Author Topic: The Devil Went Down to Georgia: The (Arbitrarily Large)th Level Spell Slot  (Read 7836 times)

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Tleilaxu_Ghola

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So, as I'm reading it, the crazy high level spell slot could still hold a super-metamagic'd up spell, as long as it wasn't Heighten Spell past what the casting modifier allowed (since only Heighten changes the actual spell level).  Is this correct?
You could metamagic the spell slot as high as you can go with various feats that qualify for the target spell.  That said, it still would be treated for all intents and purposes as spell of the level that the original spell is written as, unless the feat specifically states other wise (as is the case with Sanctum spell and Heighten spell).  So, as far as arbitrary spell levels go, yeah, I'm saying that this trick is non functional without the improved heighten spell epic metamagic feat.

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Also, any of the casters that know all the spells of their spell list once they cast them (ie Warmage, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer) could use this to "know" all the spells of a higher level than normal (by occupying the spell slot w/ first a Heightened 9th level slot, then 8th, then 7th...).  Might require Arcane Preparation, though, to make it stick (seems like a DM call).

Versatile Spellcaster could then access spells of a higher level by virtue of "knowing" those spells, making progression of those classes 1 spell level faster than a Wizard.
I want to say there's a limit on versatile spell caster as well, something like twice level, but I'm away from books.  It's an interesting work around, to be sure -- if you can get a high enough ability score.  The bottom line still is, whether you're using spell energy occupying lower level spell slots or a higher level spell slot, you need to have the requisite ability score to cast the spell level in question.  For low level characters, that can be somewhat limiting without going into TO cheese.

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There's the feat that lets you break up high level spell slots for multiple low-level ones in LEoF, I think.  This probably is the most abusive use.  EDIT: YES it IS...  Wizard 1st, no limit on the amount you break it down as long as it equals the total.  Does not require it to be used for Wizard spell slots...

That'll give you AL numbers of spell slots.  How about 15 million?
Interesting.  I'd really need to see the versatile spell caster feat description before I bought on to this scheme.  Even if it does work as predicted, you still cannot cast a spell of much higher level than 9th and you still need the appropriate ability score to do so.  That said, being able to fill out your spells known from a very low level and cast an arbitrary number of said known spells is nothing to be scoffed at.

awaken DM golem

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Arcane Flourish: AL Perform check.  According to the Epic uses, you can use this for Diplomacy ... Doable at level 1.


And blow out everyone's ear drums while yer at it.
Deaf Fanatics ... 20% chance of that super-spell failing.

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minor tangent (as usual)

Throughout the various Editions, the Draeden are supposedly about as strong as the gods.
Their tactic is to outlast the gods, by ~slumbering in the abyss, as abyssal layers.
Meanwhile, Demonic Lords pop out every now and then.
Clearly, some Draeden can create arbitrarily powerful new creatures, on occasion.
iirc - new creature creation was part of what pun-pun did to gain some of his ultimate power.
This might help.
This also might be what the Draeden will do, to beat the gods. An in game rules based How.

Tleilaxu_Ghola

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Yes, I have numerous sites telling me that the limit on versatile spell caster is the synthesis of two spell slots.  

EDIT: Even worse, actually.  You use these spell slots at the time of casting and you must expend two spell slots of level N to cast a spell of level N+1.  To even get spells to occupy those slots (assuming we're talking about low levels) you need to have sufficiently high ability level to gain the spells per day to fill slots of those levels.  Remember you need to have something to put in the slot -- just having it doesn't count.  Anyways, that means you can't use versatile spell caster to iteratively boot strap yourself up the ladder, as I thought you were implying.  No, you need to have the requisite ability score to cast at least 2 spells of level N-1 to cast spell at level N.




As for arcane manipulation:

Quote from: WotC Excerpt
Benefit: When you prepare spells, you can break down up to three existing arcane spell slots to create a specified number of lower-level spell slots. (A 0-level spell counts as 1/2 level for this purpose, so a 1st-level spell slot could be broken into two 0-level spell slots.) The sum of the levels of all the new spell slots must equal the level of the original. The number of spell slots you can create in this manner is otherwise unlimited. Spell slots that you break down into multiple lower-level slots remain that way until the next time you prepare spells, at which time you can choose to restore your spell slots to normal or break them up again.

The first clause (bolded) indicates (or at least very suggestively waggles its eyebrows) that the spell slots to be broken down are wizard spell slots.  Wizard spell slots cannot be used with versatile spell caster.  If you want to argue otherwise, we're heading into very shaky territory.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 06:42:12 PM by Tleilaxu_Ghola »

jameswilliamogle

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I think Versatile Spellcaster can be used w/ wizard spell slots.  It doesn't specify spontaneous spell slots anywhere in the text except the prereqs.  But, thats not the main point I was trying to make...

Anyways, its apparently an old trick that tsuyo pointed out p. 1.

