Author Topic: Gestalt Charisma Caster  (Read 4212 times)

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Jedda

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Gestalt Charisma Caster
« on: April 28, 2009, 10:54:29 AM »
Although I would like to play this character it won't be any time soon so for the minute this build is a mental exercise. I am aiming at a a character who is an effective blaster, buffer and party face. There is a touch of magical trickster/fate manipulator in here as well. I feel that I have probably over synergised a bit.

Books: All 3.5 although I was avoiding setting specific (more than willing to change this though). Don't mind Dragon magazine ideas but please tell me which issue as I'm not that familiar with it.

Race: Probably human?
- I want to keep the Fey aspect, Fey touched would give me an extra level to play with but less goodies.
- Could also go for a fey race, pixie? If so I need to drop two levels

Attributes: Cha>Dex>Int=Con=Wis>Strength???
Alignment: CG

1. 1/2 Fey LA 1        / Sorcerer 1
2. 1/2 Fey LA 2        / Sorcerer 2
3. Bard 1                 / Sorcerer 3
4. Bard 2                 / Sorcerer 4
5. Bard 3                 / Sorcerer 5
6. Paladin* 1            / Sorcerer 6
7. War Weaver 1       / Sorcerer 7
8. Marshall 1             / War Weaver 2
9. Paladin 2               / War Weaver 3
10. Bard 4                 / War Weaver 4
11. Bard 5                 / War Weaver 5
12. Fatemaker 1         / Sorcerer 8
13. Bard 6                 / Mind Bender 1
14. Bard 7                 / Fatespinner 1
15. Bard 8                 / Fatespinner 2
16. Bard 9                 / Fatespinner 3
17. Bard 10                / Fatespinner 4
18. Magical Trickster 1 / Sorcerer 9
19. Bard 11                / Magical Trickster 2
20. Bard 12                / Magical Trickster 3

*UA Paladin of Freedom

Hadn't thought much about feats although Melodic Casting is a given. Was thinking about Celestial Familiar for a Coure Eladrin.

As pointed out by Cru (on WotC) I need Enlarge Spell to get into War Weaver

Other Possible Feats:
Versatile Spell Caster - that's the one that allows you to use two lower level slots to cast a higher level spell right?
Snowflake Wardance - not that I really see this character in melee
Weapon Finesse - ditto
Nymph's Kiss -
Words of Creation -
Improved Flight - perfect manoeuvrability is always a plus.

Skills
Obviously perform skills
the Cha based social skills
Skill tricks?

I would like suggestions for improving this build. Other classes, races, feats (and flaws), equipment....

(Cross Post from WotC)

Caelic

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Re: Gestalt Charisma Caster
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2009, 12:04:22 PM »
Why not a dip into Sublime Chord, and then apply the various prestige classes on that side of the equation?

Or, heck, Fochlucan Lyrist--in Gestalt, you can actually meet the requirements without excruciating pain.

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Re: Gestalt Charisma Caster
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2009, 12:08:57 PM »
Or, heck, Fochlucan Lyrist--in Gestalt, you can actually meet the requirements without excruciating pain.
In gestalt, dual-progression classes are not allowed. ;)
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Rebel7284

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Re: Gestalt Charisma Caster
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2009, 01:05:55 PM »
Can you take more LA?

Phrenic Half-Fey Unseelie Fey Human (or Star Elf for more Cha) (LA +4)
Alternatively Primordial Half Giant Half Fey Unseelie Fey (LA +3)

1 LA/Sorcerer Widen Spell, Versatile Spellcaster
2 LA/Sorcerer
3 LA/Sorcerer Heighten Spell
4 LA/Sorcerer
5 War Weaver/Sorcerer
6 War Weaver/XX
7 War Weaver/XX
8 War Weaver/XX
9 War Weaver/Bard
10 Virtuoso/Sorcerer
11 Sublime Chord/Sorcerer
12 Sublime Chord/Sorcerer
13 Mindbender/Sorcerer
14+ Virtuoso or Fatespinner/Sorcerer

2x 9th level casting is nice as is song of arcane power.

For feats, Magic in the Blood gives you all your 1/day spell likes as 3/day.  It should apply to Phrenic too I believe. 
Mindsight is certainly a must.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 01:25:46 PM by Rebel7284 »
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Caelic

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Re: Gestalt Charisma Caster
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2009, 01:24:01 PM »
Or, heck, Fochlucan Lyrist--in Gestalt, you can actually meet the requirements without excruciating pain.
In gestalt, dual-progression classes are not allowed. ;)

Right, right--I never use gestalt rules myself.

Still, Sublime Chord seems like a good option.  No reason NOT to get up to 9th level spellcasting on both sides.

Jedda

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Re: Gestalt Charisma Caster
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2009, 01:50:07 PM »
I like that build Rebel7284. Phrenic is a great call. However I do need to clarify a few things.

Star Elf is a forgotten realms race, right? Answered own question - yes, in Unapproachable East
Where can Unseelie fey as a race/template be found?
Where is the feat 'Magic in the blood' found?

