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[wezylithyx]

I have class all day, so I won't be posting a basic character til tonight. Phaedrus, do you think you'll be able to fill the main healing role, or would some support be useful?

Also, jmw, how do you feel about leadership if its just used to get a sweet mount? Is it banned completely?

[Solo]

Should I drop a level of monk and swashbuckler for Witch Slayer 2 (Mettle)? I'd lose Evasion, Deflect Arrows, and Weapon Finesse, break even on Fort saves, and gain +2 to Will (which I don't really need).

Who needs Evasion when you have Mettle? Remember, Evasion comes in ring form, Mettle does not.

[PhaedrusXY]

I have class all day, so I won't be posting a basic character til tonight. Phaedrus, do you think you'll be able to fill the main healing role, or would some support be useful?

Well, I'm not planning on healing so much as being able to fix things. I can raise the dead (with no level loss), restore lost levels and ability scores, and heal a bit. But my healing will be very inefficient. So we'll definitely need alternative forms of actual hit point healing.

Alternatively, if you want to handle it all, that would let me pick up a different mantle and get rid of those powers known. It is definitely easier for a cleric to do this kind of stuff, as they get all spells known, while I have to spend my precious powers known slots on this stuff...

Should I drop a level of monk and swashbuckler for Witch Slayer 2 (Mettle)? I'd lose Evasion, Deflect Arrows, and Weapon Finesse, break even on Fort saves, and gain +2 to Will (which I don't really need).

Who needs Evasion when you have Mettle? Remember, Evasion comes in ring form, Mettle does not.

Yeah, good point. Losing Weapon Finesse will increase my MAD a bit, and force me more into a ranged role, though. But I guess that's ok.

[Kaelik]

Yah, I know that the LA Buyoffs should have caught up at this point under normal circumstances - I'm not assuming that in the calculations.  I mean, there's gotta be some sort of balancing factor.  Maybe you were adventuring with a bunch of ECL 10s for the last few levels.

I don't really want a bunch of monsters running around as PCs, but thats just the way it goes, sometimes.

You think we could start just one level behind instead of two? It's assuming 3000xp difference is made up across 5-6 levels. It also save us the trouble of leveling after almost literally the very first encounter.

As a level 10 character, we would get 6,000XP for defeating a single level 12 monster as part of a group of 4 that would be divided to 1,500XP. Since we have apparently some sixish people, it will be divided more then that, but you'll probably want to use a higher CR. Assuming you give us an EL 14 encounter that's 2000XP per level ten character. And if god forbid you go to EL 15, like because you wanted to have fewer then 4 encounters that day, we do level in the very first encounter.

Of course, since you said you'd likely be giving more XP to account for PbP slowness, well, we'll probably level from our very first EL 12 encounter.

[Solo]

Yeah, good point. Losing Weapon Finesse will increase my MAD a bit, and force me more into a ranged role, though. But I guess that's ok.

Weapon Finess? Pfft.... Intuitive Attack ftw!

You could trade Point Blank Shot for Intuitive Attack. You're focusing on WIS, right?

[Kaelik]

Oh yeah, and anyone got an idea for 10,000gp? Or should I save it to spend on my Epic 52,000gp Ice Armor?

[PhaedrusXY]

Yeah, good point. Losing Weapon Finesse will increase my MAD a bit, and force me more into a ranged role, though. But I guess that's ok.

Weapon Finess? Pfft.... Intuitive Attack ftw!

You could trade Point Blank Shot for Intuitive Attack.

Meh, if I'm not relying on Stunning Fist (and I'm not), there isn't much difference. Both Dex and Wis add to AC. Dex adds to Reflex, while Wis adds to Will. My Will saves on the original build will be very high, so I'm not worried there. Intuitive Attack doesn't add to damage, does it? (Edit: Oh yeah... my powers are dependent on Wisdom. Duh!  )

I'm considering changing the build to one of these:

Human Ardent 4/Monk 2/Slayer 4/Witch Slayer 2
ML11, Monk 4 (bleh, not even worth Tashalatora at this point), lose Weapon Finesse, gain Mettle

Or I could say screw all this monk stuff, and go
Human Ranger1/Ardent 5/Slayer 4/Witch Slayer 2
ML 12, Mettle, BAB +10, better skills, more available feats, another mantle

or even
Human Ranger2/Ardent 4/Slayer 4/Witch Slayer 2
ML 11, Mettle, BAB +11, better skills, even more available feats


I've played lots of monk-like characters, so I'm leaning towards one of the last two I think.

