Author Topic: Spreading the Optimization Gospel  (Read 8607 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Solo

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2684
  • Solo the Sorcelator, at your service
Re: Spreading the Optimization Gospel
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2009, 06:47:35 PM »
Quote
incorruptible (I can't quite recall, Percival maybe?  Frodo)
Galahad.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Bohemond

  • Monkey bussiness
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: Spreading the Optimization Gospel
« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2009, 06:59:45 PM »
Quote
incorruptible (I can't quite recall, Percival maybe?  Frodo)
Galahad.

Galahad first appears in the Vulgate Cycle.  Perceval was the first Grail knight in Chretien, who finally achieves his goal in Wolfram von Eschenbach's Parzifal.


Solo

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2684
  • Solo the Sorcelator, at your service
Re: Spreading the Optimization Gospel
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2009, 07:05:50 PM »
Ni.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Bohemond

  • Monkey bussiness
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: Spreading the Optimization Gospel
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2009, 08:07:58 PM »
Ni.

Ni is from the Nibelungenlied.  Sheesh, nobody reads books anymore. 

Solo

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2684
  • Solo the Sorcelator, at your service
Re: Spreading the Optimization Gospel
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2009, 08:21:19 PM »
As reluctant as I am to do it, you now have +1 fu.

By the way, what's the box thing that keeps popping up everytime I gives someone fu? I never know what to put in it, so I usually end up entering "For Sexual Favors"

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Kuroimaken

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 6733
Re: Spreading the Optimization Gospel
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2009, 09:47:23 PM »
I wish I knew.

Frankly, it's been an uphill losing battle for me for a while now. The guys I play with are generally okay, but frankly, I'm starting to wonder if I should even bother trying anymore. The easiest way for them to reject something is to name it "broken" or "overpowered". One of their most basic criteria for deciding whether a book is "broken" or not is to check for the word "compendium" in the title (I SHIT YOU NOT, GENTLEFOLK).

But I think what peeves me off the most is the fact that they call me a "cheater" for looking CO stuff up and when it comes to "opinion" on how to do things, they completely disregard mine. Seriously, I keep wondering how the HELL they can say to my face that they acknowledge the fact I research this kind of thing (not quite extensively, might I add; I mainly use the handbooks as my sole resource) and yet claim that THEIR knowledge of what's supposed to be "broken" or not is bigger than mine. Have a little respect, for fuck's sake!

Sorry. This rant probably belonged in the venting thread.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


Bozwevial

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4497
  • Developing a relaxed attitude to danger.
Re: Spreading the Optimization Gospel
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2009, 10:09:31 PM »
All I can say, Kuro, is that (much as this has been said before) you should teach by example.

...And yeah, the Rules Compendium is completely broken. *eyeroll*

McPoyo

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3783
    • Email
Re: Spreading the Optimization Gospel
« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2009, 10:23:21 PM »
I wish I knew.

Frankly, it's been an uphill losing battle for me for a while now. The guys I play with are generally okay, but frankly, I'm starting to wonder if I should even bother trying anymore. The easiest way for them to reject something is to name it "broken" or "overpowered". One of their most basic criteria for deciding whether a book is "broken" or not is to check for the word "compendium" in the title (I SHIT YOU NOT, GENTLEFOLK).

But I think what peeves me off the most is the fact that they call me a "cheater" for looking CO stuff up and when it comes to "opinion" on how to do things, they completely disregard mine. Seriously, I keep wondering how the HELL they can say to my face that they acknowledge the fact I research this kind of thing (not quite extensively, might I add; I mainly use the handbooks as my sole resource) and yet claim that THEIR knowledge of what's supposed to be "broken" or not is bigger than mine. Have a little respect, for fuck's sake!

Sorry. This rant probably belonged in the venting thread.

Should tape lables with the work "Compendium" into the PHB after every time the word "Monk" is used :P
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

RobbyPants

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 7139
Re: Spreading the Optimization Gospel
« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2009, 10:15:56 AM »
All but you TPKs.

