Author Topic: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts  (Read 12745 times)

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veekie

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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2009, 03:12:57 PM »
Why not add more pacts to it?
A deal for elevation to fiendom in exchange for damning X mortals?
Think of it as a diabolic pyramid scheme.
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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2009, 03:14:49 PM »
Thinking aloud: On the topic of the deification route.

1. Anyone know how many followers one needs for rank 1?  Should be in Deities and Demigods, but I'm AFB.
2. There's also the divine proxy mechanics.  Hmm.  That's somewhat more restricting without the use of component-less ice assassin.
3. Exceptional petitioner mechanics might also work, though even more restricting.

it basically said you decide, assuming DM's approval and/or involvement.
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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2009, 03:19:14 PM »
Why not add more pacts to it?
A deal for elevation to fiendom in exchange for damning X mortals?
Think of it as a diabolic pyramid scheme.
This works as a means of buying time for a more concrete idea, and I had planned on doing precisely that.  However, even the best pyramid schemes fall apart eventually and the only way to make them work is to make sure you have a safe out.  The safe out is what I'm trying to figure out here.

sendmeanewid

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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2009, 03:51:54 PM »
Seriously, simply purchase your own yet-to-be-corrupted soul through a straw purchase.  There's no need to construct a Ponzi scheme, unless you want to make one of such scale that the hellish economy is seriously affected.


The trouble with the promotion mechanics is that demotion is an ever present possibility that can be accomplished at the whim of any devilish superior.  Outside of ironclad contracts which prevent this possibility, I would think that since so much of hell is dependent upon corrupted souls, you can gain a lot of real power over the devilish hierarchy by controlling the market on damned souls.

Either that, or just outright killing-without-justification anything that doesn't agree with you.  Not particularly elegant that.

skydragonknight

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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2009, 03:55:26 PM »
The answer could be easier than you think. You're dealing with a greedy devil. Just gain possession of ten souls and buy your soul back.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2009, 04:04:35 PM »
The answer could be easier than you think. You're dealing with a greedy devil. Just gain possession of ten souls and buy your soul back.

Well, really you would need to construct an analogous Black-Scholes model to properly value these contracts.

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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2009, 04:24:02 PM »
@Tsuyo: You idea of contingent revivify is good.  However, realistically, if a Devil has a claim on your soul, immortal and prepared or not, he's gonna figure out a way to collect it in the end.  As for Necropolitan... well, that's possible, but it definitely crosses into the realm of over powered.  That particular race/class combination *was* a campaign smasher, remember?  I suppose one could refrain from breaking it, but I do kind of like having some risk to the taint mechanics.  Otherwise, it's just cheesed.

Faustian Pacts are freaking campaign smashers.  It took me all of five seconds (and Lormador however long it took to post what he did) to break them.

That said, though, you're basically Johnny here.  (Of golden fiddle fame.)  There is a long and storied history of people trying to beat devils at their own game; here, you're trying to do it by holding onto your soul for longer than they can.  Sure, they'll try to find a way in the end, but these guys are no dummies: they'll try to find a way no matter what you do.
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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2009, 04:24:39 PM »

It's actually a magical location in FCII, and it's only guarded by mortal cultists.

Why not add more pacts to it?
A deal for elevation to fiendom in exchange for damning X mortals?
Think of it as a diabolic pyramid scheme.
This works as a means of buying time for a more concrete idea, and I had planned on doing precisely that.  However, even the best pyramid schemes fall apart eventually and the only way to make them work is to make sure you have a safe out.  The safe out is what I'm trying to figure out here.

Well, Ponzi schemes only fail because we're in a finite universe, with a limited number of scammable people.  By RAW, the DnD multiverse is composed of an infinite number of infinite planes - thus, you always have the same market audience as when you started. No reason for the scheme to collapse.

Pyramid schemes often end up fine for the top tier guys.  It's just always awful for those dudes at the end.

You could try a 419 scam... I'm sure *somebody* is going to fall for it...

You could research into becoming a vestige, then pull off the self-reanimation trick I mentioned earlier, have your body pick up a level of binder, and bind yourself.

