Ultimate Magus

[Nox_Noctis]

I would contend that his Knight of the Weave find has a very different and impressive use: advancing Wizard by 17 levels of spell-casting over 10 levels of Ultimate Magus. Because Wizard casts prepared and spontaneous spells (with spontaneous divination, or better yet: spontaneous summoning for the conjurer), you should be able to stack the benefits. Using sufficient Cityscape feats (Favored, Primary Contact) and skill point retraining for early qualification, and then feat retraining (to get rid of the useless Cityscape feats later), you can do something like Wizard [Conjurer [Spontaneous Summoning]] 1/Master Specialist 4/Ultimate Magus 10/<Something 5> and cast as a level 27 Wizard by 20th level.

This also means you get 9th level spells at level 13.

Oh, your caster level goes through the roof this way, too, giving you 31 (27th wizard, +4 caster level) without even trying. Spell Resistance becomes worthless against you since you can further enhance this with ioun stones, etc.

[tarbrush]

I would contend that his Knight of the Weave find has a very different and impressive use: advancing Wizard by 17 levels of spell-casting over 10 levels of Ultimate Magus. Because Wizard casts prepared and spontaneous spells (with spontaneous divination, or better yet: spontaneous summoning for the conjurer), you should be able to stack the benefits. Using sufficient Cityscape feats (Favored, Primary Contact) and skill point retraining for early qualification, and then feat retraining (to get rid of the useless Cityscape feats later), you can do something like Wizard [Conjurer [Spontaneous Summoning]] 1/Master Specialist 4/Ultimate Magus 10/<Something 5> and cast as a level 27 Wizard by 20th level.

This also means you get 9th level spells at level 13.

Oh, your caster level goes through the roof this way, too, giving you 31 (27th wizard, +4 caster level) without even trying. Spell Resistance becomes worthless against you since you can further enhance this with ioun stones, etc.

Everything tells me that this shouldn't work, but I can't point to anything that says it doesn't.  So yes, sick, wrong and legal as far as I can see.  Would it not be slightly redundant though?  Cause there's no wizard spell progression for level 21 onwards.   My knowledge of epic could be written in big letters on a small postage stamp, but I think that you'd just end up with a very clever way of getting wizard SKL 20 with CL 27.

What this can do brilliantly is rebuild casting.  Cause UM has basically no pre reqs, you now have the ability to take all those crappy prestige classes that lose you caster levels, and then rebuild your casting back to 20th by taking a few levels of UM!

If you're prepared to use the trick, this changes everything when it comes to taking chosing wizard prestige classes.  You can take dual casting classes and still have 20th level spells.  You now have effectively 6 levels of whatever the fuck you want to add onto wizard 20.

F'rinstance:

Wizard 5/Ur-Priest 3/Ultimate Magus 5/Mystic Theurge 7.  Ho ho ho, I cast as a 20th level wizard AND a 10th level Ur Priest

Wizard 5/ UM 9/Warblade 6.  I too cast as a 20th level wizard, but I can also beat you with sticks.

There must be some massive sickness you can do with this and Fochlucan Lyrist for a true triple threat.

[tarbrush]

Whoops.

[Nox_Noctis]

Would it not be slightly redundant though?  Cause there's no wizard spell progression for level 21 onwards.   My knowledge of epic could be written in big letters on a small postage stamp, but I think that you'd just end up with a very clever way of getting wizard SKL 20 with CL 27.

Wizard 5/Ur-Priest 3/Ultimate Magus 5/Mystic Theurge 7.  Ho ho ho, I cast as a 20th level wizard AND a 10th level Ur Priest

Wizard 5/ UM 9/Warblade 6.  I too cast as a 20th level wizard, but I can also beat you with sticks.

Yes, it's slightly redundant, but you can get 9th level spells 4 levels earlier and, as already pointed out, pimp your caster level in the process. Yes, it makes prestige class options rather interesting (even sacrificing casting entirely in other prestige classes and still having 20th level casting).

The Warblade is less impressive since you only get up to 7th level maneuvers with it. This really necessitates fast progression classes to make an impressive dual- or triple-threat (such as with the Ur-Priest).

Also, it's way easier to pull off than using a bunch of prestige classes and bloodlines to increase casting, and you don't lose the other benefits of levels like you would with bloodlines (hit dice, while meager, still help, and even the very minor BAB increases aid your touch and ray spells a little bit, etc.). It's not phenomenal, but it's pretty solid at what it does.

It definitely dethrones the Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerers everywhere with Greater Draconic Rite and Loredrake for gaining early access to higher level spells. Of course, those kobolds have some other things going for them, but they finally lose out on that one (unless, of course, we can get Sorcerers to be able to prepare spells, which, actually, I think is possible with some feat I cannot recall at the moment; if we could apply this to those kobolds you could get 9th level spells at 11th level - albeit at the cost of a fixed number of spells known, etc., which hurts).



EDIT: With the right retraining you can even do this: Wizard [Conjurer [Spontaneous Summoning]] 1/Master Specialist 2/Ultimate Magus 10/Anything 8 and have your 20th level casting.

