Author Topic: 4th Edition PDFs leaked  (Read 12872 times)

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AlienFromBeyond

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4th Edition PDFs leaked
« on: May 28, 2008, 02:39:16 AM »
So uh, are we allowed to discuss them so long as we don't say where to obtain them?

dirkformica

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Re: 4th Edition PDFs leaked
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2008, 02:51:13 AM »
The actual books have shipped to those who ordered from buy.com.  I have also heard that some Amazon.com orders have shipped early as well. 

So does anyone on these boards already have the books?

AlienFromBeyond

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Re: 4th Edition PDFs leaked
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2008, 02:59:56 AM »
The actual books have shipped to those who ordered from buy.com.  I have also heard that some Amazon.com orders have shipped early as well. 

So does anyone on these boards already have the books?
I uh, "have" them if you know what I mean.

Quick read through, there's obviously not as many choices for optimization, but it is only the core books alone. The best part to look at for it though seems to be multiclassing. While I don't think giving up your paragon path for some extra powers is worth it, taking a feat to get training in a skill, an ability of that class, and being able to qualify for feats and paragon paths of that class is damn nice. Also, Kobolds are so awesome.

yellerSumner

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Re: 4th Edition PDFs leaked
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2008, 03:13:58 AM »
Quick read through, there's obviously not as many choices for optimization, but it is only the core books alone.
  Okay, so how does it compare to the 3.5 core alone?  More or fewer options?

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Re: 4th Edition PDFs leaked
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2008, 03:21:25 AM »
So uh, are we allowed to discuss them so long as we don't say where to obtain them?
The reason why you don't want to say where you got them is to avoid getting you and the people you got them from in trouble. 

I have had a pre release copy of the rules for 5 months but could not say anything until last week.  When I talked about it I had to make sure it was on public information.

Go ahead and talk about the game, just don't post any download sites, even in PMs on this site.  It is a pain to deal with that kind of stuff. 
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LogicNinja

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Re: 4th Edition PDFs leaked
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2008, 03:52:40 AM »
Yeah, people have officially gotten the game. Which means the stuff is public knowledge.


There's plenty of room to optimize. There's plenty of room with powers, with multiclassing, etc. There's especially room for optimizing groups that work together well.

I'm disappointed that they barely nerfed Wall of Fire at all and didn't touch Wall of Ice. Surround someone with the Wall of Ice and just watch the damage rack up; the Wall of Fire can do a crapload of damage if you surround an enemy with it and have you and allies push them back in when they get out.

(There's also a couple mistakes. One of the cleric L23 Encounter powers is *exactly like* one of the cleric L27 Encounter powers... only with an additional bonus.)

X-Codes

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Re: 4th Edition PDFs leaked
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2008, 05:01:22 AM »
I'm disappointed that they barely nerfed Wall of Fire at all and didn't touch Wall of Ice. Surround someone with the Wall of Ice and just watch the damage rack up; the Wall of Fire can do a crapload of damage if you surround an enemy with it and have you and allies push them back in when they get out.
Wall of Ice didn't do significant damage in 3.5, about 80% of it can be explained as a level lower than Wall of Stone and weak against Fire attacks, so I don't know where you're getting the idea that it racks up damage in 4.0.

Wall of Fire also didn't do a lot of damage unless you followed the same kinda idea you posted, and if the whole party is having fun volleying the enemies through a wall of fire once per day then I don't see the problem.

LogicNinja

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Re: 4th Edition PDFs leaked
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2008, 06:28:50 AM »
I'm disappointed that they barely nerfed Wall of Fire at all and didn't touch Wall of Ice. Surround someone with the Wall of Ice and just watch the damage rack up; the Wall of Fire can do a crapload of damage if you surround an enemy with it and have you and allies push them back in when they get out.
Wall of Ice didn't do significant damage in 3.5, about 80% of it can be explained as a level lower than Wall of Stone and weak against Fire attacks, so I don't know where you're getting the idea that it racks up damage in 4.0.
In 4E it's higher level than Wall of Fire. It does 2d6+INT damage to anyone who starts their turn adjacent to it. Hitting it does 2d6 damage to you, and each square has 50 HP. The wall does have Fire Vulnerability 25... but that means you have to be able to do 25 fire damage in one round to get through a square in one round. That's not something most opponents have!
So, when you surround someone with a Wall of Ice, they take *at a minimum* 4d6+INT damage. Guaranteed. Meanwhile Blast of Cold (another Wiz L15 Daily) does 6d6+INT on a hit, half on a miss. Sure, it's Blast 5, but you can put the wall so it does 2d6+INT to a few other enemies too.
The thing is, that 4d6+INT is way lower than it's actually gonna do. Realistically, it'll take enemies two, three hits to bust through the 50-HP square... and if they get through on the third round, you just did 12d6+3*INT damage to them, with no attack roll or *anything*.

