Author Topic: Survivability Lock/Crusader  (Read 3569 times)

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Nelith

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Survivability Lock/Crusader
« on: April 18, 2009, 06:53:14 PM »
Well, I've been trying to decide what to play for a campaign. I've been chosen by the group as the tank. I'm supposed to be the one who gets hit. What I'm thinking is either a survivability warlock who focuses on EB, but then again, I like the Tome of Battle, so maybe Crusader(one of my brother's friends once made one that was pretty much invincible, like immune to damage)

Anyone have any advice on this? And yes, it does need to be on this board, I'm going to need this to be really good, because my DM is really hard on us(I hear he's going to try to pull ALL the Elder Evils on us! :bigeye

Risada

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Re: Survivability Lock/Crusader
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2009, 06:56:48 PM »
Man, you're in for a rough ride  :smirk

If only you didn't want to be a tank, I would suggest Dragonfire Inpiration Bardsader...

I'm not that knowledgeable in this area, but if you want to go through the Lockdown route, don't forget to pick Thicket of Blades stance, and the feats Stand Still and Combat Reflexes...

Shadowhunter

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Re: Survivability Lock/Crusader
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2009, 07:31:13 PM »
For survivability and tanking, Crusader will be the better choice.
Depending on wheter you're straped for feats or not, there's pretty much two routes:
Stand Still and Combat Reflexes.
Or.
Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Karmic Strike/Robilar's Gambit, Improved Trip, Defensive Sweep.

Of course, providing you're looking for a lockdown build. But that's the best use for a Tank.

The former can take a bit more of a beating, since it won't be lowering it's effective AC due to Karmic/Robilars, but the latter can deal more damage. However, not all foes are trip-able and it's effectiveness takes longer to achive whereas pretty much anything is "Stand-still-able".

Be sure to check out the "Tome of Battle for Dummies" in the Handbook section, that ought to help.
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Re: Survivability Lock/Crusader
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2009, 07:53:28 PM »
While it's not as good as thicket, I've always though that the Knight ability to make adjacent squares dificult terrain could be abused by combining it with Step of the Wind.  Throw in some tripping stuff and it sounds like a workable combo.

BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Survivability Lock/Crusader
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2009, 07:54:41 PM »
Heck, Knight 5/Crusader 15 still gets 9th level maneuvers :P

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sendmeanewid

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Re: Survivability Lock/Crusader
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2009, 08:08:57 PM »
I've never perused the Elder Evils supplement.

Perhaps those who have could summarize the sorts of nastiness they might dish, to help focus your build.  In my experience, survivability tends to be relative, and true immortality tends to get houseruled.

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Re: Survivability Lock/Crusader
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2009, 08:36:59 PM »
I've never perused the Elder Evils supplement.

Perhaps those who have could summarize the sorts of nastiness they might dish, to help focus your build.  In my experience, survivability tends to be relative, and true immortality tends to get houseruled.

5 free feats, 'nuff said. Most of them Cha, Wis, and Con focused. One of them in particular is amazing. Let me list a few good ones.

Evil's Blessing: Standard action to use, but lasts 5 rounds. Cha to one save, at will. If you have a Cohort or ally who has White Raven Tactics and is willing to blow it on you at the start of each encounter, then the Standard action is negligible. Better yet, multiple Belts of Battle for the extra Full Round so you can get in a Strike too.

Chosen of Evil: Not bad in and of itself, as the Con damage can be negated through Shape Soulmeld (Strongheart Vest) or being bound to Naberius. But the feat is a requirement for the next one up, Master's Will.

Master's Will: As an immediate action, roll a d20. If the result is odd, you get a +8 bonus to something for the next d20 roll you make (save, attack, skill check, etc). If you roll even, you take HP damage equal to your Character Level. Guess what? You lose nothing for using the feat, no matter the result of the roll. Odd number? Initiate Tombstone Mountain Strike. Even number? Full Attack, heal the damage with Martial Spirit and get the +4 bonus to Attacks/Damage for one round.

Insane Defiance: Works wonders if you have an enchanter in the party!

Willing Deformity: In and of itself, this is a bad feat and a wasted slot. But if you take it with the Elder Evils bonus feats, you actually have a use for it. While you can only select bonus feats from the list in the Elder Evils book itself, having this feat allows you to take Deformity (Tall) from Heroes of Horror and Deformity (Obese) from BoVD. One gives you a natural 10ft reach, the other improves your Con score at the cost of 2 points of Dex (but you don't care about Dex, you actually want enemies to hit you because you're an effing Crusader!).

Deformity (Madness): It hurts, but the benefits are amazing. Blanket immunity to Mind-Affecting spells and abilities, and a bonus to one Will save/minute equal to 1/2 your CL, at the cost of 4 points of Wis? I said it hurts, but it is worth it considering the next feat down.

Reflexive Psychosis: Let me get this straight; I can take an immediate action to gain DR 5/-, and the only thing that happens is I'm Confused at the start of my next turn for one round? Wait, doesn't the prereqs for this feat give me a blanket immunity to Mind Affecting spells/abilities? Isn't Confusion a Mind Affecting ability? *Checks* Yes, they are. This is, effectively, a constant DR 5/- for a Crusader. Which means it's effectively DR 10/-, considering your Steely Resolve ability. At level 1, that's pretty fucking retarded.