PhaedrusXY

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Interesting.  I'd really need to see the versatile spell caster feat description before I bought on to this scheme.  Even if it does work as predicted, you still cannot cast a spell of much higher level than 9th and you still need the appropriate ability score to do so.  That said, being able to fill out your spells known from a very low level and cast an arbitrary number of said known spells is nothing to be scoffed at.
They're not talking about Versatile Spellcaster. That lets you lump low level slots together to cast a higher spell. The feat they're talking about is Arcane Manipulation, from LEoF, which lets you break a high level slot into smaller slots. This does seem like it breaks this all to hell, as noted earlier.

Of course, this is entirely TO. I really doubt any DM would let this fly, but that pretty much doesn't even need to be said, does it? :p
[spoiler]
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Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

jameswilliamogle

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Oh, I dunno...  I'm playing a pretty wacked out character in one of my games right now...

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Oh, I dunno...  I'm playing a pretty wacked out character in one of my games right now...

Elaborate, please?

Tleilaxu_Ghola

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Interesting.  I'd really need to see the versatile spell caster feat description before I bought on to this scheme.  Even if it does work as predicted, you still cannot cast a spell of much higher level than 9th and you still need the appropriate ability score to do so.  That said, being able to fill out your spells known from a very low level and cast an arbitrary number of said known spells is nothing to be scoffed at.
They're not talking about Versatile Spellcaster. That lets you lump low level slots together to cast a higher spell. The feat they're talking about is Arcane Manipulation, from LEoF, which lets you break a high level slot into smaller slots. This does seem like it breaks this all to hell, as noted earlier.
I was/am aware of what feat they were talking about.  The problem I'm perceiving is that even if you break the spell up slot up, that doesn't mean you have anything to put in it.  I had been thinking that one would use versatile spell caster to put stuff in those slots -- but that's not possible because versatile spell caster is used at the moment of casting, not to prepare the spell.  So basically you can split this AL slot into AL-N 1st level spells for a level 1 character, but you can't use those 1st level spells to populate any higher of the higher N spell slots you've reserved.  Even if you can use Versatile Spellcaster with wizard slots, the best you could do is get a 2nd level spell out of the business.


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Of course, this is entirely TO. I really doubt any DM would let this fly, but that pretty much doesn't even need to be said, does it? :p
Not really, no.  But when people start busting out "low level ascension" and "pun-pun", it's going to catch my critical eye.

PhaedrusXY

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An arbitrarily large number of spell slots of the highest level spell you can cast isn't TO to you?  :lmao  :lol Or did I misunderstand what the "not really, no" was in answer to?
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Tleilaxu_Ghola

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An arbitrarily large number of spell slots of the highest level spell you can cast isn't TO to you?  :lmao  :lol Or did I misunderstand what the "not really, no" was in answer to?
Yes you misunderstood me.  Incoming over analysis of my off hand comment:


No I don't think it's necessary to say that the original claims produce output which are characteristic of TO tricks, but I was pointing out that in order for the claims to be true you'd need to have in a situation with so much power and cheese (the TO realm), that the implications of the more salient claims could be ignored.  The reasoning being that if you want to talk about being in an environment where epic feats and NI stats are available to you, arbitrarily high spell slots levels aren't buying you a whole lot more power than would normally be accessible in such an environment.

jameswilliamogle

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How about this:

Human Wizard 1 / Beguiler 1
Arcane Manipulation, Heighten Spell
takes two flaws at L2 as per DM permission to get Versatile Spellcaster and Arcane Preparation (or whatever its called, so that spontaneous casters can cast quicken).

Breaks down his AL slot to AL L1-L9 slots.  Prepares Heightened spells in his L1-L9 slots via Arcane Prep*.

Since he "knows all the spells of a given level once they can cast a spell of that level", the caster can now cast AL L1-L9 spells from the Beguiler side.

Versatile Spellcaster lets him blow two N-1 level spells from the Beguiler side to cast an N level spell from the Wizard side (now, he still needs to know the spell he's casting on that side, though...).  He also still needs the ability mod to cast the spells, which is a pain (as mentioned).  None of those classes have the +4 stat spells :/.

At L3, take a level of Dread Necromancer, to get all those spells.  At L4, take a level of Warmage, to get all those.  Get into Rainbow Savant ASAP to add all the Cleric spells.

*I've seen counter arguments that the spell needs to be not "cast on the fly" to have continual access to spells of those levels.  So, I've added the prep feat.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 08:31:56 PM by jameswilliamogle »

PhaedrusXY

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Versatile Spellcaster lets him blow two N-1 level spells from the Beguiler side to cast an N level spell from the Wizard side (now, he still needs to know the spell he's casting on that side, though...).  He also still needs the ability mod to cast the spells, which is a pain (as mentioned).  None of those classes have the +4 stat spells :/.
Fox's Cunning is a wizard spell. Also, you can scribe spells into your spellbook of a level higher than you can normally cast, if you can make the spellcraft check. So this should work, I think.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

jameswilliamogle

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Ah, and the caster should be able to prepare Fox's Cunning by 2nd. 

tsuyoshikentsu

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Double post.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2009, 05:01:40 AM by tsuyoshikentsu »
Anyway, this cake is great!  It's so delicious and moist.

