Author Topic: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook  (Read 1202194 times)

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Omen of Peace

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
« Reply #140 on: September 24, 2008, 03:24:59 PM »
- To "D&D doesn't use decimals" I reply the maths don't lie ! :P
Over 12 dice things will average well so you'll get about 0.5*12 = 6 extra damage. Better than Weapon Spec but not worth a feat IMO. It does make you feel better in case you often roll badly. :)

Note that on a d6: 1->3, 2->3, 3-6 remain the same. (6 is the maximum, so you only increase the rolls to 3.)

- The Restful property is also 500gp. If you change armors often I agree the crystal's better.

- Still disagree with Ghost Touch but it's your guide. :)
I generally play with the DMG stacking rules, so combining items is not a big deal.
(The bracers and the gauntlets don't use the same slot btw !)
The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Steven Erikson

AfterCrescent

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
« Reply #141 on: September 24, 2008, 03:30:31 PM »
Note that on a d6: 1->3, 2->3, 3-6 remain the same. (6 is the maximum, so you only increase the rolls to 3.)
Nope. :P Your maths lies tos yous. ;)
Round up. The feat specifically says so. So 1-3 -> 4. :D

- The Restful property is also 500gp. If you change armors often I agree the crystal's better.
I was referring to the fact that the crystal can be put on a masterwork suit of armor, where as the property has to be put on +1 armor at least.

(The bracers and the gauntlets don't use the same slot btw !)
You're right. My bad. :blush
I usually tend to wear enchanted spiked gauntlets, so no room for those ;) But yeah, it all depends on how you play your clerics.
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Omen of Peace

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
« Reply #142 on: September 24, 2008, 04:25:37 PM »
Restful: aaah, get it. :)

Do we have different versions of Complete Champion ? Mine says "if the result of any damage roll you make is below average, you can increase it to one-half the maximum possible (rounded up)." For a d6 the maximum is 6 -> one half the max is 3. It's an integer, so rounding it up means it stays 3.
I could be making a mistake because English is not my mother tongue... but on the other hand I've taught (more advanced) maths in English... Tell me which step is wrong !
The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Steven Erikson

AfterCrescent

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
« Reply #143 on: September 24, 2008, 04:35:47 PM »
That's what I get for speed reading. Thought it said increase to the average (round up). Woops.
So...
A max Magic Missile does 5d4+5, max of 25 average of 17.5... So if you roll below an 18, you can increase it to 13 (1/2 of 25 is 12.5)?

Is that retarded or what? I feel like that's not how it should work... >.>
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carnivore

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
« Reply #144 on: September 24, 2008, 06:30:33 PM »
i have to take exception to this:

Quote
These are races that make terrible, terrible, horrible, makes me want to gouge out your eyes if you play them, choices for a cleric.  Hopefully you can see why.
<snip>


ElvesVarious - They are terrible clerics. Almost all either grant a bonus to Dex, penalty to Con, or both. Just bad choices.  For archery builds, they are okay, because of the Elf Domain, but Spell Compendium makes no requirement about being an elf to take the domain, so choose a better race and just revere elves or something.  And even if you choose elf, please, please, don't take one that has a con hit (Minus the ONE exception below).

Elf, HighWar Domain, but if they are required to take a Patron who does not have War as a Domain, Elves always can still use Bows.... say you want to be able to use "Raptor Arrows", these are Relics of Ehlonna, she does not provide access to the War Domain, and Requires Elf, Gnome, Halfling, 1/2 Elf Only as Clerics .... but Elves can use Bows and be Clerics without spending an additional feat or Multiclassing

with LA Buy off... Drow elves make nice Clerics:

Elf, Dark (Drow)Cleric(females)Elf, Dark (lesser)((i.e., Drow (lesser))(drow that do not have a level adjustment)(PGF p191)) also make great Clerics


bottom line.... i would say Elves can make great Clerics, if you work arround the low Con score... if they are Ranged Support(Archery or Spells) with Buffs and Summonings they dont need a high Con

the other Elf Subraces also make good Clerics .... especially since none have a Hit to Wis
 :D



« Last Edit: September 24, 2008, 06:32:18 PM by carnivore »

Omen of Peace

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
« Reply #145 on: September 24, 2008, 06:40:56 PM »
That's what I get for speed reading. Thought it said increase to the average (round up). Woops.
So...
A max Magic Missile does 5d4+5, max of 25 average of 17.5... So if you roll below an 18, you can increase it to 13 (1/2 of 25 is 12.5)?