Or you could use a EULA...
« Last Edit: April 23, 2009, 04:26:21 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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Tleilaxu_Ghola

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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2009, 04:27:37 PM »
The economy of souls angle is something I've considered, as I said before, but there are problems and one cannot insure oneself completely against a devil taking you out for mackin' on his turf.  There are also mechanical issues to be resolved.

As a mortal how are you able to lay claim to a soul you've corrupted?  The credit of the corruption goes to the devil initially involved and he has no obligations towards a mortal.  In other words, you're not part of the system and anything you contribute to the system could be usurped by the devil who corrupted you in the first place, getting you no where, but on the mercy of said devil.  Devils aren't notoriously merciful nor are they in the business of returning favors unless bound to do so.  The naive solution, then, is to get the devil to credit your conversions to your future lemure form in a binding pact.  This is fraught withe mechanic problems, though, since I've not found a legitimate, rules-solid means of doing this.  The devil might make such a pact knowing that such a transfer would not be possible.  In the event that you tried to arbitrate a violation of the pact, you'd find that even if you won the only possible positive outcome would be the release of your soul from Hell.  But since the pact's conditions are only valid upon your damnation, you're already screwed.  However the DM wants to judge it -- in the end you're either released from Hell or not, but the court's purpose isn't to ensure that the conditions of the pact are met -- only the result of the pact.  If that makes any sense.

Bottom line: mortals get the short end of the stick here.  I am not seeing a good way for mortals or even non-devil immortals of benefiting from Faustian Pacts in the long term.  The only solution is to either enter the system by another means than soul rendering or somehow circumvent normal circumstances following soul rendering.



Like I said, this isn't an easy problem.

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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2009, 04:36:16 PM »
@Tsuyo: You idea of contingent revivify is good.  However, realistically, if a Devil has a claim on your soul, immortal and prepared or not, he's gonna figure out a way to collect it in the end.  As for Necropolitan... well, that's possible, but it definitely crosses into the realm of over powered.  That particular race/class combination *was* a campaign smasher, remember?  I suppose one could refrain from breaking it, but I do kind of like having some risk to the taint mechanics.  Otherwise, it's just cheesed.

Faustian Pacts are freaking campaign smashers.  It took me all of five seconds (and Lormador however long it took to post what he did) to break them.

That said, though, you're basically Johnny here.  (Of golden fiddle fame.)  There is a long and storied history of people trying to beat devils at their own game; here, you're trying to do it by holding onto your soul for longer than they can.  Sure, they'll try to find a way in the end, but these guys are no dummies: they'll try to find a way no matter what you do.
Yes.  Exactly.  Which is why, when I was plotting out this character's logical response to the situation which resulted in the pact, she concluded that the best mode operation after the pact was not to "beat them", but to "join them".  This character is attempting to go just beyond "joining them" and really would like to "join them with style".


It's actually a magical location in FCII, and it's only guarded by mortal cultists.

Why not add more pacts to it?
A deal for elevation to fiendom in exchange for damning X mortals?
Think of it as a diabolic pyramid scheme.
This works as a means of buying time for a more concrete idea, and I had planned on doing precisely that.  However, even the best pyramid schemes fall apart eventually and the only way to make them work is to make sure you have a safe out.  The safe out is what I'm trying to figure out here.

Well, Ponzi schemes only fail because we're in a finite universe, with a limited number of scammable people.  By RAW, the DnD multiverse is composed of an infinite number of infinite planes - thus, you always have the same market audience as when you started. No reason for the scheme to collapse.

Pyramid schemes often end up fine for the top tier guys.  It's just always awful for those dudes at the end.

You could try a 419 scam... I'm sure *somebody* is going to fall for it...

You could research into becoming a vestige, then pull off the self-reanimation trick I mentioned earlier, have your body pick up a level of binder, and bind yourself.

Or you could use a EULA...

Interesting.  Yes, you do make a good point.  But, again, mechanics.  When it gets down to brass tacks, I need a solid, RAW means of becoming a fiend.  On top of that, I need a good way of doing it without it being overly broken mechanically.  Looking for maximal RP impact, with minimal CO impact, if you catch my drift.