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tsuyoshikentsu

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So basically you can split this AL slot into AL-N 1st level spells for a level 1 character, but you can't use those 1st level spells to populate any higher of the higher N spell slots you've reserved.  Even if you can use Versatile Spellcaster with wizard slots, the best you could do is get a 2nd level spell out of the business.

Sorry, why?  If you put the spells in your book, you have the slots to cast them.

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Not really, no.  But when people start busting out "low level ascension" and "pun-pun", it's going to catch my critical eye.

Notice that I didn't.
Anyway, this cake is great!  It's so delicious and moist.

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Negative Zero

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A Swiftblade 10 could have Time Stop for AL rounds. Long enough for him to sleep and get that spell slot again, surely.

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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when people start busting out "low level ascension" and "pun-pun", it's going to catch my critical eye.
T_G is rockin' the house! Watch him continue to rock this discussion for the next for pages  :D

But on to my comment, I must say I am not going to bother checking the possibility. I looked over the FCII stuff and no where did I see that a person must be able to call an appropriate demon (without the DM being nice and allowing one to cross your path), much less one that has the power to grant higher level slots than Asmodeus himself has.

It is clear that 1 word is missing: 'available'. It only need be, an extra available spell slot. I'm unsure about adding this to my dirty handbook fixes, due to the fact I don't think it would ever work.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2009, 03:31:31 PM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
[Spoiler]
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
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Tleilaxu_Ghola

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Not really, no.  But when people start busting out "low level ascension" and "pun-pun", it's going to catch my critical eye.

Notice that I didn't.
Someone mentioned pun-pun, there was also the claim that this would grant enormous power at level 1 -- what can I say, they caught my eye on my first skim through?.  Anyways, here I am now.



In any event, I think there was a mis-understanding on my part with respect to known spells.  I remain convinced that level 10+ spells aren't possible without epic feats, but being able to cast 9th level spells in 1-3 levels with an ability score of 19 is about as good as it gets for an early entry ascension plot.  There are a few problems I'm having with the current plots:


1. Are we really using the idea that Arcane Manipulation slots magically become slots available for sorcerers/beguilers/or bards?  I think the fact that the slots disappear when you prepare your spells again STRONGLY suggests that they are wizard spell slots.  There is a difference between RAW and blatantly ignoring context.  The sarrukh can grant any ability imaginable and the context supports that.  Here the context strongly suggests that the spell slots belong to a wizard.

2. I'm pretty sure that spells known to a beguiler or warmage are not spells known to a wizard and cannot be used to fill wizard spell slots.  It'd be as crazy as saying one could fill arcane manipulation slots with divine spells just because one looks at the sentence that says spell slots and ignores the rest of the paragraph where it talks about doing this while preparing wizard spells.  And no, arcane preparation doesn't magically turn a beguiler/warmage spell into a wizard one.  If it did, then a straight beguiler would have no place to put a prepared spell, since she'd have no wizard slots to put them in.



But anyways, as long as you're making the spell craft checks to put high level spells into your spell book, and you're filling wizard spell slots with wizard spells you should be good.  9th level spells at 1st level is pretty hawt.

jameswilliamogle

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"And no, arcane preparation doesn't magically turn a beguiler/warmage spell into a wizard one.  If it did, then a straight beguiler would have no place to put a prepared spell, since she'd have no wizard slots to put them in."

I don't see how this follows from the rules text...  Could you elaborate a bit more, pretty please?  Same thing for Versatile Spellcaster - I don't see how it limits one to the same spontaneous casting spells...
« Last Edit: April 25, 2009, 02:46:07 PM by jameswilliamogle »

Tleilaxu_Ghola

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"And no, arcane preparation doesn't magically turn a beguiler/warmage spell into a wizard one.  If it did, then a straight beguiler would have no place to put a prepared spell, since she'd have no wizard slots to put them in."

I don't see how this follows from the rules text...  Could you elaborate a bit more, pretty please?
Do you see anywhere in the feat description where it explicitly allows putting the prepared spell in a wizard spell slot?  Do you understand that if it required a wizard spell slot that the feat would be non-functional under normal, non-multiclassed circumstances?  And finally do you have any evidence that one classes' spell slots are usable by another class?  No, of course not.   You cannot put bard/sor/warmage/beguiler spells (prepared or not) into a wizard spell slot just as much as you cannot put cleric spells into a wizard's spell slot.  If that were not true, why on earth would we have class abilities like "Expanded Spell Knowledge" in the Ultimate Magus, where they ALLOW known wizard spells (of limited quantity) to migrate into sorcerer's known spell repertoire, if we could just have used wizard known spells and stored them in a sorcerer's spell slot?

I'm sorry I don't have a piece of rules text that spells it out exactly, but it's just straight up logic and understanding of the game.  If what you're saying is possible, why don't all wizards dip 1 level cleric to get the cleric known list and prepare cleric spells in their wizard slots?