Is that retarded or what? I feel like that's not how it should work... >.>
I interpret it as applying to every die. If a d4 comes up with a 1, it gets changed into a 2. It's better than Imbued Healing: Luck (except for the 1d2 crusader trick) but not quite worth a feat like I said. It's largely feel-good.
But yeah your interpretation is possible too.
The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Steven Erikson

AfterCrescent

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
« Reply #146 on: September 24, 2008, 08:27:48 PM »
@ carnivore: While I appreciate your comment, I hate elves. They make terrible clerics, imo. There's nothing about them that makes playing a cleric worthwhile, even with drow and LA buyoff (which is a terribly optional rule).  It's my opinion, and I'll stay by it. The con hit is a negative, and with negatives and no positives, they suck.

@ Omen: While Magic Missile may not be the best example, take a fireball from a warmage. It's the damage roll, which would be Xd6 + Int. It's weird, but that's how the feat works. Really odd...
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carnivore

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
« Reply #147 on: September 25, 2008, 06:54:07 PM »
@ carnivore: While I appreciate your comment, I hate elves. They make terrible clerics, imo. There's nothing about them that makes playing a cleric worthwhile, even with drow and LA buyoff (which is a terribly optional rule).  It's my opinion, and I'll stay by it. The con hit is a negative, and with negatives and no positives, they suck.
Elf versatility

Elf
Patron:Ehlonna

Cloistered Cleric 10/ Seeker of the Misty Isle 9/ Contemplative 1


Domains:
Knowledge(bonus)
Celerity..........  Haste, Improved Blink, Time Stop
Animal............... Shapechange
Travel .............. Dimension Door,Teleport,Fly,Greater Teleport
Magic ............... more nice things
Sun ................  extra more nice things

lots of skills.... nice class abilities.... fun to play... very Elf theme oriented[/spoiler]
[spoiler]Elf versatility #2

Wood Elf

Ranger 2/ Cloistered Cleric(spontaneous Domain Casting Variant(Healing)) 4/ Seeker of the Misty Isle 4/ Knight of the Raven 4/ Radient Servant of Ehlonna 5/ Contemplative 1

BAB +13
CL 17th

Domains:
Knowledge
Healing
Celerity
Travel
Sun
Animal
Plant

same as above.... but even better[/spoiler]
[spoiler]
Cleric Monk
Lesser Drow Elf(Female)
Patron:Eilistraee (L) CG
Domains granted:Chaos, Charm (FRCS), Drow (FRCS), Elf (FRCS), Good, Moon (FRCS), Portal (FRCS) OR Portal (alternate) (Under)
Fav Weapon:bastard sword

Domains Chosen:
Moon
Portal(PGtF)

 Monk 1/ Ardent 2/ Cleric 3/ Psychic Theurge 10/  xxxx 4 = any full spellcasting progressing class


Feats:
Practiced Manifester(Ardent)
Monastic Training(Psychic Theurge)(monk Bonus feat)
Tashalatora(Psychic Theurge) ...allows Psychic Theurge to Progress monk Abilities(Unarmed Damage,AC,FLURRY of Blows)

after that feel free to take any feats to customize as you like:

Improved Natural Attack
Intuitive Attack
Reserve feats
Domain Feats
DMM(Persistant) path also works well

everything is based on Wis ..... and can have BAB of Fighter(Divine Power) 17th lvl cleric, 20th lvl monk

could also go with a Zen Archery focus.... then just take: Solonor as Patron, Domains: Elf, War(Longbow)
[/spoiler]
[spoiler]
Undead Slayer .... Cleric 20
Gray Elf
Cloistered Cleric 20.... Patron(Ehlonna)
Domains:
Glory
Sun
Knowledge

32 point buy

10 Str(12-2 racial)
10 Dex(8 +2 racial)
12 Con(14-2 racial)
16 Int (14 +2 racial)
16 Wis
14 Cha

assume 3 level boosts go to Wisdom, and 2 level boosts go to Cha..... remember we are not counting items.

