Author Topic: What Counts as "Longbow"?  (Read 9963 times)

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kevin_video

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What Counts as "Longbow"?
« on: April 18, 2009, 04:45:23 AM »
I need help with this because according to this site's Archery Handbook forum, the aquatic longbow counts as a longbow for Weapon Focus. Does anyone have proof of this actually being the case because I currently have one, and my DM says it doesn't, and that the Gameologists are retards for thinking so. If there was some way to show him that it actually IS considered a longbow, it wouldn't be a problem.
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j0lt

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Re: What Counts as "Longbow"?
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2009, 05:20:04 AM »
Let me try to help.

The weapon you have is an Aquatic LONGBOW.

Anyone who says that this isn't a longbow is either blind, can't read, brain damaged, or looking at the wrong page.
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kevin_video

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Re: What Counts as "Longbow"?
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2009, 01:30:57 PM »
See, that's the problem. He says that despite being a "longbow", it doesn't count as one due to the fact that it's only got a 60' range instead of the usual 110'. This means that "logically" someone who picks it up randomly will not know how to use it because of the difference in distance you have when firing. He also said that if an aquatic longbow was the same as a regular longbow, aquatic elves wouldn't need to have the aquatic longbow proficiency. They'd have just kept it as the standard longbow one. Finally, Weapon Focus is meant for a specific weapon. An aquatic longbow is a specific weapon. Therefore, an Weapon Focus (longbow) and Weapon Focus (aquatic longbow) are two totally different weapons.

This is what I need help with. Convincing him. Until he sees it written down, and not on a website where people can just lie, he won't accept it. It sucks.
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sendmeanewid

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Re: What Counts as "Longbow"?
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2009, 03:52:24 PM »
Direct your DM to Races of Faerun, page 157:

Quote
Longbow, Aquatic:  This weapon, favored by aquatic elves, employs a special kelp string that dampens vibration and turbulence.  The aquatic longbow functions as a normal longbow except when sea arrows are fired from it underwater.

It goes on to explain the ranged increment quality of the bow.

If that isn't enough to convince him, Unearthed Arcana has rules for Weapon Groups which may apply in this situation.  And if that doesn't work, you'll have to save up to apply the Aptitude property (Tome of Battle), find a way to have Heroics cast upon you, or take a level of Warblade to change around your feats.  Or just take WF: (DM fiat) and call it a day.

I'm not entirely sure what the Archery Handbook means when it references the "Weapon Focus" tree with respect to various ranged weapons.  Furthermore, there actually are mighty composite versions of aquatic longbows available, so that needs to be changed.  Perhaps you should bring this to the author's attention?

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Re: What Counts as "Longbow"?
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2009, 04:04:32 PM »
I'm not entirely sure what the Archery Handbook means when it references the "Weapon Focus" tree with respect to various ranged weapons.
Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialisation/Ranged Weapon Mastery/Greater Weapon Focus/Greater Weapon Specialisation/Weapon Supremacy
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kevin_video

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Re: What Counts as "Longbow"?
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2009, 08:58:43 PM »
Ah sweet! Thank you. Hopefully he accepts that.
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j0lt

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Re: What Counts as "Longbow"?
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2009, 12:04:31 AM »
See, that's the problem. He says that despite being a "longbow", it doesn't count as one due to the fact that it's only got a 60' range instead of the usual 110'. This means that "logically" someone who picks it up randomly will not know how to use it because of the difference in distance you have when firing. He also said that if an aquatic longbow was the same as a regular longbow, aquatic elves wouldn't need to have the aquatic longbow proficiency. They'd have just kept it as the standard longbow one. Finally, Weapon Focus is meant for a specific weapon. An aquatic longbow is a specific weapon. Therefore, an Weapon Focus (longbow) and Weapon Focus (aquatic longbow) are two totally different weapons.

This is what I need help with. Convincing him. Until he sees it written down, and not on a website where people can just lie, he won't accept it. It sucks.

lol, wait, it's a longbow that doesn't count as a longbow?
Yeesh!

As for logic: I have some experience with archery, and I can tell you that going between a 40 lb. bow and 60 lb. bow doesn't make it any different to shoot, the arrow just drops sooner with the lower pull.  But since I'm on a message board, and most therefore be lying, your GM can google it for himself.
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Re: What Counts as "Longbow"?
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2009, 12:12:48 AM »
I consider myself a pretty big stickler for the rules, but I find it so hard to imagine caring about such a small point.  Good luck, man.

kevin_video

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Re: What Counts as "Longbow"?
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2009, 01:56:36 AM »
His reply:

Races of Faerun: 3.0.
Stormwrack: 3.5.

