GM Problem, the RPer, the Whiner, Optimisation level -?

[Takanaki]

Anyhoo...

Session ended up going fine this time, perhaps only on account of the hideous rolls of my NPCs though. It doesn't much matter anymore though, whatever will be will be. We've decided not to complain to this guy anymore and let him come to realise things himself or quit.

Now on to the battle report.

Teleported into a fort, they got inside and realised they weren't in the world they're from but in a very similar world in the starship troopers universe. Colonel... Sanders xD was there to enlist them on the spot, despite their weirdness and get them to fight (or be shot) and they happily obliged.

After some cleric buffs and one or two natural twenties every round from NPC gun emplacements barely any bugs broke into the compound, the cleric even messed up my flamethrowing bug with a shape stone spell so it had to fight from outside rather than tunneling in = (

Two to three hundred bugs and a flamer bug later they had a while to rest, their pickup would be there to take them to fleet command in ten hours. Nine hours and a half later, the bugs attacked, naturally.

Plasma bugs were providing anti-air with pretty failtastic results, only killing a handful of marines on their way out. By the time the bugs broke into the central compound there were only two transports left to go, twelve marines and then the final four or five along with our group of four. Before the first gunship arrived four burrowers attacked, then between that one leaving and the final one coming there was a gargantuan flamer and another normalish sized one (they were huge or so).

No players died, freedom of movement and lotsa healing spells from the cleric combined with some horrid saving throws for my monsters meant they cleaned house with ... well they were battered and bruised. But then it was off to one of the fleet dreadnaughts for hookers, booze and cigars. They got to learn a bit about the universe, rest, have a 'heroes feast' effect from the party. Then they got deployed back into the thick of things after that, in their drop pod they ended going through a rift and back into their own world.

I told them to roll a d20 for where they ended up, higher is worse... 18, I offered them the option to keep it or reroll. They got a thirteen, ended up in one of the harsher places in the world and to cut a long story short. They got chased out by 91 horse mounted knight types and had to teleport over an ocean back to 'safety' aka: the barbarian wilderness on the other size of the sea.

[Samb]

Being nice clearly hasn't worked, so what's wrong with calling him on his BS? Because we're afraid to hurt his feelings?

It has nothing to do with hurting his feelings, it is using a method that might get through to him.

I'm allergic.

Or just have a superiority complex

Were you the kind of person who never got enough as a kid, who was always passed over in favor of others, and is therefore afraid of seeing anyone else not get enough and have their feelings hurt? Feel a desire to watch out for the less fortunates who remind you of yourself and make things right for them?

Well life wasn't too great for me so I guess you could say I was unfortunate.  And yes I do feel the need to help these less fortunate than myself.  Were you trying to insult me?

I object to inferior people getting it.

Starting to support my theory that you have a e-superiority complex.  Let me guess, you voted for McCain?  You want to get rid of welfare and medicare right?  Bet you're against nation wide insurance for children too.  Damn kids never contribute to society until 18 years in the future!

Your friends aren't, I wager, jerks. This makes you willing to help them and have mutual fun.

No my friends are cool peoples, but they still sucked at soul calibur.  I gave them a handicap because winning all time is hardily a challenge against noobs, and if they lose too much i would lose a friend to play soul calibur with.

Also, in a pvp game, if one person just sucks, there's no harm done, but when in a party, that one person has a role he needs to fill, and if he sucks there, the party may have a problem.

My point was to try everything.  If he won't take advice on improvement, then force it on him.  If he still doesn't take kindly to it then leave him alone.

Some people take help when offered, others need it forced on them, then some others just want to left alone.  The whiner on topic seems to be the latter.  Tough love has its uses but you need to know when to just leave things alone.  Kind of like that sore throat analogy you used.

This is a game, and people play to have fun.  I'm a Christan and I have my own set of principles.  Yet I no qualms playing a cleric that worships some pagan god.  Why? Because its fun, and its not real.  All your talk about principles is just a cover-up for your own insecurities, this is all make-believe anyway, why get your panties in a knot?