Feats:
1st lvl: Improved Turning
3rd lvl: Empower Turning
6th lvl: Extra Turning
9th lvl: Divine Energy Focus
12th lvl: Choosen of the Deathless
15th lvl: Quicken Turning
18th lvl: Disciple of the Sun

this makes a great Undead Slayer Cleric .... and it can easily be modified with very little reduction in Power to work in a CORE only environment[/spoiler]


i can make more if needed  ;)


 :D



AfterCrescent

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
« Reply #148 on: September 25, 2008, 08:22:12 PM »
what is it that makes them so bad ... in your Opinion? ....
The fact that they have one penalty and no bonuses for being clerics.
Quote
it appears that ONLY the Con penalty is giving you a bad impression... which is false, also the boost to Dex helps with Ref saves and Initiative checks, and Dex based skill checks
I'm confused. Are you saying that the Con penalty isn't a bad thing or that there are more? If it's the former, WRONG. If it's the latter, please let me know what helps prove my point :D

Con is a vital stat in a game where HP determines who gets to live. A con penalty hurts your HP, Concentration, and Fort save, all of which are important.

Dex boosts Reflex (which is already crappy, so why bother?), Initiative (a valid point, but Dex is a dump stat for most clerics, so it's very situational), and Dex based skills A) suck for the most part and B) don't matter since Clerics. Are. Not. Skill. Monkeys. (in general; there are of course exceptions)
Quote
Again. Not skill monkeys. So those bonuses are MAYBE helpful at lower levels, and then quickly become worthless. Low light vision... Who cares? How many races have LLV or even better, DARKVISION! Automatic search would be nice if we were skill monkeys. Guess what? Yup. Clerics are not skill monkeys. I feel like I'm repeating, but unless you're focusing on one aspect of playing a cleric, these things are NOT helpful.
Quote
they have Immunities that many other races dont have, and get boosts to Saves vs Enchantments
Situational at best. And nothing that specifically helps CLERICS.
Quote
they make better Clerics than Warforged(if you want... you make a Warforged Cleric ECL 10 25pt buy, and i will make a Gray Elf Cleric ECL 10, and we compare)..... but they simply need to be played Differently
I'm sure if we looked at it, Warforged have more of those 'situational' benefits that you seem so fond of, but you are right, they just need to be played differently.

Quote
in most circumstances, Elves dont make Good Melee combatants .... but that is not all a Cleric is about, but even with a Melee Cleric Elves can be just as good as Humans with DMM(Persistant)
In most circumstance elves don't make good anythings. And no, even with DMM persist, they can't be as good as humans.

Quote
i think you are giving Elves a bad rap and pre-judging without allowing them the chance to defend themselves :debate
Think what you will. I've played elven rangers, clerics, wizards, and paladins. I don't like elves. They are a weak racial choice in general. For clerics, save one of the exceptions, elves make bad choices. Are there worse choices? Yes. Are there better? Yes.

Quote
what would it take to prove that Elves make good Clerics... here are some tries:
Nothing. You like elves. That's fine. I don't. Mechanically they aren't a good choice, and you can't 'prove' otherwise. :D
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ninjarabbit

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
« Reply #149 on: September 25, 2008, 10:05:07 PM »
Elves are a solid choice for clerics if only for the elf domain. It takes much less work to make a cleric archer work with an elf than it does with other races due to the elf domain and bow proficiency and the +2 dex is nice because most of the archery feats have a dex requirement.

Elves are a good choice for the spellstitched necopolitian cloistered clerics which I'm fond of because the con penalty doesn't manner for undead and you get nothing but benefits from being an elf.

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
« Reply #150 on: September 25, 2008, 10:11:35 PM »
Technically speaking, the spell compendium lists no requisites required for taking the elf domain. It's just as reasonable to take it for "being raised by elves" as it is for being an elf.