Made by the aquatic elves, the aquatic longbow functions as a normal ranged weapon out of the water, with a 60-foot range increment.

AQUATIC ELF LONGBOWS AND ELVEN LONGBOWS ARE TWO DIFFERENT WEAPONS. PERIOD. END OF DISCUSSION.


No go. No Weapon Focus for me. Thanks for the help anyways everyone.

EDIT: I should note that when he mentions elven longbow, he refers to bows that were made with "Elvencraft" which gives the bow a secondary status of being a quarterstaff as well. My bow transforms from Aquatic to Elven thanks to it's minor alteration +1 ability.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2009, 02:18:46 AM by kevin_video »
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Prak, the Mad

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Re: What Counts as "Longbow"?
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2009, 02:29:04 AM »
alright, at this point, I have to ask several questions:
1: how big a deal is this to you?
2: is the dm a friend?
3: is this the only game in town?

because that's straight fucking bullshit.

DaveoftheRave

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Re: What Counts as "Longbow"?
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2009, 02:43:08 AM »
What is the DM hoping to accomplish?

Does he like to make rulings like this just so that he can feel powerful?

Find another game.

kevin_video

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Re: What Counts as "Longbow"?
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2009, 03:14:00 AM »
@Prak
1) A pretty big deal. I want Weapon Focus to get Weapon Specialization and Ranged Weapon Mastery Piercing. This way I can actually hit stuff. I'm a CR 8, and the DM's sending us up against stuff with AC 30, DR 10/- (not always, but still more times than I've got fingers). My magic composite bow only does 1d8+3 (magic +1, str +1, point blank shot +1), with a total attack of +11/+6. Rapid Shot and Arrow Swarm (Targetteer feat) makes that -2 for 1 additional attack or -5 for two. Improved Rapid Shot reduces those penalties by 2. I want to be able to hit stuff, and do damage. Right now, I'm not doing that unless it's a critical.
2) I wouldn't say that, no. He was advertising, and I was looking for a game. I joined his group a couple of months ago.
3) Pretty much, yeah. There are other players, but almost no DMs. At least not for D&D. They've pretty much all retired, and are doing MMOs. The only other group that I've ever actually been with, we had a major falling out. That group made your characters for you, and if you weren't their absolute bestest friend in the whole wide world, you got a fairly useless character (ie a monk 5/shadow dancer 5 drow, or a cleric 6/barbarian 6 elf, in a CR 18 campaign with everyone else being monster characters, including an adult gold dragon and orge mage sorcerer 10, and you're always in daylight).

@DaveoftheRave
1) I have no idea.

2) Put it this way. Before we started the game, he gave us his house rules. It's 19 pages long. He's also stingy on gold, which is why Vow of Poverty is not allowed.

3) This is the other game. I'd have to leave the city to find more.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2009, 03:15:50 AM by kevin_video »
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ZeroSpace

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Re: What Counts as "Longbow"?
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2009, 03:39:38 AM »
Yup, sounds like your DM has the 'Iron Fist' trait. What you do next depends on a few things. How desperate are you for a game? How far are you willing to travel, and is there anyone else a little farther away? Will you be able to induce amnesia with one swift smack to the head? Are you allowed to write a new character without a horrendous restriction on level/feats/money/gear/sourcebooks?

If your answers to the last three are no, no, no, in any order you choose, you may need to leave the game. If your answer to the first is also a 'very', you may just have to deal with it.

On a side note, how badly do you need the Aquatic Longbow? And would you be allowed to retrain feats to get said feat chain?
YAY! I get to go to the SPECIAL hell!

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kevin_video

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Re: What Counts as "Longbow"?
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2009, 03:52:01 AM »
I just put my character up on the board, http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4215.0 in hopes that someone can say something about making it worthwhile.

My answer to all of these are pretty much what you think they are. I was without a game for over two years before I found this group. I like D&D, and considering I already live in town, and the next city that's got a D&D game going is quite literally three hours away, I'm not so desperate as to travel that far. No to amnesia, no to a new character because we only play the decendants of our previous characters (not to mention we don't even have the equivalent amount of gold for the level we already are so I'd essentially be richer at the same level). And even if my current character dies, despite the DM disallowing our characters to be resurrected, we just come back as Ghostwalkers (which means we lose another level in conjunction with all the LA's we normally get from being behind).