I've done this. Everyone but my flying, mirror imaged wizard (No, let me buff you before we run in...) got hit by some crazy earthquake. Then, the boss guy came out, and I had a 4 round long battle. 2 rounds were used countering spells, then I polymorphed when the BBEG tried to start summoning. It was pretty good. I got like 3700 xp ahead of my party. At 7th.

The next campaign, everyone was playing a spellcaster, cept me. Displays like this, where you absolutely own without taking damage, etc. Are the best way, in my opinion.
I'm currently running a conjurer in a game with a player running a hexblade.  This is the player's first character.  He's been having fun, and I do my best to buff him with things like Haste and Enlarge Person when I can (although he turns down the EP too often).  While he typically deals the bulk of the damage, I've shown that I can solo encounters more than once.  I find myself deliberately holding back most fights so he can have fun.

Anyway, I was talking to him one time, and he said that in the next game, he wants to play a wizard.  I think this approach worked pretty well. ;)
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

ReaderOfPosts

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 115
    • Email
Re: Spreading the Optimization Gospel
« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2009, 10:44:05 PM »
I generally enjoy playing spellcasters and especially psions for that reason. I sit back, plop a few defensive buffs and battlefield control up, and then when things go south open up and nova and take care of everything.

Generally I find however that people tend to overrate being able to do something all day. The reason why spellcasters suck at blasting is not because they can't do ridiculous amounts of blasting in a round, but that they can't do it all day. A properly optimized martial character can maybe only do 2/3 the damage a round, but has no limitations as for how long and how reliably. Allegations of overpoweredness follow the flash and not the boom.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2009, 10:57:17 PM by ReaderOfPosts »

Caelic

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 979
Re: Spreading the Optimization Gospel
« Reply #30 on: May 06, 2009, 11:49:34 AM »
I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here.

Full optimization is not the "right" way to play.

It's a good way to play.  There's nothing wrong with it.  But there's also nothing inherently right about it, anything that renders it inherently superior.

The right level of optimization is the level at which the group as a whole is comfortable and having fun.

If one person optimizes characters at the full-blown Incantatrix level, and everyone else is happy playing straight fighters and monks and that cleric with a level of rogue "for flavor," there's a problem.  The one character is going to dominate play, which will probably not be fun for the group as a whole.  That is not a failing on the part of the less optimized; nor is the solution necessarily for them to "improve their game" by creating more optimized characters.

Likewise, if most of the group is optimizing at a high level, and one player insists on making much less optimized characters, there's a problem.  The one character will be completely overshadowed and probably a liability, which again is not fun.  That is not a fault of the players who are making more optimized characters; nor is the solution for the entire group to limit themselves to the level at which the one player is happy.

I think this is why some players resent CO so much: the idea that it's a gospel to be spread, with the implication that those who aren't doing it are somehow playing the game wrong and need to mend their ways. 

It ain't so.  In the end, the game's about having fun, and the way to have fun is to find a game and a level of play which works for everyone involved.

woodenbandman

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2188
    • Email
Re: Spreading the Optimization Gospel
« Reply #31 on: May 06, 2009, 11:57:42 AM »
^True dat, but creating characters that are absolute dick within the rules of a game is akin to playing chess without all the pieces. If you don't want to bother to learn how the rules of the game work and get good at them, why play the game? A group that does all that RP stuff could probably be better served with a strictly storytelling game, unless they want to actually kill things, in which case they should learn the game rules.

Midnight_v

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2660
  • Dulce et decorum est pro alea mori.
Re: Spreading the Optimization Gospel
« Reply #32 on: May 06, 2009, 12:24:38 PM »
^True dat, but creating characters that are absolute dick within the rules of a game is akin to playing chess without all the pieces. If you don't want to bother to learn how the rules of the game work and get good at them, why play the game? A group that does all that RP stuff could probably be better served with a strictly storytelling game, unless they want to actually kill things, in which case they should learn the game rules.