Quote
Wall of Fire also didn't do a lot of damage unless you followed the same kinda idea you posted, and if the whole party is having fun volleying the enemies through a wall of fire once per day then I don't see the problem.
It does, at a *minimum*, 4d6+2*INT. That's at level 9.  A single Push 1 power will make that 5d6+2*INT. A push 2 power will make that 7d6+3*INT.

Meanwhile, other powers are doing, what, 2d8, and that's on a successful hit?

X-Codes

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Re: 4th Edition PDFs leaked
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2008, 07:23:53 AM »
In 4E it's higher level than Wall of Fire. It does 2d6+INT damage to anyone who starts their turn adjacent to it. Hitting it does 2d6 damage to you, and each square has 50 HP. The wall does have Fire Vulnerability 25... but that means you have to be able to do 25 fire damage in one round to get through a square in one round. That's not something most opponents have!
So, when you surround someone with a Wall of Ice, they take *at a minimum* 4d6+INT damage. Guaranteed. Meanwhile Blast of Cold (another Wiz L15 Daily) does 6d6+INT on a hit, half on a miss. Sure, it's Blast 5, but you can put the wall so it does 2d6+INT to a few other enemies too.
The thing is, that 4d6+INT is way lower than it's actually gonna do. Realistically, it'll take enemies two, three hits to bust through the 50-HP square... and if they get through on the third round, you just did 12d6+3*INT damage to them, with no attack roll or *anything*.
Thats assuming a lot.  If the enemy has any sort of teleportation they can teleport out.  If they have any sort of fire attack, especially if it's a ranged attack, then the damage is substantially less.  If they have another creature come and help, then the damage is going to get spread out.  For a daily power, it will actually deal significantly less damage than other daily powers.  Also remember, even assuming that the Int bonus involved is +7 (probably a little high), 12d6+3*INT is, on average, 63 damage.  Soldiers and Brutes of about level 5 and higher can survive that.  Against Elites, that will maybe knock off a third of their HP, probably less.

The only real purpose I see to that spell is to block off an escape route, since escaping monsters will obviously be weakened by attacks they'll likely kill themselves on the Wall of Ice before they escape.  Surrounding a monster with it may "rack up the damage," but in practical terms it's still a severely sub-par use of a precious daily power.
Quote
It does, at a *minimum*, 4d6+2*INT. That's at level 9.  A single Push 1 power will make that 5d6+2*INT. A push 2 power will make that 7d6+3*INT.

Meanwhile, other powers are doing, what, 2d8, and that's on a successful hit?
Again.  For a daily power that's just not significant unless you have powers that Push/Shift at will or a large number of encounter powers in the party that Push/Shift.  A combination of powers does not make one power of the group overpowered, it merely identifies the people that put together that combination of powers somewhat intelligent.

Also, the power that does 2d8 is Acid Arrow.  A Wiz 1 Daily power.  I can maybe see an Encounter power doing 2d8 on a sucessful hit, since that would tend to be 2x weapon damage AFAIK.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: 4th Edition PDFs leaked
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2008, 10:38:54 AM »
In 5 minutes I will begin perusing this to see the critical failure result for myself.

Is there a spell like Death Ward for negative levels and such, but warding against stat damage instead?
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heffroncm

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Re: 4th Edition PDFs leaked
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2008, 10:56:41 AM »
In 5 minutes I will begin perusing this to see the critical failure result for myself.

Is there a spell like Death Ward for negative levels and such, but warding against stat damage instead?

Um.  There is no stat damage.  Or negative levels  :D

Honestly, after reading the Classes and Feats chapters in detail, I'm thinking system mastery might have been written right out of Core 4e.  There is so little opportunity cost in each decision, so many options to change those decisions, and such a lack of 'suck' that making an effective character recquires no planning at all.  As you level, just go to the powers or feat you gain for that level and pick what sounds cool.  Each one has minimum effects on the rest of your abilities, so the amazing cascades of self-synergy that caused the uber builds of 3.x are not yet possible.

I'm looking forward to Martial Power and the Forgotten Realms books to hopefully add something for optimizers to do :P

Sunic_Flames

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Re: 4th Edition PDFs leaked
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2008, 11:18:46 AM »
My point was that I feel 4th edition may inflict Intelligence damage upon being read. I'm not sure if you got the joke or not.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

heffroncm

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Re: 4th Edition PDFs leaked
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2008, 11:22:44 AM »
My point was that I feel 4th edition may inflict Intelligence damage upon being read. I'm not sure if you got the joke or not.

