Author Topic: PHB II Druids: Shapeshifters  (Read 3021 times)

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thrasher2005

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PHB II Druids: Shapeshifters
« on: April 25, 2009, 09:44:07 PM »
Just pinging the idea out there, but is there anyone out there that has played this class feature (sacrifice wild shape and animal companion and gain specific forms ala WoW) and liked it?

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Re: PHB II Druids: Shapeshifters
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2009, 10:36:42 PM »
Haven't tried it personally, but from what I've heard it's less of a new option for Druids and more of a 'we screwed up so here's your problem patch' deal.
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Re: PHB II Druids: Shapeshifters
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2009, 01:14:52 AM »
Personally, I'd like it if it didn't discard the animal companion.
It's somewhat weaker than Wild Shape, but the removal of the hassle of finding an appropriate shape for a situation is nice, and the at will change even better.

Losing Wild Spell use was pretty obviously a patch though.
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Runestar

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Re: PHB II Druids: Shapeshifters
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2009, 02:04:06 AM »
It is very obviously a (much-needed) patch for druids.

Wotc didn't like the idea of druids being spellcasting tanks at the same time (and at lv8+, you will be in wildshape 24/7), so with shapeshift, you are either a caster, or a decent fighter, just not both simultaneously. Losing your animal companion and the ability to spontaneously summon is probably their way of preventing your druid from taking multiple actions (and possibly hogging the majority of the gaming time).

Natural spell doesn't work, nor does wild eq. You don't have to go through the hassle of recalculating your stats from scratch (since shapeshift simply adds on to your existing stats, rather than replace them altogether), so determining the effects in-game is faster. And nobody really knew what exactly wildshape granted anyways.

So yeah.  :p
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Re: PHB II Druids: Shapeshifters
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2009, 03:43:28 AM »
I think the Shapeshift alternative class ability is one of the best ideas ever implemented in the 3.5 system. I haven't had a chance to playtest it sadly but I just love the idea and would play such a Druid in a heartbeat. The lose of the animal companion is no loss at all to my mind. One less thing to track. Being able to assume a new physical form at will is just so iconic to me. The lack of a swimming or burrowing form is annoying. But overall this is a much better version of the Druid. Should I ever run another 3.5 campaign this will be the default Druid ability.

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Re: PHB II Druids: Shapeshifters
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2009, 06:39:12 AM »
I find it too drastic a step in the other direction. When you have 9th lvl spells (or 7th or 8th), why would you be willing to switch to a mediocre melee form? The forms hardly have any potential. If Natural Spell still worked, it would be worthwhile, but now it's not. (I'd rather Shapechange, or summon an Elemental/Animal that does the same thing as the form and keep on casting myself.)

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Re: PHB II Druids: Shapeshifters
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2009, 10:00:01 AM »
I find it too drastic a step in the other direction. When you have 9th lvl spells (or 7th or 8th), why would you be willing to switch to a mediocre melee form? The forms hardly have any potential. If Natural Spell still worked, it would be worthwhile, but now it's not. (I'd rather Shapechange, or summon an Elemental/Animal that does the same thing as the form and keep on casting myself.)
What aboout Shapeshift and an animal companion, but you trade spells for manouevers?

I think Shapeshift is pretty cool. Of course it's not as powerful as wildshape, but it's much easier to use.
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Runestar

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Re: PHB II Druids: Shapeshifters
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2009, 10:06:21 AM »
I am guessing it was geared towards low lv play, and as with most 3e material, the designers didn't really bother to playtest it at higher lvs to gauge its effectiveness.

At 1st lv, you can assume a wolf form at will, which makes you a passable fighter when you run out of spells (and you likely will, given you only have 2 slots/day). At 5th lv, your flight form makes you a decent scout (effectively 24/7 flight). But no more ariel-bomber shenanigans. At 8th lv, you can become a bear of sorts, but it seems really weak (you are averaging just ~34 damage/round, and this assumes all 3 attacks hit plus your foe has no dr). Even the elemental seems lackluster - you are attacking with 2 slams, each dealing 4d6+14-15 damage, before dr. But when you factor in the fact that enemies at this stage have around dr15/something, you are looking at a pitiful 30 damage each round. A hasted fighter easily deals 6-7 times that.