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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2009, 05:33:04 PM »
Hmmm.... could you use the sandwich trick and extensive PaO for this?
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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2009, 06:02:48 PM »
Hmmm.... could you use the sandwich trick and extensive PaO for this?
OMG I forgot the sandwich tricks...

EDIT: Ah, damn, I think psionics is largely unavailable in this campaign.  I'll have to look into that, though.  IIRC personality parasite on lemure form would work.  Much the same as mindrape, with more restrictions and lower level requirement.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2009, 06:05:07 PM by Tleilaxu_Ghola »

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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2009, 06:11:11 PM »
As a mortal how are you able to lay claim to a soul you've corrupted?  The credit of the corruption goes to the devil initially involved and he has no obligations towards a mortal.  In other words, you're not part of the system and anything you contribute to the system could be usurped by the devil who corrupted you in the first place, getting you no where, but on the mercy of said devil.

Night hags are known merchants of souls, and have no part in the infernal hierarchy.  The last one that did ended up getting remodeled into a house (so to speak).  So there is precedent for this sort of thing.

But if finance isn't your thing, you can always go back to the fundamentals and go the fallen angel route.  You'll at least end up an erinyes, and Asmodeus used that route himself.


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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2009, 06:18:49 PM »
It's actually a magical location in FCII, and it's only guarded by mortal cultists.
Ah, indeed. It still doesn't mean Asmodeus will let you do whatever you please with it.

Quote
When it gets down to brass tacks, I need a solid, RAW means of becoming a fiend.  On top of that, I need a good way of doing it without it being overly broken mechanically.  Looking for maximal RP impact, with minimal CO impact, if you catch my drift.
But when you deal with RP there is no certainty !

Nar Fiendbond is a spell from Lost Empires of Faerun that grants the half-fiend subtype to a humanoid. You still need to pay for it (i.e. you won't level for a while). You become an outsider ; you could use rituals from SS to grant you the Lawful and Evil subtypes but they're ridiculously expensive and may not help. Still, it's a first step towards fiendom.
Another ritual from SS uses Wish to turn you into another creature but again you'll need to pay for he LA and RHDs (by switching out your class levels I think).

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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2009, 07:19:53 PM »
The John Constantine solution was to sell your soul to a second devil, get them to fight over you, and negotiate a political solution... Maybe eventually get a higher ranking devil to cancel all the contracts in order to reduce chaos in his realm.

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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2009, 07:44:26 PM »
It's actually a magical location in FCII, and it's only guarded by mortal cultists.
Ah, indeed. It still doesn't mean Asmodeus will let you do whatever you please with it.

Well, you only need one round to gate it out.  Make it a craft contingent spell, and it's not like they can stop you...

Quote
The John Constantine solution was to sell your soul to a second devil, get them to fight over you, and negotiate a political solution... Maybe eventually get a higher ranking devil to cancel all the contracts in order to reduce chaos in his realm.
Sell it to some demons as well.  And some yugaloths.  And night hags.  And solars.  And titans.  And make all contracts verbally, cut off the bottoms of your feet, cast regenerate, and give them all your soles.

Oh, and pledge your soul to an elder evil.  Bonus feats, plus how are they going to enforce their contract against a lovecraftian horror?
« Last Edit: April 23, 2009, 07:48:05 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #36 on: April 23, 2009, 10:01:23 PM »
Quote
When it gets down to brass tacks, I need a solid, RAW means of becoming a fiend.  On top of that, I need a good way of doing it without it being overly broken mechanically.  Looking for maximal RP impact, with minimal CO impact, if you catch my drift.
But when you deal with RP there is no certainty !