[Solo]

Takanaki, didn't you ask for this thread to be locked earlier?

It has nothing to do with hurting his feelings, it is using a method that might get through to him.

Clearly hasn't so far.

Well life wasn't too great for me so I guess you could say I was unfortunate.  And yes I do feel the need to help these less fortunate than myself.  Were you trying to insult me?

I was pointing out that psychoanalysis over the internet is stupid, because it will be pointless and inaccurate.

Starting to support my theory that you have a e-superiority complex.

Sure thing, Dr. Freud.

  Let me guess, you voted for McCain? You want to get rid of welfare and medicare right? Bet you're against nation wide insurance for children too.  Damn kids never contribute to society until 18 years in the future!

Not only is there no point to this portion of your post, but I find that Girl Scouts contribute wonderfully to society, what with the cookies and whatnot.

This is a game, and people play to have fun.  I'm a Christan and I have my own set of principles.  Yet I no qualms playing a cleric that worships some pagan god.  Why? Because its fun, and its not real.

1. Things that go on *in* a game are make believe and should not be taken seriously. However, giving the PC rewards affects things outside of the game as well, such as interpersonal relationships.

All your talk about principles is just a cover-up for your own insecurities,

Dear non-existent gods, why bother getting a degree in psychology anymore when any 16 year old with an internet connection can Wikipedia the necessary knowledge?

By the way, you really need to stop projecting. This reaction-formation defense mechanism is working against you. Etc, etc.

this is all make-believe anyway, why get your panties in a knot?

I find your phraseology sexist and offensive.

[Samb]

Anyhoo...

Session ended up going fine this time, perhaps only on account of the hideous rolls of my NPCs though. It doesn't much matter anymore though, whatever will be will be. We've decided not to complain to this guy anymore and let him come to realise things himself or quit.

Now on to the battle report.

Teleported into a fort, they got inside and realised they weren't in the world they're from but in a very similar world in the starship troopers universe. Colonel... Sanders xD was there to enlist them on the spot, despite their weirdness and get them to fight (or be shot) and they happily obliged.

After some cleric buffs and one or two natural twenties every round from NPC gun emplacements barely any bugs broke into the compound, the cleric even messed up my flamethrowing bug with a shape stone spell so it had to fight from outside rather than tunneling in = (

Two to three hundred bugs and a flamer bug later they had a while to rest, their pickup would be there to take them to fleet command in ten hours. Nine hours and a half later, the bugs attacked, naturally.

Plasma bugs were providing anti-air with pretty failtastic results, only killing a handful of marines on their way out. By the time the bugs broke into the central compound there were only two transports left to go, twelve marines and then the final four or five along with our group of four. Before the first gunship arrived four burrowers attacked, then between that one leaving and the final one coming there was a gargantuan flamer and another normalish sized one (they were huge or so).

No players died, freedom of movement and lotsa healing spells from the cleric combined with some horrid saving throws for my monsters meant they cleaned house with ... well they were battered and bruised. But then it was off to one of the fleet dreadnaughts for hookers, booze and cigars. They got to learn a bit about the universe, rest, have a 'heroes feast' effect from the party. Then they got deployed back into the thick of things after that, in their drop pod they ended going through a rift and back into their own world.

I told them to roll a d20 for where they ended up, higher is worse... 18, I offered them the option to keep it or reroll. They got a thirteen, ended up in one of the harsher places in the world and to cut a long story short. They got chased out by 91 horse mounted knight types and had to teleport over an ocean back to 'safety' aka: the barbarian wilderness on the other size of the sea.

Is this Aliens d20?  Starcraft d20?  Anyway, glad to see you got your minions under control.  I wonder if you don't give yourself enough credit, maybe it was your WTF plot twist and encounter design that made the difference?  Anyway keep it up.