A group that does primarily Rp stuff could probably be better served with a strictly storytelling game, because D&D 3.5  is primarily a combat game. That being the case they should learn the game rules, a game having acutally "rules" indicates there may be some "correct" style of play.
*amended*
Quote
I think this is why some players resent CO so much: the idea that it's a gospel to be spread, with the implication that those who aren't doing it are somehow playing the game wrong and need to mend their ways. 
Says the wayward bearer of the 10 commandments. *devil's advocate indeed...*
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

Prime32

  • Administrator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 7534
  • Modding since 03/12/10
Re: Spreading the Optimization Gospel
« Reply #33 on: May 06, 2009, 12:57:27 PM »
Some people don't enjoy building optimised characters because it's too much work, and they're playing the game to have fun. Others prefer to optimise for concept or coolness rather than power.
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Brainpiercing

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1475
  • Thread Killer
    • Email
Re: Spreading the Optimization Gospel
« Reply #34 on: May 06, 2009, 01:14:19 PM »
Some people don't enjoy building optimised characters because it's too much work, and they're playing the game to have fun. Others prefer to optimise for concept or coolness rather than power.
Yeh, and some people even optimize their gimpiness.

What I keep saying is this: In a game like D&D, that has fixed rules on how you can do stuff, you have to build a cool character to be able to play him like a cool character. Anything else just won't work, and will just seem stupid. Substitute cool for bad-ass where necessary.

And those people that are completely into the flavour thing shouldn't bitch if their characters are weak. Except they still DO. So they are hypocrites, whereas I say that I don't want to play a character that sucks at what he does.

Now I must say you CAN overmechanise things. I have trouble roleplaying the aquisition of abilities for my Lvl8 Crasher/Blade/Barb/Crusader, at least in game. The strange thing is the best roleplaying experience I have in D&D is in my epic group, because I can basically do EVERYTHING, so I can just sit back and relax and play the character, while occasionally thinking about the mechanics. I mean honestly, there is so much cheese on that character that it's really not nice, but at least I can roleplay him nicely. For instance, he's a necromancer, and he rules a little country that is basically Pleasantville. Being able to do things like that... I can only do them because I can rightfully say that this character is poweful enough to do all that, and more. Flavour follows function in this case, because the function allows the flavour, and that should be a slap in the face of all those who still think you can't roleplay a character who is basically FULL of cheese.

Now this was sort of a rambling reply, I beg to excuse this.

sonofzeal

  • Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 317
Re: Spreading the Optimization Gospel
« Reply #35 on: May 06, 2009, 01:14:35 PM »
Our local Evocation-specialist Wizard became enlightened the day we fought an Iron Golem and we convinced her to use Sleet Storm.  That single spell had such a huge impact on an otherwise difficult fight, that it revealed to everyone there the glory of the God-Wizard.

(Party was that Evocationist Wizard, a Favoured Soul who couldn't tank the thing, a Dread Necromancer who couldn't do diddlysquat, and an Artificer using Rays instead of Orbs for his offense.)

Solo

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2684
  • Solo the Sorcelator, at your service
Re: Spreading the Optimization Gospel
« Reply #36 on: May 06, 2009, 02:51:03 PM »
I think this is why some players resent CO so much: the idea that it's a gospel to be spread, with the implication that those who aren't doing it are somehow playing the game wrong and need to mend their ways. 

Shun the non-believer!  Shuuun! Shuuuuun!

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Caelic

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 979
Re: Spreading the Optimization Gospel
« Reply #37 on: May 06, 2009, 03:02:29 PM »
^True dat, but creating characters that are absolute dick within the rules of a game is akin to playing chess without all the pieces. If you don't want to bother to learn how the rules of the game work and get good at them, why play the game?



But that's just it.  Most players are good at the rules--they just don't bother to squeeze every last ounce of efficiency out of them at every opportunity.

Seriously--I game with a group that has well over a century of D&D experience collectively.  Three of the players (myself included) have professional credentials in game design.

I still tend to optimize at a higher level than they do.

Prime32

  • Administrator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 7534
  • Modding since 03/12/10
« Last Edit: May 06, 2009, 03:36:22 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Kuroimaken

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 6733
Re: Spreading the Optimization Gospel
« Reply #39 on: May 06, 2009, 03:37:41 PM »
There should totally be a trope for stop using TVtropes.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!