The aquatic longbow is very necessary. It's a sea adventure campaign. Half of our adventures are underwater. The best I can hope for is making the bow from scratch, and giving it the +1 Aquatic ability, but I'll never get that kind of money for a very long time. Right now I'm trying to save up for the Energy Bow from the D&D cartoon series. I might have a prayer with that one. Just modify it some with Aquatic, Splitting, and make it elvencraft. The chances of that being possible are pretty much 0 though. At least not until I get to be level 20.
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Tetsubo

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Re: What Counts as "Longbow"?
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2009, 05:29:16 AM »
In the real world bows in general and longbows in particular came in many, many varieties. Any person that is skilled in the use of a bow will be able to judge the 'pull' and most other of the bows characteristics after a few shots. 'Bow' is a category, not a single specific item.

Is there any reason your GM is being this pointlessly nitpicking? Because I'd go find a new GM...

Prak, the Mad

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Re: What Counts as "Longbow"?
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2009, 06:50:07 AM »
yeah, honestly, I looked at your other thread, and it's time to cut your losses. This DM doesn't know what he's doing, which is a situation I know all too well. My friends are great guys, and they mean well, but I practically have to drag them kicking and screaming to a point where they run an even half way decent game.

As Sinfire said in that thread, quit. try PbP, with the right DM, it can be pretty good. Out of curiosity, what city are you in? maybe someone on here is running a game in your city.

sendmeanewid

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Re: What Counts as "Longbow"?
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2009, 12:36:33 PM »
And even if my current character dies, despite the DM disallowing our characters to be resurrected, we just come back as Ghostwalkers (which means we lose another level in conjunction with all the LA's we normally get from being behind).

You do realize that Ghostwalk is a 3.0 campaign supplement?  Best not point out the irony to your DM.

DaveoftheRave

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Re: What Counts as "Longbow"?
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2009, 12:36:56 PM »
I would ask him what he is trying to accomplish with that rule and any other rule you don't like.

If he has an actual answer then fine.  But if his answer is "B/c I say so" (which is not answering the question) or something similar then just leave the game.

It's supposed to be fun.  I have a boss at work, I don't want to have a boss when I play d&d.

In our group the players all have a say in the rules we play with because we all want to have fun.  That's the way it should be.

kevin_video

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Re: What Counts as "Longbow"?
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2009, 01:11:01 PM »
And even if my current character dies, despite the DM disallowing our characters to be resurrected, we just come back as Ghostwalkers (which means we lose another level in conjunction with all the LA's we normally get from being behind).

You do realize that Ghostwalk is a 3.0 campaign supplement?  Best not point out the irony to your DM.
Oh no, he knows full well that the Ghostwalker is 3.0 specifically. However, they did a 3.5 Remix on the Wizards forum http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-347888 that he uses.

@Tetsubo -- No, there's really no reason to be nitpicky, but that's just how he is. Our Thri-keen has four arms, and therefore has a four-armed axe. You should have seen the fight those two had over that one. Wow. We all stuck behind the thri-keen player, and the DM backed down, but it's different matter for my character because they know I'm probably right, but they can't find definitive proof to back me up.

@ Prak -- I cut my losses years ago with another group (who were all people I once called best friends), and basically am now limited to this group.

@ DaveoftheRave -- He's not trying to accomplish anything with the rule, he just has his own rules, and way of thinking. His reasoning is, is that they're different as stated above. That you couldn't possibly use both accurately because of how different they are.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2009, 01:38:32 PM by kevin_video »
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Tetsubo

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Re: What Counts as "Longbow"?
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2009, 02:17:47 PM »
And even if my current character dies, despite the DM disallowing our characters to be resurrected, we just come back as Ghostwalkers (which means we lose another level in conjunction with all the LA's we normally get from being behind).

You do realize that Ghostwalk is a 3.0 campaign supplement?  Best not point out the irony to your DM.
Oh no, he knows full well that the Ghostwalker is 3.0 specifically. However, they did a 3.5 Remix on the Wizards forum http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-347888 that he uses.

@Tetsubo -- No, there's really no reason to be nitpicky, but that's just how he is. Our Thri-keen has four arms, and therefore has a four-armed axe. You should have seen the fight those two had over that one. Wow. We all stuck behind the thri-keen player, and the DM backed down, but it's different matter for my character because they know I'm probably right, but they can't find definitive proof to back me up.

@ Prak -- I cut my losses years ago with another group (who were all people I once called best friends), and basically am now limited to this group.

@ DaveoftheRave -- He's not trying to accomplish anything with the rule, he just has his own rules, and way of thinking. His reasoning is, is that they're different as stated above. That you couldn't possibly use both accurately because of how different they are.

Then he is a fool. I'm sorry that you don't have a better game option. Because personally, I'd rather not play than play with such a twit.

With this logic a Ford drives *completely* differently than a Chevy. No similarity *at all*...

Or a pen with blue ink *must* use special paper that a pen with black ink *can't* use...

Fool.