Nar Fiendbond is a spell from Lost Empires of Faerun that grants the half-fiend subtype to a humanoid. You still need to pay for it (i.e. you won't level for a while). You become an outsider ; you could use rituals from SS to grant you the Lawful and Evil subtypes but they're ridiculously expensive and may not help. Still, it's a first step towards fiendom.
Another ritual from SS uses Wish to turn you into another creature but again you'll need to pay for he LA and RHDs (by switching out your class levels I think).
Yes, RP is an uncertain environment, but there are "RAW" pathways to achieve fiendom as you just showed.  The point is to find multiple mechanisms for achieving the goal and then seeing which ones are possible in the "RP environment", aka the campaign.  Anyways, the idea of selling your soul to higher powers is dangerous for a reason.  One day the DM could just up and say that someone has come to collect.  If chaos ensues as a result of multiple claims, chances are it'd be over your head and your ability to affect the end result would be slim.  In other words, the risk is high and the rewards uncertain.  Just a bad idea all around.  And you can bet that no devil will be laughing when you give them the sole of your shoe.

As a mortal how are you able to lay claim to a soul you've corrupted?  The credit of the corruption goes to the devil initially involved and he has no obligations towards a mortal.  In other words, you're not part of the system and anything you contribute to the system could be usurped by the devil who corrupted you in the first place, getting you no where, but on the mercy of said devil.

Night hags are known merchants of souls, and have no part in the infernal hierarchy.  The last one that did ended up getting remodeled into a house (so to speak).  So there is precedent for this sort of thing.
Precedent for bartering with souls, sure, but currency cannot always buy what you want.  I was arguing that if you're not in the heirarchy of Hell, there's not necessarily a way to BUY a future promotion.  I can talk to the DM and see what he thinks about this, but until I do, I file such schemes under the "not-so-certain" pile.  If the DM approves the purchase of promotion futures, then stocking souls would be an attractive option.  Trap the Soul being a convenient mechanic for doing precisely that.

Quote
But if finance isn't your thing, you can always go back to the fundamentals and go the fallen angel route.  You'll at least end up an erinyes, and Asmodeus used that route himself.
I can't imagine that becoming an angel -> fallen angel would be any easier than just going straight to devil.  I might be wrong, though.  Did you have a specific mechanic in mind?


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True Name magic brings a couple interesting options to the table.

1. Fiendbinder isn't an absolutely terrible PrC, though it is difficult to justify losing caster levels for the abilities it brings.  RAW isn't completely solid, either, but "Archfiend's Favor" has to count for something in Hell.

2. Unname: Supposedly destroys the soul, true name, and body of the individual.  Although there still exists some ways to bring the person back... not sure how solid this is, but perhaps one might use this to abrogate claims on one's soul by destroying said soul and assuming a different one, under another true name.

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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #37 on: April 23, 2009, 10:39:27 PM »
Hey, according to the BoVD on page 45, a soul's market value is 200 gp.  :rollseyes

Offer the devil 2000 gp for it.  It's a 900% markup - he's going to pounce.

Heck, point out that the value of the chance of getting a soul sometime down the line, which has a value of 200 gp, is worth significantly less than just 200 gp up front, especially discounting the value to the present using standard interest rates.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2009, 10:42:06 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #38 on: April 23, 2009, 10:50:36 PM »
in this economy?
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Re: A Difficult RP/CO Problem: Faustian Pacts
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2009, 12:21:08 AM »
If you're seeking a RAW mechanical method to gain promotion quickly, and keep it that way, you're not going to find it AFAIK.  While it's certainly possible to be quickly promoted, by the rules, any of the devils authorized to make promotions can just as easily demote you for entirely arbitrary reasons.  Thus, the only way to ensure that you aren't demoted is to make sure that the consequences of doing so are worse than the drawbacks of promoting you.  You also have to guard against so-called "lateral promotions."

If however, you're just looking to acquire the Evil subtype and/or the Outsider type, that can be arranged via various means (SavSp rituals $$, Winterhound of Iborighu 10, Divine Minion template +1 LA, Divine Disciple 5, Polymorph hijinks, etc.)  From there, you can take any of the Fiend prestige classes in Fiend Folio.  That way, you don't even need to enter into an infernal bargain!

Hey, according to the BoVD on page 45, a soul's market value is 200 gp.  :rollseyes

Well, what did expect?  It seems that the vast majority of them turn out to be hacked off bottoms of feet...   :D