Spellstiched doesn't have a LA, last I checked, which means it's not viable to be a PC without houseruling. And I've already shown (unless I forgot to do that) why necropolitan is okay, but not as awesome as it's usually thought.  Likewise there are plenty of other races that you could go undead with and still get nothing but benefits from being an elf. ;)
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carnivore

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
« Reply #151 on: September 26, 2008, 07:29:23 AM »
The fact that they have one penalty and no bonuses for being clerics.
what is the thing that helps Warforged be good Clerics.... Penalty to Spell casting Stat? No ... Penalty to Turn Undead Stat? NO
but they have a Bonus to Con and that seems to be the only thing that makes them Great for being a CLERIC?...what about Goblins... :
Quote
GoblinsVarious - No. Too much emphasis on Dex and even then they're still bad.  They may seem like a decent stealth-type choice, but they're not. It's a trap. Even the best goblin subrace is a bad choice.
Aquatic goblins
-2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma. Aquatic goblins are hardy creatures, but weaker than many races.
An aquatic goblin has a swim speed of 30 feet.
Thievery: Aquatic goblins get a +2 racial bonus on Disable Device and Sleight of Hand checks.
An aquatic goblin's racial bonus on Move Silently and Ride checks is only +2. Aquatic goblins are known for riding Medium sharks.

this makes for a great Cleric... especially if they were Cloistered Clerics... like this:

Aquatic goblin
Cloistered Cleric 20

Domains:
Trickery: Add Bluff, Disguise, and Hide to your list of cleric class skills.
Travel: Add Survival to your list of cleric class skills.
Knowledge: Add all Knowledge skills to your list of cleric class skills.

Feats:
Knowledge Devotion
Criminal Background(city of Stormreach)... makes Bluff, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand Class Skills, and gives boost to Sense Motive and Gather Info

what does this give you?... a great Skill Monkey who is also a FULL Divine Spell Caster and has Full Turning abilities... and is fun and Easy to play... and also gets these racial abilities:

Aquatic goblins
-2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma. 
An aquatic goblin has a swim speed of 30 feet.
Thievery: Aquatic goblins get a +2 racial bonus on Disable Device and Sleight of Hand checks.
+2 racial bonus on Move Silently and Ride checks.
Small size:30 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc.

and you say this is a BAD Race for a Cleric?

Quote
Nothing. You like elves. That's fine. I don't. Mechanically they aren't a good choice, and you can't 'prove' otherwise. :D
what gets me is that you make this blanket statement: "These are races that make terrible, terrible, horrible, makes me want to gouge out your eyes if you play them, choices for a cleric.  Hopefully you can see why."

this is not true... these races are ones that you do not like, and do not play, but that is your Opinion, it is not a Fact... since i can make Great Clerics from them to perform many tasks easily..... they just do not conform to you liking
 :D

AfterCrescent

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
« Reply #152 on: September 26, 2008, 05:36:53 PM »
what is the thing that helps Warforged be good Clerics.... Penalty to Spell casting Stat? No ... Penalty to Turn Undead Stat? NO
but they have a Bonus to Con and that seems to be the only thing that makes them Great for being a CLERIC?...
Maybe it's their crapload of immunities? Maybe it's their natural weapons or viable racial feats? Maybe it's the fact that they make kickass melee clerics (which is specifically what I mention them being good at).  Con is a bonus, true, but it is NOT the only bonus. Please read A) what I posted and B) the actual race.  If you can't draw your own conclusions, that's not my fault.  Immunity to energy drain is about 4,000 times more useful than immunity to sleep. Seriously, I know you like elves and think they're better than I think they are, but the only reason they MAY be viable is with a skill-monkey focused cloistered cleric. Otherwise they don't get enough going for them to be considered awesome.

Are elves an okay race? Yes. I admit that. Do they make an okay almost anything? Sure, why not. They make OKAY clerics. But this is an optimization handbook. They just aren't GOOD. They don't have enough bonuses to make GOOD clerics when so many other races do.

