Author Topic: Explaining why VOP is not broken.  (Read 9025 times)

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Operation Shoestring

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Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« on: May 03, 2009, 04:39:27 PM »
I took a shot at this ovr at myth-weavers, but i dunno how well made the point.  You guys wanna chime in with more arguments about why VOP is not broken and is in fact weak?

Eldariel

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2009, 04:50:36 PM »
VoP improves your numbers. Magic items can do anything. Therefore, instead of being able to purchase anything, you just get better numbers. As a caster, you'll have to give up caster level increases, metamagic rods, etc. As a melee type, you'll have to give up true seeing, teleportation, flight and have to overcome all the hurdles melee types suffer of without access to the spells that normally overcome them. Oh, and you can't get any useful weapon special abilities.

Basically, while the numbers of VoP may look good (they are for the first 5 or so levels - indeed, a VoP "non-armor character" can easily break the game by simply having the equivalents of high-level Bracers of Armor that works with their unarmored style). Once you start to put together funds to buy more effective items though, VoP swiftly loses its luster as it never grants you all the good stuff (seriously, try to replicate Belt of Battle with the feat; hell, initiative-boosters are practically impossible to come by let alone inherent stat bonuses or the like).


As soon as you can afford few magic items, VoP starts to restrict you more than it helps you. Good luck fighting that Dragon without being able to fly. And your casting ability is severely hampered by lower caster level and not being able to spontaneously apply metamagic through Rods, not to mention stuff like Ring of Spell-Battle, Ring of Counterspells, etc. VoP replicates the basic number buffs but nothing beyond that while items generally do everything else too. VoP tries to replicate what your wealth would get you, but it's more restricted and doesn't give you the best, most important pieces because they're class-specific and VoP is general.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 04:56:48 PM by Eldariel »

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2009, 04:57:39 PM »
Ability scores. Plain and simple, you will never have the same ability scores as someone who doesn't use VoP. Why? You lack the Tomes and Manuals. All you get are enhancements (and only 8/6/4/2, which means MAD classes fall behind). The best you can hope for is a 27 or so, rather than the normal 30 that most people put in their primary and Con.

Secondly, the Exalted Bonus to AC is the exact same as +5 Full Plate. While it doesn't have the penalties of Full Plate, it lacks the customization of normal armor. This means you fall behind the curve. Furthermore, AC sucks at the mid-high levels. You are much better off just buying +1/+X armor of whatever than sticking with the bonus.

Third, the enhancement bonus to basic weapons caps out at a +5. You can't even customize that. This means you fall even further behind, as other melee characters are doing better things with their normal weapons. Oh, and you can't overcome DR/Silver, Cold Iron, or other special materials at all. Never mind DR/Chaotic or Lawful. And Tzeentch help you if something actually has DR/Evil.

Last, focuses and material components cost you XP. The price of a Raise Dead? 1000xp, no save. Revivify? 200xp. You lose out.





After all, why spend feats or levels when GP can do everything better?


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ninjarabbit

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2009, 05:04:56 PM »
Because the only classes that can use VoP effectively without falling too far behind the others are the druid and MAYBE the sorcerer. Every other class (including the monk) is too item dependent to function even at a basic level.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2009, 05:20:33 PM »
Because the only classes that can use VoP effectively without falling too far behind the others are the druid and MAYBE the sorcerer. Every other class (including the monk) is too item dependent to function even at a basic level.
And most of the psionic classes. You could probably make a really nasty VoP psion, actually. I doubt it would be better than a similarly well-built one without VoP, though. :p

In a game where the DM is stingy with magic items, I could see why VoP might seem overpowered. I think a lot of people are still stuck in the 2nd edition mentality of not being able to buy magic items, and of magic items being incredibly difficult to craft (permanently lose Con, F-that!  :lol ).
« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 05:23:04 PM by PhaedrusXY »
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2009, 05:25:59 PM »
Because the only classes that can use VoP effectively without falling too far behind the others are the druid and MAYBE the sorcerer. Every other class (including the monk) is too item dependent to function even at a basic level.

And Totemists/Incarnates, but they're special.


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Caelic

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2009, 06:20:30 PM »
Why VoP isn't broken:

Wizard: "I have spells.  I can fly."

Fighter: "I have potions.  I can fly."

VoP Monk:  *THUD*

McPoyo

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2009, 07:51:58 PM »
VoP Wizard: "I have spells. I can fly."
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Bozwevial

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2009, 08:00:50 PM »
VoP Wizard: "I have spells no spellbook. I can wish I could prepare Fly."