[jameswilliamogle]

"You think we could start just one level behind instead of two? It's assuming 3000xp difference is made up across 5-6 levels. It also save us the trouble of leveling after almost literally the very first encounter."

This is the most compelling argument so far;  OK, how about this - feel free to start just 1 level behind, and you guys owe me the extra XP.

Leadership for a sweet mount I think is OK... No Astral Projection on Nightmares, though - its been hardwired into their beings to never use it if they are in servitude of any kind .

[Kaelik]

This is the most compelling argument so far;  OK, how about this - feel free to start just 1 level behind, and you guys owe me the extra XP.

Would this mean we'd get that 3000XP slower then we would if we just stayed level 10? Couldn't we just get an automatic 3000XP for being two levels behind? Or have everyone start at 12+5000XP?

[jameswilliamogle]

Ugh...   

OK, what is everyone's LA again?

[Solo]

+0

[PhaedrusXY]

Ugh...   

OK, what is everyone's LA again?

Poor guy. I'm still waffling between playing a human or kalashtar (LA +0), and a githzerai (LA +2), depending on what you decide to do with LA buyoff.

[Kaelik]

Ugh...   

OK, what is everyone's LA again?

Okay, so no one has any LA when we start.

Some people might have used LA buyoff. I did. If they are trying to buyoff +1 LA, and only have the amount of XP as the level 12 characters before spending, they will be a level behind, even though organically they would have caught up at level 5.

Other people, like myself, are buying off +2 LA. The point of buyoff is that by level 12, what you got for +2 LA is no longer worth the difference between level 6 and level 5 spells, (or whatever else you are looking at) even though it was worth the difference between level 1 and level 2 spells.

Given your current rules, I will probably level to 11 after one fight. If I had grown organically, I'd be the same level as everyone else. I am fine not being the same level, but, it would be nice for me if I started at level 11, instead of fighting an encounter first, and in an abstract sense, I'd like to gain those 3000XP faster or at the same speed as I would have being a level 10 character.

If you just allow people using LA buyoff to be only a level behind if +2, then we are still behind, and will still be behind for a while, but we don't have to level after the first fight.

[jameswilliamogle]

I am not OK with:
LA +2 w/ no consequences.  Don't assume "organic growth".  By the same logic, a crafter could just have have been behind most of their career and end up with an extra 20% or 30% in equipment for almost no cost.  We didn't have that organic experience, and so this feels like abusing what LA buyoff is for (yes, I realize its for reducing mediocre templates with LAs that don't level well, but how many of you have those?).

I am OK with:
LA +2, all bought off, at ECL 11, with you guys just not getting 3k XP for the first encounter.  Here its purely a paperwork issue (and I understand the need to reduce it), and I'm fine with you guys just going to L11 just for that purpose.

I'll be using the CR system as normal, so the (now) ECL 11's will be getting XP at a slightly faster rate.

Does this make sense?  Is this reasonable?

tangent:
Its the same kind of arguments I used to use on newer DMs.  I'd usually win, but the game wasn't any better b/c of it.  More templating really only means tougher monsters, and more number-crunching (which is why I don't like epic play).  PBP may be different, but still...  Enemies with class levels will have LA bought-off in the same manner as players.

[Kaelik]

I am not OK with:
LA +2 w/ no consequences.  Don't assume "organic growth".  By the same logic, a crafter could just have have been behind most of their career and end up with an extra 20% or 30% in equipment for almost no cost.  We didn't have that organic experience, and so this feels like abusing what LA buyoff is for (yes, I realize its for reducing mediocre templates with LAs that don't level well, but how many of you have those?).

