Author Topic: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts  (Read 12744 times)

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Tleilaxu_Ghola

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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2009, 12:40:07 AM »
Ach, okay, I should have seen this coming.  The problem is somewhat nebulous, but I'll try to lay it out as clearly as possible so as to rally any further efforts.

1. The point of this exercise is to deal with the consequences of selling one's soul, not avoid selling one's soul.  The consequence of interest is the loss of identity one experiences after their soul is rendered in Hell.  We wish to either circumvent the rendering process or retrieve one's identity after rendering.  For all intents and purposes, consider the character's soul damned without possible recourse.  There is no higher power to appeal to.  You really do need to deal with it.

2. Try to keep the options limited to something the TO DM might approve.  The TO DM, as implicitly defined on the TO boards, is essentially that all actions must be done within the RAW and with no NPC contact, unless such contact and the nature of the contact is within the RAW.

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Alright, that said, we can certainly explore methods of obtaining more power within the fiendish hierarchy.  I think that's pretty well spelled out, though.  The challenge is entering the hierarchy.  There are financial angles we can pursue.  I recall, in particular, one layer of hell whose primary focus on greed and promotes heavily based on financial gains.  That might be an important angle toward making advantageous deals.


On the topic of entering the hierarchy (or avoiding soul rendering), I see the following as mostly legitimate 3.5 "RAW" methods:

1. True Mind Switch with a devil, or mind switch with a devil outside of an astral seed (effectively the same thing, though the latter is cheaper).  DM may rule that the body isn't sufficient to make one a devil, one must be a devil in mind as well.  If that's the case, you're kind of screwed out of this option.
2. Transformative PrC: Acolyte of the Skin, 10th level ability.  DM may argue (tenuously) that becoming an outsider is not sufficient to make one a Devil.
3. Becoming a Deity by accumulating sufficient followers.  Arbitrary number of followers may be acquired via diplomancer tactics and diligent time investment.
4. Tweaked version of the alienist prestige class.  As stated in the fluff section on adaption, it can be tuned to more demonic flavor, rather than Far Realm flavor.  In this case, we'd want to tune it towards Devilish flavor.  DM approval here would be required, but at least this transformative PrC doesn't make my CO soul cringe.

sendmeanewid

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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2009, 12:51:22 AM »
Alright, that said, we can certainly explore methods of obtaining more power within the fiendish hierarchy.  I think that's pretty well spelled out, though.  The challenge is entering the hierarchy.

Yes, but let's suppose that you manage to determine a way to circumvent rending, or regaining your identity, and that you manage to successfully enter the infernal hierarchy.  How can you avoid being subsequently arbitrarily demoted to a lemure?


Tleilaxu_Ghola

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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #42 on: April 24, 2009, 12:53:49 AM »
Alright, that said, we can certainly explore methods of obtaining more power within the fiendish hierarchy.  I think that's pretty well spelled out, though.  The challenge is entering the hierarchy.

Yes, but let's suppose that you manage to determine a way to circumvent rending, or regaining your identity, and that you manage to successfully enter the infernal hierarchy.  How can you avoid being subsequently arbitrarily demoted to a lemure?


No.  Of course not.  This is not a certain business, of course.  But the plan is to position oneself as best as possible.  The current, apathetic outlook of having made a Faustian Pact without doing anything else about it is pretty bleak.  I aim to improve that to outlook as much as is realistically possible.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2009, 01:18:47 AM »
Ack, AFB for the moment, but isn't there some creature in the fiendish codex (name's nebasu?  something like that) with a juvenile form that has a (su) ability to devour people, and after it gets 30 it matures into a full adult?  I can't remember if it's a devil, demon, or delmon, though... assume supernatural ability is five kinds of broken, of course, but if it's on the correct end of the law/chaos spectrum, it seems like a workable way to become the right kind of creature.


You also didn't add the savage species rules to the list... not that I blame you, since even the lowest devil has a pretty crippling LA...
« Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 01:22:14 AM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2009, 01:49:23 AM »
How about a resurrection/eternal life contract with your diabolic patron, provided you continue supplying a certain number of souls per year. Essentially, as long as he keeps you alive, you keep him supplied with steady damnnation.