[tarbrush]

Well hooray!  I never liked kobolds anyway 

[ZeroSum]

Arcane Preparation is the feat you're looking for.

[Nox_Noctis]

Arcane Preparation is the feat you're looking for.

Okay, so now casters that are spontaneous-only normally can do it too with that feat. Hooray, now to find a new toy because this one is broken. >_>

[AndyJames]

Well, the Kobolds will still get a +3 caster on you, which means you can have more levels of other stuff in there

[Nox_Noctis]

Well, the Kobolds will still get a +3 caster on you, which means you can have more levels of other stuff in there

It's really only +2 since Sorcerers normally get their spells 1 level slower than Wizards do (so -1 +3 = +2 net gain). It's not bad at all, of course, but something that needs to be noted for accuracy.

[Omen of Peace]

I think one counter-argument to that trick was that it could be just as well interpreted as leveling by 1 each level instead of 2. And in case of uncertainty Caelic's holy commandments take the fore and since it's not Practical Op at all...

Mind you, I don't remember the details and I'm not interested in debating it. I just thought I'd mention it so people can go look it up in old threads on WotC if they want to.

[Nox_Noctis]

I think one counter-argument to that trick was that it could be just as well interpreted as leveling by 1 each level instead of 2. And in case of uncertainty Caelic's holy commandments take the fore and since it's not Practical Op at all...

I don't see it as not being practical optimization. It's another way to create a double-threat if you throw on Ur-Priest at the end. There are certainly other uses to it. It's powerful, definitely, but it's not single-handedly going to break a game even if it will create a very powerful character who gets his spells earlier. Dragonwrought Kobolds can already get 9th level spells at levle 15 without this trick though, so moving it up to 10 isn't the end of the world.

At each level except 1st, 4th, and 7th, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in both a prepared arcane casting class and a spontaneous arcane casting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level.

So, let's take Wizard with Spontaneous Summoning: I level up and gain a level "in both a prepared arcane casting class and a spontaneous arcane casting class." Let's apply the level I gained in a prepared arcane casting class: my wizard level increases by one. Let's apply the level I gained in a spontaneous arcane casting class: my wizard level increases by one.

That's definitely 2 levels, not 1. If it said you gained a level "in any prepared or spontaneous casting classes" or something to that effect, you would only gain 1 level, but then again it would be ridiculous and be capable of advancing every arcane class simultaneously, allowing you to take Wizard, X, and Y and advance them all significantly (especially once you use Practiced Spellcaster trickiness to make them all have the lowest caster level by having the same caster level).


NOTE: Augmented Casting is non-functional with this trick since you only have one arcane casting class and it requires "another" class.
NOTE: Expanded Spell Knowledge is non-functional with this trick since your spell lists for your arcane and spontaneous casting class is the same list and it only affects the spell list, not which spells you can actually cast spontaneously.

So, while you definitely get a nice boost to spell-casting, two class features are entirely worthless, leaving two bonus feats, +4 boosts to caster level, and accelerated spell gain. It's still nice, but I'm still not seeing the "broken" that would push it into the realm of theoretical optimization only.

[Omen of Peace]

I understand how the trick works. And again I'm not defending either POVs, just restating the opposite one. It was something along the lines of "increasing the CL once satisfies both the '+1 CL to spontaneous' and '+1 CL to prepared' hence it is a valid RAW interpretation."
If that is RAW too then the trick becomes not Practical Op because you're choosing the interpretation that is least in line with the rest of the game (PrCs don't double-progress).

I might be misremembering the arguments too - I had and still have little interest in them. Again, I suggest people who are interested in this debate look up the old threads.

Now for my personal opinion: I do think full wizard casting at level 13 is going to smash the campaign.

[ninjarabbit]

Arcane Preparation is the feat you're looking for.

Okay, so now casters that are spontaneous-only normally can do it too with that feat. Hooray, now to find a new toy because this one is broken. >_>

UM requires you to be able to prepare spells from a spellbookso arcane preparation by itself doesn't cut it.

[ZeroSum]

Good catch.  So we need a feat or simple prestige class that gives a Sorcerer a spellbook.

[tarbrush]

I've never heard of such a thing.  Unless...

Not got books atm, but doesn't Anyspell make you prepare a spell from a book?  So if you Arcane Disciple: Spell, you cast Anyspell and lo you have prepared an arcane spell from a book?

[Ramaloke]

My original build posted on the original thread. Never received much attention although the caster levels are simply jacked.

[Endarire]

Beholder Mage (Lords of Madness 43) grants spontaneous casting.  With Assume Supernatural Ability (SavS) and polymorph any object, you can become a gauth at level 6, get the ability to use its central antimagic eye, then immediately put it out.  You could go Wiz3/Master Specialist3/Beholder Mage1/UM9/Archmage2/X2.

[BowenSilverclaw]

Meh, a Loredrake Kobold gets the job done faster

[Endarire]

And a Phaerimm Sorcerer is faster still, treating each Sorcerer level as 2 if you interpret Phaerimm as I do.  (Lost Empires of Faerun 187-189)

[Negative Zero]

I can't see any other way to interpret it. 'Phaerimm's preferred class is Sorcerer, and it stacks with its base spellcasting ability'.