I am OK with:
LA +2, all bought off, at ECL 11, with you guys just not getting 3k XP for the first encounter.  Here its purely a paperwork issue (and I understand the need to reduce it), and I'm fine with you guys just going to L11 just for that purpose.

I'll be using the CR system as normal, so the (now) ECL 11's will be getting XP at a slightly faster rate.

Does this make sense?  Is this reasonable?

This is pretty much exactly what I wanted, and is just a misunderstanding over what you meant by "you guys owe me the extra XP."

And actually Buyoff serves the other purpose of recognizing that no one in their right mind would ever play a Caster with LA without it, thus allowing any LA to exist in that setting, not just the weak ones, since all are definitionally weak.

Also, Phaedrus is picking a race with +2 LA that is probably the worst +2 LA in the game. I mean, Gith are to +2 LA what Tieflings are to +1.

[jameswilliamogle]

Hrm.  Psionic Plane Shift is pretty strong, though...  But that is a strong point.

Does anyone mind me changing the Githzerai to LA +1.5?  This would entail him buying 1 LA off at normal price / time then another off at 5th level (essentially, paying 4000 xp instead of 8000 xp).

PM me if you have objections; 12 h to get votes in.

[Prak, the Mad]

YES!  I had been thinking about that for a while, actually, but forgot to post it. 

It always bothered me that the atheists were evil in DnD...

To be fair, we're evil in real life too.

To be fair, the Ur Priest is more of a D&D LaVeyan Satanist. D&D atheists are known as Athars.
LaVey:


Anyway, about evilness, keep in mind the Ur Priest was originally introduced in the BoVD along with the Vasharans, evil humans who sought deicide.
seeing as how Baragos ranges from borderline evil to flatout homicidal, depending on how I've built him on any given go, I don't mind another evil character in the party.

[PhaedrusXY]

Ok, if I get to start as an 11th level Githzerai, I'm cool with playing one, however you wind up doing the XP. Here is what it will look like, I think. I'm dropping being "the healer", as it sounds like wezylithyx will be covering it, and it is a lot easier to do as a cleric or Ur-Priest than an ardent. I will be a "psychic archer".

Githzerai Ranger1/Ardent 5/Slayer 3/Witch Slayer 2
BAB/Grapple: +9/+13
Saves: F13 (7+3con+3enh), R14 (4+7dex+3enh), W18 (10+5wis+3enh)(+4 vs. Compulsion and Mind-Affecting)
AC: 27 (10+6armor+7dex+6monk-2), Touch 21, Flat-footed 20
HD: 8+6d6+4d8+33 (8+24+20+33= 85 hp)
Attacks: Unarmed Strike +13 (1d8+4), Bow +18 (1d8+5)
Initiative: +9

Ability Scores:
Str 18 (16+2enh)
Dex 24 (14+6race+2enh+2level)
Con 16 (14+2enh)
Int 10 (12-2race)
Wis 20 (16+2race+2enh)
Cha 8

Feats: Track (ranger1), Practiced Manifester: Ardent (flaw1), Point Blank Shot (flaw2), Precise Shot (1), Linked Power (3), Wpn Focus: Longbow (Mantle bonus), Psionic Meditation (6), EK: Feat Leech (9), Rapid Shot (wand of Heroics)
Flaws and Traits: Aggressive (+2 ini, -1 AC), Vulnerable (-1 AC), Murky Eyed
Skills (ranks): Hide +11 (4), Move Silently +11 (2), Sense Motive +15 (8), Spot +21 (14), Listen +11 (4), Knowledge: Dungeoneering +4 (4), Concentration +15 (10), Psicraft +3 (1), Autohypnosis +10 (1), Know: Rel +4 (4) (if not CC for Ardent), Tumble +9 (1)(cc)  (54 total)

Mantles: Freedom, Guardian, Conflict, Time

Powers known: (PPs 75 (46+27wis+2race) , DC 15+level)
1st: Thicken Skin, Dimension Hop, Metaphysical Weapon
2nd: Hustle, Damp Power, Feat Leech
3rd: Time Hop
4th: Fly
5th: Anticipatory Strike