The obvious end to this is to conquer your world and and as Evil Overlord, supply a steady tax of citizens to Hell.
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Tleilaxu_Ghola

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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #45 on: April 24, 2009, 02:47:39 AM »
You also didn't add the savage species rules to the list... not that I blame you, since even the lowest devil has a pretty crippling LA...
Because it's not strictly 3.5.  I'll have to ask the DM if it's allowed or not... but I like to keep pesky questions to a minimum, until I'm positive I NEED to ask them.

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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #46 on: April 24, 2009, 02:53:04 AM »
How about a resurrection/eternal life contract with your diabolic patron, provided you continue supplying a certain number of souls per year. Essentially, as long as he keeps you alive, you keep him supplied with steady damnnation.

The obvious end to this is to conquer your world and and as Evil Overlord, supply a steady tax of citizens to Hell.
Yes, yes, yes.  This has been mentioned in various forms.  As I've said before (perhaps not clearly), this is a possibility.  However, it involves negotiations that aren't really in my control.  Ideally, one would not need to appeal to a higher power to ensure one's survival, especially when said higher power is a characteristically vindictive and fickle Devil.

You do touch tangentially on an option previously discussed and not very well explored: proclaiming a religion.  One might become a petitioner of a god if one is religious enough, supposedly and then Hell's claim on your soul is no longer valid, as I recall from FCII rules on that.  If worse comes to worse I could go this route, although it doesn't make much sense with the rest of the character background I've developed -- namely membership in a largely atheistic/agnostic organization of wizards.

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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2009, 03:37:41 AM »
Just to combine a few good ideas I've heard:

1. Get yourself past Lemure. You need an intelligence score to avoid 'reasonable denial' of (2).

2. Thought Bottle can not only bottle XP, but can also bottle memories. You will require an individual(preferable Charmed/Dominated) to Lesser Planar Bind(or any appropriate summon/call spell) your new form and use the "immediate service" to make your impish(?) self "retrieve all that is stored in the bottle for yourself".

I believe that if you can achieve basic promotion to Imp, proper contingencies(including, but not limited to, spells of the same name) will carry you through.
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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #48 on: April 24, 2009, 10:05:37 AM »
What about obtaining an imp (or other such critter) as a familiar, and then Mind Switching with it?  Given that the familiar is supposedly an extension of you, and also undeniably meets the infernal qualifications you're looking for...

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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #49 on: April 24, 2009, 11:46:26 AM »
What about obtaining an imp (or other such critter) as a familiar, and then Mind Switching with it?  Given that the familiar is supposedly an extension of you, and also undeniably meets the infernal qualifications you're looking for...
Sure -- actually I already have an imp familiar planned.  I'll need to ask about whether mind-switch in this manner works, but one of the campaign restrictions is that psionics is unavailable to non-gith/mind-flayer characters.  Sooo, it'll be hard to come by, I think.  It'd take 3 NPC castings of true mind-switch to accomplish.

Note: mind-switch does not grant subtype or change alignment, which is my only concern.

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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #50 on: April 24, 2009, 12:07:30 PM »
If mind switch is unavailable, would Flesh to Stone -> Haunt Shift -> Stone to Flesh work?

I'm AFB, so I don't even know if that's a valid combo.

Similarly, what about PaO?

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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #51 on: April 24, 2009, 05:32:42 PM »
You could also die when you have enough xp to level up, and immediately take the first level of the ghost savage progression.  If your reason for sticking around is to keep your identity from being lost, you've got considerable leeway in what you can do.  And, hey, incorporeality.  I'm fairly certain that the savage progression's LA can be bought off, if you're using that rule...

Oh, and savage progressions don't require you to take all the levels in a row.  You can multiclass out as normal.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 05:35:13 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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Tleilaxu_Ghola

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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #52 on: April 24, 2009, 06:51:26 PM »
You could also die when you have enough xp to level up, and immediately take the first level of the ghost savage progression.  If your reason for sticking around is to keep your identity from being lost, you've got considerable leeway in what you can do.  And, hey, incorporeality.  I'm fairly certain that the savage progression's LA can be bought off, if you're using that rule...

