoid transformation as much as possible, to ease the amount of data I have to track.

This is not prime's game.  I don't want "blow up the world" level optimization.  keep it reasonable.  PrC's on one side only, and barbarians don't exist... though I could allow a dip if you want totem rager *that* badly.  Gestalt tier 3 is the idea, so no crazy rules abuse on the psionic powers.

Variants of core classes are no go.  No druidic avenger.  Paragon classes are fine... ugh, just follow the linky and read the rules. 

emissary666

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Re: Working on Gestalt Game -no core classes, TOB/XPH/TOM/MOI instead
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2009, 09:24:28 PM »
Binder/Dred Necro may be coming soon, or not
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jameswilliamogle

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Re: Working on Gestalt Game -no core classes, TOB/XPH/TOM/MOI instead
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2009, 09:35:57 PM »
Binder/Dred Necro may be coming soon, or not
Horrible classes, both of them!

[spoiler]=Versatile Spellcaster] - would this allow spending spell slots from any class to cast any spell known, or is it limited in some way???[/spoiler]

I'm a bit confused by the proposed fix for Truenaming -
[spoiler]
1) Truenaming does not power magic, but rather modfies it. Trunaming checks are no longer based on the HD of the target. Truenamers can cast any of their utterances so long as they succeed on a DC 10 + Utterance level truename check. Otherwise, the utterance fails. Speaking Defensively adds +5 to the check as normal.

This seems a bit strong - most utterances don't have save DCs, and the effects although limited are still pretty good.  At 6th level - I only have to hit a 13 DC for an auto-make 1/day, but at 6th level I can get the auto DC up to 16 without effort (or 25 with an Item Familiar).  Is this intended?

2) A trunamer can add to an Utterance. Extra targets, Increased effective spell level, Increased DC, and Increased CL are all possible augments. Each cumulatively adds +4 to the DC of check. The target DC of the check must be declared before the check is made. If the check fails by 5 or less and still passes the DC for the unagmented untterance, the utterance still functions but is unaugmented.

I like this - so, if I want to target 2 allies instead of 1, just increase the DC by 4?  Still strong, but much more reasonable, I think.

3) Using the same utterance on the same target more than once per day causes the Law of Resistences to come into play. The DC of the check increases by +5 cumulatively.

I guess this is the real limiter to 1 above (this is in addition to the +2 to the DC from the Law of Resistance on p233, making it +7?).  I'm really curious if this will actually pan out to being balanced and workable (I don't think the class as written was that bad, though).

In addition, an utterance "retraining" option, like a Sorcerer's retraining of spells every other level, might be really useful.[/spoiler]

OK, think I'm throwing in my hat for a Marshall 1 / Truespeaker 5 // Shadowcaster 6 (IF marshall is allowed - its not on the list; otherwise, just a Truespeaker 6 // Shadowcaster 6 - but it also depends how many Dread Necros will be in the party).

What is the thing about dipping mean?  We can only dip those classes?

Also, templates - it says that by reducing point buy by 4 that we can remove 2 LA.  If I reduce it by 8, can I buy off 4 LA?  I'm interested in a Half-Celestial Dark creature (Dark creatures are from ToM p. 161; seems like it could be very interesting to me).
« Last Edit: May 05, 2009, 11:50:47 PM by jameswilliamogle »

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Re: Working on Gestalt Game -no core classes, TOB/XPH/TOM/MOI instead
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2009, 11:46:47 PM »
Versatile Spellcaster

I don't believe i am allowing that feat.

Quote
This seems a bit strong - most utterances don't have save DCs, and the effects although limited are still pretty good.  At 6th level - I only have to hit a 13 DC for an auto-make 1/day, but at 6th level I can get the auto DC up to 16 without effort (or 25 with an Item Familiar).  Is this intended?

Utterances have saves like spells.  10+ Utterance Level + int + bonuses from higher Truename check.



Quote
I like this - so, if I want to target 2 allies instead of 1, just increase the DC by 4?  Still strong, but much more reasonable, I think.

Yeah, that would be the idea


Quote
I guess this is the real limiter to 1 above (this is in addition to the +2 to the DC from the Law of Resistance on p233, making it +7?).  I'm really curious if this will actually pan out to being balanced and workable (I don't think the class as written was that bad, though).

It replaces the Law of Resistences.  You can't do the same effect to the same target more than once without significant penalty, but doing different things to the same target is fine.

Quote
In addition, an utterance "retraining" option, like a Sorcerer's retraining of spells every other level, might be really useful.

I'll put in something like that.

Quote
OK, think I'm throwing in my hat for a Marshall 1 / Truespeaker 5 // Shadowcaster 6 (IF marshall is allowed - its not on the list; otherwise, just a Truespeaker 6 // Shadowcaster 6 - but it also depends how many Dread Necros will be in the party).