I am not sure if some of the changes to shapeshift were deliberate or not. For instance, their forms grant enhancement bonuses to your physical stats, meaning it won't stack with spells such as bite of X or even basic bull's str spells. In addition, druids will likely be boosting wis every chance they get, meaning their str will probably stagnate at 14. Overcoming dr is still an issue. Your AC is a crappy 35 (assume base10, +2dex, +16NA, +5barkskin, +4mage armour, -2size).

On the flip side, VOP never seemed so enticing.  :D

Maybe that is just that. The higher lv options are more flavour than practical.
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thrasher2005

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Re: PHB II Druids: Shapeshifters
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2009, 12:53:54 PM »
Your AC is a crappy 35 (assume base10, +2dex, +16NA, +5barkskin, +4mage armour, -2size).

On the flip side, VOP never seemed so enticing.  :D

Maybe that is just that. The higher lv options are more flavour than practical.

You forget the monk belt.

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Re: PHB II Druids: Shapeshifters
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2009, 01:24:33 PM »
I find it too drastic a step in the other direction. When you have 9th lvl spells (or 7th or 8th), why would you be willing to switch to a mediocre melee form? The forms hardly have any potential. If Natural Spell still worked, it would be worthwhile, but now it's not. (I'd rather Shapechange, or summon an Elemental/Animal that does the same thing as the form and keep on casting myself.)
It's not a fix for the broken-ness of high-level spells like Shapechange, it's a fix for Wildshape.

I like it, but I haven't playtested either. As pointed out, you don't have to wait for level 5-7 (no more using a crossbow or taking the backseat to your animal companion for 4-6 levels). And you can't dump physical stats anymore.
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GawainBS

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Re: PHB II Druids: Shapeshifters
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2009, 02:25:21 PM »
I am guessing it was geared towards low lv play, and as with most 3e material, the designers didn't really bother to playtest it at higher lvs to gauge its effectiveness.

At 1st lv, you can assume a wolf form at will, which makes you a passable fighter when you run out of spells (and you likely will, given you only have 2 slots/day). At 5th lv, your flight form makes you a decent scout (effectively 24/7 flight). But no more ariel-bomber shenanigans. At 8th lv, you can become a bear of sorts, but it seems really weak (you are averaging just ~34 damage/round, and this assumes all 3 attacks hit plus your foe has no dr). Even the elemental seems lackluster - you are attacking with 2 slams, each dealing 4d6+14-15 damage, before dr. But when you factor in the fact that enemies at this stage have around dr15/something, you are looking at a pitiful 30 damage each round. A hasted fighter easily deals 6-7 times that.

I am not sure if some of the changes to shapeshift were deliberate or not. For instance, their forms grant enhancement bonuses to your physical stats, meaning it won't stack with spells such as bite of X or even basic bull's str spells. In addition, druids will likely be boosting wis every chance they get, meaning their str will probably stagnate at 14. Overcoming dr is still an issue. Your AC is a crappy 35 (assume base10, +2dex, +16NA, +5barkskin, +4mage armour, -2size).

On the flip side, VOP never seemed so enticing.  :D

Maybe that is just that. The higher lv options are more flavour than practical.

This is my point exactly. Why would I even bother with this if I can keep casting spells, instead of becoming a watered down Fighter ( ! ) ? If the stat boosts were a competence bonus or something, then, maybe, just *maybe* it becomes worth. If you force people to take this, just remove Wildshape alltogether, and let
Druids keep their Animal Companions.

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Re: PHB II Druids: Shapeshifters
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2009, 02:42:47 PM »
Since your type doesn't change, you can be Enlarged, which boosts things a bit. Plus Improved Natural Attack.

I guess for me it isn't all about the mechanics with this ability, it's about the thematic style. I just love the idea of a shapeshifter that can do so at will.

While I love the Shapechange spell as a gamer, it really does seem broken. I think I would drop it in the next campaign I run.

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Re: PHB II Druids: Shapeshifters
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2009, 10:14:26 PM »
Quote
You forget the monk belt.