Fixed that for you.  ;)

Akalsaris

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2009, 08:03:04 PM »
I would argue that VoP is broken, in the sense that VoP can make a character much stronger than an equivalent level character with a different feat at 1-5, and much weaker than that same equivalent at 9-20.  It's just poorly designed.

I think a druid can also make good use of VoP if the druid focuses on wildshape also - the large amount of wild feats can go well with that.  Though it's only good in a game where wilding clasps aren't common.  

VOP is also nice on a cohort if the DM lets you be so cheesy :P

Prime32

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2009, 08:04:22 PM »
VOP is also nice on a cohort if the DM lets you be so cheesy :P
Pffft. Familiars get feats, don't they? :D
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Generic_PC

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2009, 08:05:23 PM »
Bozweviel, do you actually have a DM who will cripple his wizard? And if you do, why don't you know that already, thus having an extra spellbook squirelled away somewhere?

I swear, that is how the min/max boards deal with losing their spellbook.

On topic, I (and my meager op-fu) think that VoP is only broken in the most restricted of campaigns. When you're most expensive magic item found to-date is a single +1 longsword, VoP becomes so much better for the monk who doesn't want anything other than gold to stockpile, just so he can have a share.
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Bozwevial

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2009, 08:09:12 PM »
Bozweviel, do you actually have a DM who will cripple his wizard? And if you do, why don't you know that already, thus having an extra spellbook squirelled away somewhere?

I swear, that is how the min/max boards deal with losing their spellbook.

That's not the problem here, the problem is that the feat does not allow you to own a spellbook.

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2009, 09:08:47 PM »
The only way I think it can work is for a Psion to take VoP after hitting 17th level, using ALL his cash to buy permanent stat boosting equipment and researching cross-disciplinary powers beforehand. 

Eldariel

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2009, 09:11:24 PM »
The only way I think it can work is for a Psion to take VoP after hitting 17th level, using ALL his cash to buy permanent stat boosting equipment and researching cross-disciplinary powers beforehand. 

You're still burning two feats for...nothing? Seriously, the problem of VoP is that the benefits just aren't all that and then some. I mean, you'd be stock without Torc of Power Preservation (for example) and with no bonus Power Points or some such.

Takanaki

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2009, 09:14:35 PM »
It's already been said, VoP isn't broken. It's strong in low/no-magic games or game that will never go much further than level ten. Otherwise it's pretty much... not so great. The higher level you go, the less appealing it becomes.

Akalsaris

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2009, 09:43:13 PM »
Bozweviel, do you actually have a DM who will cripple his wizard? And if you do, why don't you know that already, thus having an extra spellbook squirelled away somewhere?

I swear, that is how the min/max boards deal with losing their spellbook.

That's not the problem here, the problem is that the feat does not allow you to own a spellbook.

Though in all fairness, it's probably RAI that the wizard keeps his spellbook.

McPoyo

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2009, 09:44:21 PM »
VoP WizardSorcerer/Druid/Cleric: "I have spells no spellbook. I can wish I could prepare Fly."

Fixed that for you.  ;)

Fixed again for myself.

And doubtful, Akalsaris, since it specifically mentions a spell component pouch. Then again, it doesn't list a holy symbol or other divine focus either, so...
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Bozwevial

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2009, 10:07:30 PM »
Given: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20060616a

It's not likely, considering the bits that say:

Quote
Clerics have a lot of spells with divine foci, so it's hard to avoid them. Paladins and clerics cannot turn undead without a holy symbol.

and

Quote
Wizard. Two words: no spellbook. 'Nuff said.

Heliomance

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2009, 10:31:08 PM »
VoP Monk: The party wizard isn't a powergaming dick and will actually help out the party. He casts fly on me.

VoP Monk: The party knock me unconcious and inscribe magic tattoos on me, then when I wake up they bluff me into thinking that they are divine blessings because I was so faithful to my god. Thereafter I can fly by shouting "For Kord!" (one of the groups near me did this. Much hilarity was had.)

Party rogue: That guy with the VoP can't get magic items. Sure, he has to give his share of the treasure to charity, but who says he needs to know how much treasure we're getting? I'm the only one that knows ow much this stuff's worth, so I'll tell him we get less stuff than we really do. The party gets more loot overall, and that Holy Joe has a peaceful concience.


The downsides to VoP are not insurmountable.