Keep in mind that I haven't put up notes for Dread necro yet.  People may decide not to play one when i point out that I really can't allow them to amass undead minions.  To unwieldy for a PBP game.  1 undead minion, sure.  2 maybe.  I really want to minimize the stats I have to keep track of. 

Quote
What is the thing about dipping mean?  We can only dip those classes?
No it;s a no more than "3 levels in these classes" rule. Basically allow people to dip a bit into classes outside th official list if they really just *have* to get precision damage or unarmed strike progression or rage for their character concept.  It's not meant to allow people to amass power by crazy!dip, just get a class feature they otherwise wouldn't get and I judge to be okay.

Quote
Also, templates - it says that by reducing point buy by 4 that we can remove 2 LA.  If I reduce it by 8, can I buy off 4 LA?  I'm interested in a Half-Celestial Dark creature (Dark creatures are from ToM p. 161; seems like it could be very interesting to me).

Yes.  You can spent the -4 for 2 multiple times, but don't overdo it.  I'll take a look at dark.  Where's half celestial from?

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Working on Gestalt Game -no core classes, TOB/XPH/TOM/MOI instead
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2009, 11:52:45 PM »
Half-celestial is SRD.

I'm actually kind of against amassing undead hordes with Dread Necros (the paperwork is freakin' killer).  If you replace the superior undead creation abilities with something comparable, I'd be VERY happy!

woodenbandman

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Re: Working on Gestalt Game -no core classes, TOB/XPH/TOM/MOI instead
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2009, 12:19:34 AM »
Hey Kaelik check the tripping clause that limits it to only creatures 1 size category larger than you. You'll be tripping small creatures like a fiend  :lmao.

And I absolutely promise that I will not blow up the rules except under very dire circumstances. I'm liking the Shuriken Cannon War Mind//Elocator that is in my head. Hard to pull off, but awesome. I'm thinking Intuitive Attack + Aptitude Crescent Knife = fun? Or is this a bit much? Also I just found out that Crescent Knives are dragon magazine so that right there's probably an outright ban.

For the record I have no idea how Linked Power works. I might not even touch it.

How's rebuilding going? Banned? Moderated? I'm thinking I might want to rebuild some of my (less useful) Warblade levels into Bloodstorm Blade levels.

Proposed build idea:

Warblade 5/Bloodstorm Blade1//Egoist 6; continuing on to Bloodstorm Blade +3/Master Thrower 1/War Mind 5/Undecided5//Egoist+14. Probably a far-off pipe dream of a goal, but I like it. Choices for last levels include some more Bloodstorm Blade, more Master Thrower, More War Mind, more Warblade... I don't really know.

Kaelik

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Re: Working on Gestalt Game -no core classes, TOB/XPH/TOM/MOI instead
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2009, 02:21:37 AM »
Hey Kaelik check the tripping clause that limits it to only creatures 1 size category larger than you. You'll be tripping small creatures like a fiend

Pretty sure it doesn't inherit itself into throw maneuvers, which is what I'm doing anyway. Since it also let's me "trip" flying creatures as long as they are within range of the ground.

It's good stuff, thinking of getting flyby attack at 9 to go with cunning surge at 8, the point being I could flyby throw them, then land next to them and use another maneuver.

Also, not sure whether improved trip gives me the attack on the a throw or not.

Operation Shoestring

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Re: Working on Gestalt Game -no core classes, TOB/XPH/TOM/MOI instead
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2009, 05:54:27 AM »
Hey Kaelik check the tripping clause that limits it to only creatures 1 size category larger than you. You'll be tripping small creatures like a fiend

Pretty sure it doesn't inherit itself into throw maneuvers, which is what I'm doing anyway. Since it also let's me "trip" flying creatures as long as they are within range of the ground.

It's good stuff, thinking of getting flyby attack at 9 to go with cunning surge at 8, the point being I could flyby throw them, then land next to them and use another maneuver.

Also, not sure whether improved trip gives me the attack on the a throw or not.

When in doubt I tend to default to Rule of Cool, common sense, Laws of Physics, and then text, in roughly that order.

Tripping creatures in air shouldn't have a size limit.  You're hitting a pinion to force a stall.  But improved trip's extra attack on a trip at range..... kinda hard to justify.

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Re: Working on Gestalt Game -no core classes, TOB/XPH/TOM/MOI instead
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2009, 08:16:30 AM »
Nice setup !

Quick remark: competence bonuses are actually more common than insight bonuses, and they don't stack. I recommend against your changing the melds that way ; make them untyped if you want them to stack.
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Operation Shoestring

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Re: Working on Gestalt Game -no core classes, TOB/XPH/TOM/MOI instead
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2009, 04:56:13 PM »
Nice setup !

Quick remark: competence bonuses are actually more common than insight bonuses, and they don't stack. I recommend against your changing the melds that way ; make them untyped if you want them to stack.

Hmn. okay, custom bonus type for incarnum melds?  so they don't stack with eachother, but do stack with other stuff?