PLAs: 3xday Inertial Armor, Daze, Catfall, Concussion Blast; 1xday Plane Shift (ML=1/2CL, DC=10+1/2CL+Cha mod)
Other Special Abilities: SR 16 (5+CL), Darkvision 60', Favored Enemy: Aberrations (+2), Favored Enemy: Illithid (+2), Wild Empathy, Mettle, Smite Spirit Sharer, Evasion (ring), Brain Nausea, Lucid Buffer

Psicrystal Feats: (it has 8 HD) Hidden Talent (Vigor)(retrained from Alertness), Psionic Shot (3), Greater Psionic Shot (6)

Progression:
1 Ranger 1 Track (ranger1), Practiced Manifester: Ardent (flaw1), Point Blank Shot (flaw2), Rapid Shot (1)
2 Ardent 1 [Freedom, Guardian], Thicken Skin, Dimension Hop
3 Ardent 2 [Conflict], Metaphysical Weapon, Weapon Focus (Longbow) (mantle bonus), Linked Power
4 Ardent 3 Damp Power
5 Ardent 4 Hustle
6 Ardent 5 [Time] EK: Feat Leech, Time Hop
7 Slayer 1
8 Witch Slayer 1 [Smite spirit sharer]
9 Witch Slayer 2 Psionic Meditation, [Mettle]
10 Slayer 2 Fly
11 Slayer 3 Anticipatory Strike

Items: Gloves of Dex +2 and Str +2 (8,000), Periapt of Wis +2 (4,000), +1 Deepcrystal Composite Longbow w/Wand Chamber (+4 Str)(3,900), Cloak of Resistance +3 (9,000), Amulet of Health +2 (4,000), Ring of Evasion (20,000), Eternal Wand of Heroics (4420, CL9, 90 mins, and I can't use it...), Boots of Speed (10,000), Healing Belt (750 gp), Monk's Belt (13,000), Oil of Bless Weapon x5 (250 gp), Efficient Quiver (1800), MW tools (+2 circ.): Concentration, Psicraft, MS, Spot, Listen, Concentration, Tumble, Sense Motive, Autohypnosis (450 gp), Lesser Metapsionic Rod of Extend (3000)

Wands (8250 gp total):
[spoiler]1st: Camouflage (+10 circ. hide, 10 min), Delay Poison (1 hr), Resist Energy (10 min, resist 10), Embrace the Wild (low-light vision, blindsense 30' or scent, +2 unnamed listen and spot, 10 min), Eyes of the Avoral (+8 racial Spot, 10 min), Guided Shot (normally in Wand Chamber)(ignore range, concealment, cover, for 1 round, swift action), Hawkeye (+50% range, +5 comp. Spot, 10 min), Omen of Peril (divination), Surefoot (+10 comp. to Balance, Climb, Jump, Tumble, don't lose Dex to AC when climbing, 10 min), Hunter's Mercy (swift action, next shot autohits and threatens a crit), Lesser Vigor (not a ranger spell)
[/spoiler]
other eternal wands to consider: Sign (+4 ini, cleric), Nerveskitter (+5 ini, wiz)
Psionic Tattoos (assuming James allows the Getting Wired stuff): Keen Edge, Touchsight

70,820/88,000 gp spent

It is going to suck not having Precise Shot, but I don't know how to work it in... Eternal Wand of Heroics

[mans0011]

Ok... screw githzerai, then. They're just not worth being behind two levels. Any problem with me retraining the psicrystal's starting Alertness feat for something useful, like Hidden Talent (so it can take psionic feats)?

Also, are you familiar with the Getting Wired Mind's Eye article? And Bacris' 3.5 update to it? Any problem with using that stuff?

The monster entry (feats and stat points, et cetera) are suggestions, just like all monster entries. You can choose different feats for your monsters than the ones that are suggested. Which brings me to another question, how can we do stats for psicrystals?

[jameswilliamogle]

You have to use the base stats listed, +1 / 4 levels.

@PhaedrusXY - I think there's an enhancement mod for precise shot for weapons, and under magic/psionic transparency there's an item for precise shot I think in CMage that works for spells (would translate over).