Nope, didn't get it.  I don't feel especially dumber for having read it, and feel that it's actually a very well designed system.  Players actually have direction, ideas match up with execution, and the game doesn't penalize you for not having an associates in d&d character building.  I understand that good characters being easy to build and use is going to upset a lot of 3e folks, but I think it's rather nice.

pfooti

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Re: 4th Edition PDFs leaked
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2008, 11:26:29 AM »
I wouldn't say that 4e damaged my intelligence. Like I said in the other thread, it's not bad. I think there are two parallel discussions:
  • Is 4e necessary?
    • Is Hasbro/WotC being money-grubbing?
    • Were the big rules changes warranted?
  • Is 4e good?
    • Without thinking of 3.5/3e/2e/AD&D/redbox/chainmail in comparison, is 4e an interesting and flexible and powerful game system?
    • Can 4e be played for an extended period of time without getting boring?

I think we end up conflating the two. In particular: the question of switching from some other system to 4e is comparative: is it worth the time and money and effort to go 4e? The question about the game itself, OTOH, isn't. And I feel like, overall, 4e seems like an interesting and worthy game.

Optimization will take a while to sink in. I'm sure there are some sneaky combos already (LogicNinja mentioned the wall of ice trick), and future expansions will add more daily- and encounter- powers, only adding to the list of possible cross-book-unforseen-combo abuse.

But try and disentangle the two - keep the "is it any good" debate separate from the "is it better than 3.5?"

RobbyPants

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Re: 4th Edition PDFs leaked
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2008, 11:29:24 AM »
I'm disappointed that they barely nerfed Wall of Fire at all and didn't touch Wall of Ice. Surround someone with the Wall of Ice and just watch the damage rack up; the Wall of Fire can do a crapload of damage if you surround an enemy with it and have you and allies push them back in when they get out.
So, I know that they got rid of summoning, but do wizards have much in the way of crowd control?  Do they still have spells or equivalents of Evard's Black Tenticles, Web, Solid Fog, Glitterdust, and Grease?
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pfooti

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Re: 4th Edition PDFs leaked
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2008, 11:34:38 AM »
I'm disappointed that they barely nerfed Wall of Fire at all and didn't touch Wall of Ice. Surround someone with the Wall of Ice and just watch the damage rack up; the Wall of Fire can do a crapload of damage if you surround an enemy with it and have you and allies push them back in when they get out.
So, I know that they got rid of summoning, but do wizards have much in the way of crowd control?  Do they still have spells or equivalents of Evard's Black Tenticles, Web, Solid Fog, Glitterdust, and Grease?

Evard's is in, as is Web. There are a number of other, new spells that do X damage and immobilize creatures in an area. It's a theme for the wizard, it seems.

heffroncm

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Re: 4th Edition PDFs leaked
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2008, 11:41:06 AM »
I'm disappointed that they barely nerfed Wall of Fire at all and didn't touch Wall of Ice. Surround someone with the Wall of Ice and just watch the damage rack up; the Wall of Fire can do a crapload of damage if you surround an enemy with it and have you and allies push them back in when they get out.
So, I know that they got rid of summoning, but do wizards have much in the way of crowd control?  Do they still have spells or equivalents of Evard's Black Tenticles, Web, Solid Fog, Glitterdust, and Grease?

Evard's Black Tentacles damages and Immobilizes (save end) on a hit, creates a Zone of Difficult Terrain, and can be Sustained to do auto-damage to anything Immobilized and make a new attack on anything that is not Immobilized.  And it hits a 5x5 area within 10 squares.  It's pretty powerful crowd control, but not available until level 19 and is a daily.

Web is a Daily Burst 2 that on a hit Immobilizes.  It lasts until the end of the encounter or 5 minutes, creating a zone of difficult terrain that auto-immobilizes anything ending their in the web.  Save ends both immobilize effects.

No Solid Fog, but there is a Wall of Fog daily, fills 8 squares in a Wall, Sustain Minor, blocks LoS and grants Concealment.

No Grease or Glitterdust.

Most Encounter power crowd control spells last until the end of your next turn.  Orb wizards can prolong these effects.  A disabler-type wizard is still fully possible.

RobbyPants

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Re: 4th Edition PDFs leaked
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2008, 11:43:51 AM »
That's good to know.  One of the biggest things making me wonder if I even wanted 4E was that thought that wizards were simply becoming blasters...
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Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

heffroncm

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Re: 4th Edition PDFs leaked
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2008, 11:53:42 AM »
That's good to know.  One of the biggest things making me wonder if I even wanted 4E was that thought that wizards were simply becoming blasters...

Warlocks can do better AoE damage than Wizards with the right power seleciton.  Almost everything a Wizard can do carries some sort of debilitating penalty with it.

Runestar

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Re: 4th Edition PDFs leaked
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2008, 12:19:21 PM »
I know that certain monsters in the MM will be converted to PC races. How is this actually implemented? Are they just normal PHB style races with special racial feats, or some sort of 3e "savage progression"?

How close are they to the actual monsters themselves? I won't be getting 4e until a few more months at least (when my finances are not so tight), so I have no way of ascertaining myself.:(
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