I'm told it's enlarge spell for War Weaver qualification
How are you getting 3rd level spells with 4 levels of Sorcerer, does one or other of the spell/psilikes count?
« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 03:31:14 PM by Jedda »

Negative Zero

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Re: Gestalt Charisma Caster
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2009, 03:28:32 PM »
Unseelie Fey is a +0LA template in Dragon Compendium. 'Always Evil' is a bit annoying, though.

On another note, might I point out the Petal (MM3). It has LA 2 (Cohort), but it is an excellent choice if your DM will allow it, even if he ratchets the LA up to 3. +8 Cha and +10 Dex are the highlights.

Jedda

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Re: Gestalt Charisma Caster
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2009, 03:33:30 PM »
Thanks.

Rebel7284

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Re: Gestalt Charisma Caster
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2009, 04:25:21 PM »
I like that build Rebel7284. Phrenic is a great call. However I do need to clarify a few things.

Star Elf is a forgotten realms race, right? Answered own question - yes, in Unapproachable East
Where can Unseelie fey as a race/template be found?
Where is the feat 'Magic in the blood' found?

I'm told it's enlarge spell for War Weaver qualification
How are you getting 3rd level spells with 4 levels of Sorcerer, does one or other of the spell/psilikes count?


Enlarge/Widen, oops, whatever.

I'm getting 3rd Level spells from the combination of Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten Spell.  Casting a Heightened 2nd level spell by expanding 2 2nd level slots.  It's a very popular early entry loophole and one of the harder ones to disprove as the example in the feat itself I believe allows you to use it to apply metamagic.

Magic in the Blood is in PGtoF, p. 40 according to google.
edit: seems like you may need to be an elf to take this one.  No biggie, be a star elf and ask your DM if you can use Flaws for early entry anyway.
edit2: and then buy an amulet of health, ouch at that Con penalty.  Or become undead. :)
« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 04:30:23 PM by Rebel7284 »
Negative level on a chicken would make it a wight the next day.  Chicken the other wight meat. -borg286

Jedda

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Re: Gestalt Charisma Caster
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2009, 04:33:04 PM »
And so the newbie is enlightened...

Thank you.

The levels you marked XXX could reasonably be Paladin of Freedom 2 / Marshall 1 so this would get Cha to saves and handy minor aura (motivate dex??)

Rebel7284

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Re: Gestalt Charisma Caster
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2009, 04:41:56 PM »
And so the newbie is enlightened...

Thank you.

The levels you marked XXX could reasonably be Paladin of Freedom 2 / Marshall 1 so this would get Cha to saves and handy minor aura (motivate dex??)

Might have to be paladin of slaughter if you go with Unseelie Fey, but yeah, reasonable.  I do wonder if the overcoming SR aura or the motivate charisma aura for skills may be better, but initiative is pretty damn important so it's probably a better choice for a caster.
Negative level on a chicken would make it a wight the next day.  Chicken the other wight meat. -borg286

Jedda

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Re: Gestalt Charisma Caster
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2009, 04:50:02 PM »
It is a pain about the unseelie fey thing, I've just looked them up and they are very sweet. I also note the seelie fey has a +1 LA and no fixed allignment which seems odd to me.

Rebel7284

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Re: Gestalt Charisma Caster
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2009, 05:01:12 PM »
It is a pain about the unseelie fey thing, I've just looked them up and they are very sweet. I also note the seelie fey has a +1 LA and no fixed allignment which seems odd to me.

Actually skimming the Seelie Fey, it seems to not have a LA at all.. it has +1 CR but LA -- (making it unplayable) strange indeed.

Anyway, for Unseelie Fey, winter chill makes your short range spells pretty much irresistible especially after taking fatespinner to reroll the enemy natural 20s. :)
« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 05:03:06 PM by Rebel7284 »
Negative level on a chicken would make it a wight the next day.  Chicken the other wight meat. -borg286

woodenbandman

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Re: Gestalt Charisma Caster
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2009, 09:04:56 PM »
If you can manage 19 wisdom, Spirit shaman is great. It's basically druid casting. Also, Favored Soul for divine casting, all good saves, and various combat bonuses.

As a placeholder for bard, you could throw in some Crusader or Warblade, along with Song of the White Raven (added bonus of swift action bardic music). Even a single level of Crusader is very useful for this, and the stances aren't bad either. Swift action bardic music + move action buffs + standard action whatever you want = win.

Pixie would be a good race for this. The DR and crap are really useful. Jermaline? Don't they get charisma and wisdom bonuses out the butt?

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Re: Gestalt Charisma Caster
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2009, 01:25:25 AM »
With the emphasis in Rebel7284's build - which the OP apparently likes - on Unseelie Fey, would Wild Soul (CM p. 85) be a reasonable fit for the last 10 levels instead of Sorcerer?  The prereqs are virtually auto-filled.  Lose one CL in order to increase versatility by a fair margin and built-in increases to Enchantment/Illusion DCs.
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Rebel7284

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Re: Gestalt Charisma Caster
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2009, 02:18:13 AM »
With the emphasis in Rebel7284's build - which the OP apparently likes - on Unseelie Fey, would Wild Soul (CM p. 85) be a reasonable fit for the last 10 levels instead of Sorcerer?  The prereqs are virtually auto-filled.  Lose one CL in order to increase versatility by a fair margin and built-in increases to Enchantment/Illusion DCs.