[Takanaki]

It's DnD 3.5, I DM the same world here in the campaign 'Parsing Gnomes.' Basically a world in which rifts between realities have been occuring since the past two years, a world with a continent surrounded by violent oceans that no amount of magic or scrying would allow a person to see or travel beyond. Now the seas calm, raiders from another continent elsewhere are rumoured of and strange things visit into the world, going places where they shouldn't be. Out in the wilderness where few people are around to held tie reality together... or whatever explanation you want to give. I'm not going to spoil my fun by telling anyone what might be... or might not be : p

[Eepop]

I only read about 50% of the thread, but I thought I would suggest a couple options that are a little off the wall:

1) Accept his premise.  Run a short campaign where everyone accepts his premise that you need to be weak to roleplay.  Run it for 4 sessions or so.  Hopefully you will all like that method of play, or he will understand the Stormwind Fallacy firsthand when no one else really roleplays more than they did when they were optimized.

2) Give him additional levels to play with over the rest of the group.  While his Begulier 3/swashbuckler 3 may not compare favorably to an optimized Wizard 6, a Beguiler 5/Swashbuckler5 might.  This lets him play the concept he wants, and boosts his power up closer to the rest of the party.

3) Introduce him to another game that is more RP centric like Spirit of the Century or Burning Wheel.  Maybe spin off a separate group that plays that.  Whatever group is gathered to play needs to be playing the same game.  Its entirely possible that 3.5 just isn't a game that he really wants to play.

4) Try 4E.  The gap between unoptimized and optimized is a lot less severe than 3.5E

[McPoyo]

4) Try 4E.  The gap between unoptimized and optimized is a lot less severe than 3.5E

I have to infinitely disagree here on this one. While the difference between optimized and unoptimized characters is smaller, optimized parties play an much larger role, with much greater importance. Optimization is still a needed skill, but bringing someone into the game who cannot contribute meaningfully to his existing 3.5 party into a 4e game where party optimization and teamwork are much more important isn't going to fly at all.

[Eepop]

In my 4E group we have someone who isn't really much of an optimizer.  He made several suboptimal choices for some characters he ran, and the group still did just fine. Group optimization is powerful, but its not going to end the game if one person isn't optimal.

[Sinfire Titan]

In my 4E group we have someone who isn't really much of an optimizer.  He made several suboptimal choices for some characters he ran, and the group still did just fine. Group optimization is powerful, but its not going to end the game if one person isn't optimal.

For the record, my 4E group has 3 people. One of them is a complete noob, and in a bad way. He doesn't have his powers down yet (we need to get the power cards for his Ranger, or else we're going to get killed), and this has held us down many times (thankfully, when we tell him to use a Daily or an Encounter, he does use it).

His tactics are poor, and have cost my Paladin a number of Healing Surges to cover his mistakes. Our Swordmage has noted this, and does his best to pull enemies into strategical disadvantages (Lightning Lure is some broken).

The most recent encounters were 10 Fire Beetles (we're ECL 3) and 3 Chokers. Against the beetles, we had to talk the DM into turn into Minions in order for us to even survive (half of them beat my Init of 24, and blasted us with their fire breath). Against the Chokers, the only reason the Ranger even lived was because the Swordmage found out that his Lightning Lure could end a grab (of course, this saved my Pally too).

It's come down to the Ranger taking orders from either the Swordmage or myself in order for us to keep alive. It's not just the DM (who has a very poor grasp of our optimization levels), his tactics put him in danger and force us to work around him. It's become a liability.

[veekie]

4) Try 4E.  The gap between unoptimized and optimized is a lot less severe than 3.5E

I have to infinitely disagree here on this one. While the difference between optimized and unoptimized characters is smaller, optimized parties play an much larger role, with much greater importance. Optimization is still a needed skill, but bringing someone into the game who cannot contribute meaningfully to his existing 3.5 party into a 4e game where party optimization and teamwork are much more important isn't going to fly at all.

Besides, this guy sounds like he'd screw up the all important stat distribution anyway, by sinking his allotment into half dozen stats at once...