Oh, and savage progressions don't require you to take all the levels in a row.  You can multiclass out as normal.

That is beyond awesome.  CO friendly and RP friendly while not being overly cheesy.  I'm almost tempted to actually make that part of the back story and just roll with a ghost...

Huh.  I'll have to think about this.

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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #53 on: April 24, 2009, 09:10:54 PM »
If you go that route, faerie mysteries initiate seems like the ideal feat for you.  You're a grey elf already, and Int to bonus hp is great for undead.  It's dragon material, but if you can get it cleared...

EDIT: There is, of course, the issue with how taint interacts with undead characters.
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Tleilaxu_Ghola

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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #54 on: April 24, 2009, 09:20:15 PM »
EDIT: There is, of course, the issue with how taint interacts with undead characters.
Yes, there is that small problem.  The other problem is that I lose my bonus feats, which are quite critical to this character's optimal function.

EDIT: err, I think that's right?  I lose all negative aspects of taint... hm, maybe I would retain feats.  Oh well, I've decided to shelf the idea as a good plan B, in case I do die.

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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #55 on: April 24, 2009, 09:51:55 PM »
The issue is more that how taint is handled for undead characters is vague more than anything else.  You don't take any negative effects from taint, but still have a taint score, so presumably you'd keep your feats. 

The biggest hurdle is resisting the urge to send your taint score into the stratosphere for bonus spells.  Asking your DM for rules changes that mildly nerf your character (maximum taint caps?) tends never to be turned down IME...
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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #56 on: April 25, 2009, 11:11:07 PM »
Thinking aloud: On the topic of the deification route.

1. Anyone know how many followers one needs for rank 1?  Should be in Deities and Demigods, but I'm AFB.
2. There's also the divine proxy mechanics.  Hmm.  That's somewhat more restricting without the use of component-less ice assassin.
3. Exceptional petitioner mechanics might also work, though even more restricting.
I found the Divine Ranks rules here. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm as you can clearly see rank one needs just over a hundred followers.
PH leadership rank 25 gives 165 followers.  :D :D :D
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Tleilaxu_Ghola

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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #57 on: April 25, 2009, 11:31:22 PM »
Thinking aloud: On the topic of the deification route.

1. Anyone know how many followers one needs for rank 1?  Should be in Deities and Demigods, but I'm AFB.
2. There's also the divine proxy mechanics.  Hmm.  That's somewhat more restricting without the use of component-less ice assassin.
3. Exceptional petitioner mechanics might also work, though even more restricting.
I found the Divine Ranks rules here. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm as you can clearly see rank one needs just over a hundred followers.
PH leadership rank 25 gives 165 followers.  :D :D :D
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also this character is clearly a schemer, making planning a logical domain. Time stop at will anyone? :D :D :D

There is a difference between follower and worshiper.  But yes, this is a nice clarification on what I would need to do.  My current plan is to try for it, but keep it a long-term possibly campaign resolution kind of goal.  Essentially just use it as an interesting thing to pursue if nothing else.


The biggest hurdle is resisting the urge to send your taint score into the stratosphere for bonus spells.  Asking your DM for rules changes that mildly nerf your character (maximum taint caps?) tends never to be turned down IME...

We decided to basically halve the maximum taint values as a function of wis/con from the table.  When you do that, it's really not THAT bad anymore.  For a character with 16 wis/con, your save DCs can get pretty high (22+spell level), but it's not wtf broken.  There are a couple of other factors which prevent this character from rofl-pwning all over the place (aside from my reluctance to do so).