Well you can't really do _instead_ of sorcerer as only one prestige class at a time is allowed.  You CAN use wild soul to advance Sublime Chord assuming you  take level 1 of Wild Soul earlier like I do with Virtuoso.

Frankly, I think that Wild Soul while having superior flavor is mechanically weak (and doesn't progress bardic music).  However, the build is ridiculously strong regardless so some power sacrifice for flavor is acceptable.
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Re: Gestalt Charisma Caster
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2009, 04:09:30 AM »
Might as well pick up the magic-blooded template as well.  +2 cha, -2 wis, a couple slas, LA + 0 template

Also, note that "always" explicitly doesn't actually mean "each and every member of the race" in terms of alignment descriptions... chalk it up to WotC waffling
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 04:13:47 AM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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Jedda

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Re: Gestalt Charisma Caster
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2009, 07:39:23 AM »
Sunshine
CG, Half-Fey Phrenic Magic-Blooded Star Elf
+2 Dex, -4 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +12 Cha.

5. War Weaver 1 / Sorcerer 5
6. Marshall 1 / War Weaver 2: Skill Focus (Diplomacy) bonus, Nymph's Kiss
7. Paladin of Freedom 1/ War Weaver 3
8. Paladin of Freedom 2/ War Weaver 4
9. Bard 1 / War Weaver 5: Melodic Casting
10. Virtuoso 1 / Sorcerer 6
11. Sublime Chord 1 / Sorcerer 7
12. Sublime Chord 2 / Sorcerer 8: Celestial Familiar
13. Sublime Chord 3 / Sorcerer 9
14. Sublime Chord 4 / Sorcerer 10
15. Sublime Chord 5 / Sorcerer 11: Words of Creation
16. Sublime Chord 6 / Sorcerer 12
17. Fatespinner 1 / Sorcerer 13
18. Fatespinner 2 / Sorcerer 14: (FEAT)
19. Fatespinner 3 / Sorcerer 15
20. Fatespinner 4 / Sorcerer 16

Shadow
CE, Unseelie Half-Fey Phrenic Magic-Blooded Star Elf
-2 Str, +4 Dex, -6 Con, +2 Int , +14 Cha

5. War Weaver 1 / Sorcerer 5
6. Marshall 1 / Mind Bender 1: Skill Focus (Diplomacy) bonus, Mindsight
7. Paladin of Slaughter 1 / War Weaver 2
8. Paladin of Slaughter 2 / War Weaver 3
9. Bard 1 / War Weaver 4: Melodic Casting
10. Virtuoso 1/ Sorcerer 6
11. Sublime Chord 1 / Sorcerer 7
12. Sublime Chord 2 / Sorcerer 8: (FEAT)
13. War Weaver 5 / Sorcerer 9
14. Virtuoso 2 / Sorcerer 10
15. Virtuoso 3 / Sorcerer 11: (FEAT)
16. Virtuoso 4 / Sorcerer 12
17. Virtuoso 5 / Sorcerer 13
18. Virtuoso 6 / Sorcerer 14: (FEAT)
19. Virtuoso 7 / Sorcerer 15
20. Fatespinner 1 / Sorcerer 16

This seems to be the magic dominant build out of this idea. The ToB suggestion is very interesting woodenbandman, I think there's a more martial build there, a song and dance routine that also slices and dices...

I'm still after equipment suggestions, feat suggestions, etc


« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 07:27:22 AM by Jedda »

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Gestalt Charisma Caster
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2009, 08:39:50 AM »
Shadow might as well acquire the LA+1 shadow-walker template at some point.  Decent level-scaling SLAs, but the -2 con +2 dex might not be worth it... unless you become undead, of course, in which case I will continue to pimp the ghost savage progression.
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Re: Gestalt Charisma Caster
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2009, 08:59:22 AM »
With the emphasis in Rebel7284's build - which the OP apparently likes - on Unseelie Fey, would Wild Soul (CM p. 85) be a reasonable fit for the last 10 levels instead of Sorcerer?  The prereqs are virtually auto-filled.  Lose one CL in order to increase versatility by a fair margin and built-in increases to Enchantment/Illusion DCs.

Well you can't really do _instead_ of sorcerer as only one prestige class at a time is allowed.  You CAN use wild soul to advance Sublime Chord assuming you  take level 1 of Wild Soul earlier like I do with Virtuoso.

Frankly, I think that Wild Soul while having superior flavor is mechanically weak (and doesn't progress bardic music).  However, the build is ridiculously strong regardless so some power sacrifice for flavor is acceptable.
Good point; I forgot the 'one prestige class at a time' limitation.  Oops.
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