Quote
what about Goblins... :
<snip>
and you say this is a BAD Race for a Cleric?
Yes. Goblins, in general make bad clerics. Can you take two OPTIONAL things (a race, and a class) and make it viable? Yes. Does that make it good? NO!!

This is the very important part, carnivore. Not everyone allows UA. Some still stick to core only. There are all kinds of combinations that can make a bad race into a decent race, but that doesn't make it a decent race IN GENERAL. It's still a bad race, just with an exception.

And further, for the record, all you did with that example is show that a cloistered cleric can be of almost any race and still be good. Replace the goblin with a Strongheart Halfing. Or any of the gnomes. Possibly even a kobold if you want go into the optimized section. The character will be better.

Quote
what gets me is that you make this blanket statement: "These are races that make terrible, terrible, horrible, makes me want to gouge out your eyes if you play them, choices for a cleric.  Hopefully you can see why."

this is not true... these races are ones that you do not like, and do not play, but that is your Opinion, it is not a Fact... since i can make Great Clerics from them to perform many tasks easily..... they just do not conform to you liking
 :D
Clerics are one of the top 5 strongest classes in the game. Possibly the strongest (I know that is debatable). You can take any race and make a GREAT CLERIC from it. That's just the fact. It doesn't mean that the race makes your cleric better. It just demonstrates how crazy strong clerics are.  I already showed you how elves have very situational bonuses and nothing that DIRECTLY effects your being a cleric.  I could do the same for the goblin example, but then I'd feel like I was demeaning you. I don't want to do that. Elves can make great clerics, yes. But compared to other races, which is what I did, they aren't good. They're average at best, but I didn't make an average category. I made a Broken category (elves don't fit here), a Good category (for those races that have direct benefits to clerics, which elves don't fit into), and a Leftover category (i.e. an average and bad combined category, which elves fit into).

This is the Min/Max area of BG. I strongly suggest you go listen to their podcast on what Min/Maxing is. I don't mean that as an insult, but I feel like you're trying to make elves seem better because of a fluff reason. Mechanically speaking, they're average.  You can make a mechanically superior Cleric without an elf. That's just simple fact.
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carnivore

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
« Reply #153 on: September 26, 2008, 06:16:54 PM »
fine....

what race would you suggest for a Core only game.... 25 pt buy, .... role: Cleric Archer?

in a Core+Complete .... what race would you suggest for a Cleric of Ehlonna?



 :D



AfterCrescent

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
« Reply #154 on: September 26, 2008, 06:26:15 PM »
Human.
The cake is a lie.
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carnivore

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
« Reply #155 on: September 26, 2008, 06:48:38 PM »
incorrect... humans cannot be Clerics of Ehlonna... as per PHB

 :D

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
« Reply #156 on: September 26, 2008, 07:15:36 PM »
I'm gonna call bullshit unless you can provide a direct quote saying only elves can be Clerics of Ehlonna. And I don't mean that table (6-2) that suggests deities for races if you are having trouble picking one.
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Lektor

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
« Reply #157 on: September 27, 2008, 09:59:04 AM »
Eh isn't Ehlonna the PHB halfling god?

Tshern

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
« Reply #158 on: September 27, 2008, 10:56:42 AM »
Both elf and halfling actually, but IIRC gnomes and half-elves worship Ehlonna too. Yondalla is more exclusively for halflings.

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carnivore

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Re: The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
« Reply #159 on: September 27, 2008, 01:02:27 PM »
I'm gonna call bullshit unless you can provide a direct quote saying only elves can be Clerics of Ehlonna. And I don't mean that table (6-2) that suggests deities for races if you are having trouble picking one.
i am away from books now.. but heres your answer

i did not say only Elves can be Clerics of Ehlonna..... to clear things up open the PHB to the Section on Clerics.

just look at the TEXT for Clerics in the PHB.... there is a section for choosing Patrons... it says if a Deity has certain Races Listed as Worshipers... then Clerics of that Deity "Must" be from those listed Races..... when you look at the chart, Ehlonna has Elves, 1/2 Elves, Gnomes, and Halflings listed under Worshipers..... thus her clerics must come from one of those races..... anything else is a Houserule and is not official

 :D