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BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Survivability Lock/Crusader
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2009, 08:39:44 PM »
And easily swapped for any feat you want :)
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Re: Survivability Lock/Crusader
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2009, 09:00:14 PM »
And easily swapped for any feat you want :)

Not to mention infinite. Devoting yourself to an Elder Evil is 1/4 of the process to get infinite feats.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Nelith

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Re: Survivability Lock/Crusader
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2009, 10:45:54 PM »
Well, the best way to get at the Evils that I could find was touch attacks. Their touch ACs suck. And, I wanted to be a tank because if we didn't have one, they would actually attack the casters, which isn't a good situation most of the time. That's part of why I was thinkin warlock, the EB is a ranged touch attack. However, the crusader has many good manuvers to exploit.

And what's this about devoting yourself to an Evil?EDIT: Nevermind, found it.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2009, 10:51:47 PM by Nelith »

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Survivability Lock/Crusader
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2009, 11:17:13 PM »
Well, the best way to get at the Evils that I could find was touch attacks. Their touch ACs suck. And, I wanted to be a tank because if we didn't have one, they would actually attack the casters, which isn't a good situation most of the time. That's part of why I was thinkin warlock, the EB is a ranged touch attack. However, the crusader has many good manuvers to exploit.

And what's this about devoting yourself to an Evil?EDIT: Nevermind, found it.


If their Touch AC is low, then a Wand of Wraithstrike is the best bet. Cheap, efficient, and takes a Swift action to activate.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

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Re: Survivability Lock/Crusader
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2009, 10:54:24 AM »
Well, the best way to get at the Evils that I could find was touch attacks. Their touch ACs suck. And, I wanted to be a tank because if we didn't have one, they would actually attack the casters, which isn't a good situation most of the time. That's part of why I was thinkin warlock, the EB is a ranged touch attack. However, the crusader has many good manuvers to exploit.

And what's this about devoting yourself to an Evil?EDIT: Nevermind, found it.


If their Touch AC is low, then a Wand of Wraithstrike is the best bet. Cheap, efficient, and takes a Swift action to activate.
With a dip of what for a crusader to get UMD?

I might suggest one house-rule a DM of mine approved once, and that was applying the Battle Sorceror mod to a normal Bard. Full BAB and IC for the cost of a spell/day? Hell yeah. But a Bard dip is never bad for a Crusader, I guess, and perhaps Factotum would be another possibility.

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Re: Survivability Lock/Crusader
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2009, 12:57:37 PM »
Not to mention infinite. Devoting yourself to an Elder Evil is 1/4 of the process to get infinite feats.
Not to stray (because feats are where its at)... but where exactly is the text that allows said extra feats. My google-fu has failed me.
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BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Survivability Lock/Crusader
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2009, 01:06:05 PM »
Not to mention infinite. Devoting yourself to an Elder Evil is 1/4 of the process to get infinite feats.
Not to stray (because feats are where its at)... but where exactly is the text that allows said extra feats. My google-fu has failed me.
Elder Evils
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Re: Survivability Lock/Crusader
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2009, 04:35:00 PM »
Not to mention infinite. Devoting yourself to an Elder Evil is 1/4 of the process to get infinite feats.
Not to stray (because feats are where its at)... but where exactly is the text that allows said extra feats. My google-fu has failed me.

Page 10 of Elder Evils. Worshiping one grants you 1 bonus feat, plus an additional bonus feat for every 5 HD he has. You then Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle them away, shift alignment to Chaotic Neutral or something to forsake the Elder Evil. The game tries to remove the 5 bonus feats you have, but sees that they are no longer Vile feats granted by the Elder Evil and takes nothing away. You then shift back to worshiping an Elder Evil, gaining 5 more feats.

Somewhat costly, but very useful.


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Re: Survivability Lock/Crusader
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2009, 08:18:02 PM »
Page 10 of Elder Evils. Worshiping one grants you 1 bonus feat, plus an additional bonus feat for every 5 HD he has. You then Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle them away, shift alignment to Chaotic Neutral or something to forsake the Elder Evil. The game tries to remove the 5 bonus feats you have, but sees that they are no longer Vile feats granted by the Elder Evil and takes nothing away. You then shift back to worshiping an Elder Evil, gaining 5 more feats.

Somewhat costly, but very useful.
I have to nitpick since this has always bothered me. The above statement is crap. There is zero rule support for this interpretation. When you are intelligent and evil, you may dedicate yourself to an elder evil. Thereafter, you are dedicated. End of discussion. There's no "forsaking" or "rededicating." You can get some free feats and DCFS them, but that's about it.
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Nelith

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Re: Survivability Lock/Crusader
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2009, 09:06:44 PM »
Well, that doesn't really matter anyways, we're not allowed to be evil in this campaign... Right now I'm thinking just a basic fighting build, not even relying too heavily on manuvers or special things, and I'll eventually be getting gear to build my power some more. I might go a little into Kensai, it's pretty useful as a tank, though the loss of BAB will be a hit to me...

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Re: Survivability Lock/Crusader
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2009, 01:53:48 AM »
I have to nitpick since this has always bothered me. The above statement is crap. There is zero rule support for this interpretation. When you are intelligent and evil, you may dedicate yourself to an elder evil. Thereafter, you are dedicated. End of discussion. There's no "forsaking" or "rededicating." You can get some free feats and DCFS them, but that's about it.

Hence the reason I originally posted it in TO when I first found it. No DM I know would let something like that happen more than once without some serious consequences because of it (the method is grounds for Inevitables to step in, at the very least).


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