Your gear melds into your new form and becomes inactive. And I have never really liked the idea of removing and wearing my magic gear again. Plus, being able to shapeshift at-will seems to make this even more unfeasible. So the bulk of your stats will have to come from buff spells (no more bite of the werebear though).
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Re: PHB II Druids: Shapeshifters
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2009, 10:55:05 PM »
I find it too drastic a step in the other direction. When you have 9th lvl spells (or 7th or 8th), why would you be willing to switch to a mediocre melee form? The forms hardly have any potential. If Natural Spell still worked, it would be worthwhile, but now it's not. (I'd rather Shapechange, or summon an Elemental/Animal that does the same thing as the form and keep on casting myself.)

+1. I'd much rather Bite of the X + Shapechange. Hell, this makes a contemplative dip a good option in order to get access to the transformation domain (all polymorph spells).

The variant sucks too much, rather than sucking just enough.

I think that AC should go to ranger, and druid should keep their wild shape. Cleric already has their DMM which is practically a class feature now. Wizard has their crap... As long as thaumaturgist or something doesn't enter the equation, Cleric and druid should balance out.

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Re: PHB II Druids: Shapeshifters
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2009, 10:09:26 AM »
I think that is the whole idea.

If in your games, spellcasting elementals with complementary fighters are proving to be problematic, then shapeshift is the "patch" you need to power them down a notch to bring them more in line with the rest of the party. Granted, shapechange alone makes a mockery of trying to bridge the gap between them and fighters, but then that seems more an issue with certain 9th lv spells being overpowered as well.

Shapeshift was designed to balance out wildshape, not shapechange, after all.  :)
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Re: PHB II Druids: Shapeshifters
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2009, 01:12:19 PM »
One thing about the PHB2 version: they forgot to include aquatic forms (other than a water elemental).

The easiest fix is to probably make aquatic versions of the Perdetor and Ferocious Slayer forms, with swim speeds equal to the land speed of their equivalent form.  I suppose you could theoretically create an aquatic version of the plant form too...

You might want to modify the system a bit (or ask the DM to).

One thing is that your gear melds with you and becomes useless.  Personally, I'd have it meld, but allow any passive abilities to continue functioning.  So, for example, you'd still get a defelction bonus to AC for a Ring of Protection, a resistance bonus to saves for a Cloak of Resistance, and a boost to speed for Boots of Striding and Sprining, but you wouldn't be able to use any items that require any activation or manipulation.  This would rule out consumables, weapons, and some other items.

The reason I suggest this is per the normal ruling, the PC just strips off all useful gear, shapeshifts, and then puts it all back on.  I don't see anything that game breaking about this change.  Also, do note that the Str bonus from shapeshifting is an Enhancement bonus, so you can't stack it with Str-buffing items.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2009, 01:17:10 PM by RobbyPants »
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thrasher2005

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Re: PHB II Druids: Shapeshifters
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2009, 02:12:12 PM »
My DM has said that any enhancement bonuses or latent magical effects would still be in effect. Therefore, a periphat of wisdom, monk belt, or gloves of dexterity, bear's endurance etc would still be active for the duration (if any).

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Re: PHB II Druids: Shapeshifters
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2009, 03:46:44 PM »
My DM has said that any enhancement bonuses or latent magical effects would still be in effect. Therefore, a periphat of wisdom, monk belt, or gloves of dexterity, bear's endurance etc would still be active for the duration (if any).

Just replacing Wildshape with Shapeshift and keeping Natural Spell, Animal Companion and changing the bonus to something else, is a lowering in power. The greatest advantage of Wildshape is that it replaces your physical stats, instead of increasing them.
In short, I agree with your DM. :)
« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 08:36:33 AM by GawainBS »

veekie

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Re: PHB II Druids: Shapeshifters
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2009, 11:11:07 PM »
My DM has said that any enhancement bonuses or latent magical effects would still be in effect. Therefore, a periphat of wisdom, monk belt, or gloves of dexterity, bear's endurance etc would still be active for the duration (if any).

Just replacing Wildshape with Shapeshift and keeping Natural Spell, Animal Companion and changing to bonus to something else, is a lowering in power. The greatest advantage of Wildshape is that it replaces your physical stats, instead of increasing them.
In short, I agree with your DM. :)
I like that option too, mostly because it's easier to apply.
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Re: PHB II Druids: Shapeshifters
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2009, 07:27:56 PM »
I like the Aspect of Nature variant from UA. The feel, anyway. Mechanically it's balls. Perhaps a fix is in order?