Anyways, I talked at length to the DM on this matter.  The following were decided:

1. Savage Species rituals to become a fiend are allowable.  I don't think this is a very CO-friendly pathway, however.
2. Alienist PrC can be adapted such that upon transformation, one becomes a unique fiend (gaining outsider type).  Basically replace everything pseudonatural with fiendish and tweak some flavor a little bit.  This adaptation style was mentioned in CArc.  Obviously for a fiendish transformation, the alignment predilection changes from chaos to law.
3. For some reason he seemed to be okay with the idea of Haunt Shifting an object.  I think this is cheese to be avoided, personally.
4. Becoming undead was interpreted to mean that one's soul essentially soul energy is lost and replacing it with negative energy, thereby circumventing the problem of soul rendering somewhat.  This solution preserves continuity of the mind, if done right, which is really the most basic goal my character has.
5. "Getting Religion" won't work with a pact certain, but would work with a pact insidious by his ruling.
6. It was agreed that under a pact certain I could purchase more time to exist by corrupting others.  The idea here being that I might instigate and convince fellow mortals to sign Faustian pacts.  Once they agree, my imp familiar would have the necessary means to complete and tender the transaction, with the credit going to the imp (for promotional purposes), but time credit would be added to my material existence in a straightforward manner, depending on the value of the soul ensnared.
7. The concept of becoming a deity was met with chuckles.



So my plan is as follows:

0. Sign a pact certain with the condition that I am guaranteed to be undisturbed by soul collectors until I run out of time.  Time being X years, with additional time being added by getting others to sign pacts or getting them to be lawful evil.  X years and how much time is added under what circumstances is something I've yet to fully formulate.
1. Take the alienist PrC starting at level 13 (I want to get 3 levels of tainted scholar for the lore ability, which as of my current build will require 2 more levels beyond 10).  This puts me on track to enter the hierarchy by level 22.  Kind of long term, I know, but it's the safe bet for now.
2. Plan B consists of becoming a necropolitan if I can't successfully meet my soul quota.  The devils get my soul still, but my mind remains intact.
3. Uber long term plan consists of me attempting to set up a religion for myself, so that I can become a deity... at the conclusion of the campaign.


All those combined should let me function fairly normally as a character, depending on how time pressed the DM wants me to be.  If I got to get a soul a week or something, it might not be terribly functional.

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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #58 on: April 26, 2009, 12:12:34 AM »
Quote
Why not add more pacts to it?
A deal for elevation to fiendom in exchange for damning X mortals?
Think of it as a diabolic pyramid scheme.

Is there anything stating that you cannot enter a contract with more than one devil at a time?

Consider this: you promise your soul to a specific devil. Then, you turn around, and promise your soul to another specific devil that stands in direct opposition of the devil you first contracted with.

Therefore, if EITHER wants your soul, they'll have to work against the other for it. Make sure your soul becomes as valuable as possible in the meantime so they don't simply back out. Either they'll both give up on your soul, or they'll enter an agreement for it (unlikely). Either case is a win-win situation for you, provided one of them doesn't simply forfeit your soul to the other (a condition you'd still need to force somehow).

This is the best solution I can think of as far as the RP is concerned... don't know how it'd work CO-wise.
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Tleilaxu_Ghola

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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #59 on: April 26, 2009, 01:01:06 AM »
Quote
Why not add more pacts to it?
A deal for elevation to fiendom in exchange for damning X mortals?
Think of it as a diabolic pyramid scheme.

Is there anything stating that you cannot enter a contract with more than one devil at a time?

Consider this: you promise your soul to a specific devil. Then, you turn around, and promise your soul to another specific devil that stands in direct opposition of the devil you first contracted with.

Therefore, if EITHER wants your soul, they'll have to work against the other for it. Make sure your soul becomes as valuable as possible in the meantime so they don't simply back out. Either they'll both give up on your soul, or they'll enter an agreement for it (unlikely). Either case is a win-win situation for you, provided one of them doesn't simply forfeit your soul to the other (a condition you'd still need to force somehow).

This is the best solution I can think of as far as the RP is concerned... don't know how it'd work CO-wise.

Turns out these tricks DON'T work.  The case of multiple corruptions is covered in FCII, and the credit of your soul under whatever happens later always goes to the devil who first corrupted you.  Even killing that devil accomplishes nothing, since he'll just respawn (unless you kill him in Hell).  Best case scenario, the second devil kills the first in Hell and gets your soul.  What'd you win now?