Author Topic: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10  (Read 8273 times)

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Tleilaxu_Ghola

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Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« on: April 10, 2009, 08:26:21 PM »
The Concept: Simple.  Play a dragon.  Why?  There's a lot of lore surrounding dragons, there are interesting idiosyncrasies associated with playing non humanoids, and well, fuck, they're just cool.  So, that's the goal here.  It's mostly for RP reasons.  Oh, and I want to do this starting at ECL 10.

The Problems: RP and CO don't always mix.  While it may be possible to play a dragon at ECL 10, thanks to dragonomicon rules, it's just generally regarded as a terribad idea.  Why?  You got a big fat LA, you've got good HD, but no real salient abilities to speak of, you're gonna be low on feats, you can't fiddle around with classes (because all your stuff is wrapped up into your racial LA and HD), and you can't even spend all your money on gear (you gotta maintain a horde).  Even worse, is that a lot of your ability to RP and interact is going to be limited unless you're a metallic dragon and even then only if the humanoids can be trusted to not bust a cap in your ass on sight.

Optimization Outlook: There really isn't much to speak of here.  I think, at ECL 10, your best options are going to be focusing on a fighter-role.  Sadly, that's feat intensive.  But there are ways around that limitation (I'm thinking about getting taint bonus feats, per HoH rules).  The way I see it, there are two options:

1. Make due with what you got: You can play a Brass Dragon or something similar at ECL 10.  Then fiddle-faddle with feats and items.
2. See if you can make yourself into a super mount: With a cart-before the horse playstyle, where you play the super mount, you could conceivably make playing a dragon worthwhile.  UNFORTUNATELY, I've discovered that standard supermount builds really aren't much use at ECL 10.  You can't really get that off the ground until ECL 12.

Request: So I come here, humbly requesting some help on this idea.  I want to be sure that I've completely exhausted all options on getting method number 2 to work before I give up and see if I can make option number 1 work.

Rules: Lets avoid awaken animal cheese, MM3 positive HD bullshit, and recursive dragon cohorts as much as possible.  No gestalt.


(Aside: Yes, this is the same sometime prolific poster, Tleilaxu_Ghola from the CO boards back before 4.0 and gleemax made everything go all to shit.  I subsequently gave up D&D as a result and moved on.  I might be coming back into the fold... but I make no promises).
« Last Edit: April 10, 2009, 08:41:53 PM by Tleilaxu_Ghola »

Havok4

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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2009, 08:33:26 PM »
Gestalt rules could make playing a dragon quite feasible. Also There are a few dragon derivatives which have fairly low HD and LA. The ambush drake seen at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060728a could be fairly useful and allow a few class levels as it has 7 racial HD and apparently no LA. Warlock or Dragonfire adept might work as pseudo-casters that work with limited class levels.

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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2009, 08:34:43 PM »
Welcome to BG, and nice avatar. :D

Well... aside from the recursive dragon cohort crap, you could always make the dragon a secondary character, like a mount, and then basically play the dragon as the dominant personality in the relationship. Probably the most powerful way to do this is to go with either a Supermount build (which you said stink at ECL 10), or the Zhentarim Skymage PrC. You can get into the Zhent Skymate at level 5, and have a powerful dragon mount immediately. The class also gives crazy abilities like not only can you share spells with the mount, it can also share spells with you. It's from Lords of Darkness, which I think is 3.0, and is a FR supplement. So it might not be usable in some games.
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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2009, 08:37:38 PM »
There's always a loredrake dragonwrought white dragonspawn dragonborn kobold. :D Size is a problem for you, though...

A dragonfire adept with an appropriate race could also emulate a dragon pretty well.

Or you could permanently polymorph into a dragon, though that could make your DM twitchy.
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Tleilaxu_Ghola

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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2009, 08:41:02 PM »
It's less that the supermount "stinks" at ECL10 and more that "you can't have a dragon mount at ECL 10".  At least that I could see.  I'd love to be corrected on that matter.

Also: gestalt isn't it.  Sorry, I should have been more clear in the OP.  I should also clarify that the point is to play a true dragon, preferably a canonical one.  Remember, looks and appearance aren't what I'm going for.  It's the RP factor of playing a dragon, a real dragon, that's the objective.  Yes, I'm stubborn.  No, I won't accept substitutes.

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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2009, 08:51:03 PM »
Steel dragons are pretty tasty at 4HD/2LA, with alternate form and 1st level casting. I have a bunch of others listed here: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3070.0
« Last Edit: April 10, 2009, 08:53:05 PM by Surreal »
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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2009, 08:57:56 PM »
If you really wanted to break the game you could play a very young dragon with LA and then find a way to rapidly age yourself...
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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2009, 10:06:11 PM »
You could play an incarnum dragon, if you don't care for the sorceror casting most dragons come with.  They;re not that great though.

Steel dragon dounds good to me.  Do you get LA buyoff?

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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2009, 11:13:40 PM »
I think dragons are supposed to be more of a support/scout role than a fighter. As mentioned in draconomicon, they come with flight, good senses, a fairly decent skill list (and enough skill points to max out several of them) and a battlefield control ability (if you are a metallic dragon with a debuff breath weapon, like sleep or paralysis).

At ECL10, dragons are likely still small, which hampers their combat capabilities somewhat.

The dragon savage progressions don't seem particularly well balanced either. For example, the red dragon wyrmling gets its 5 natural attacks at 1st lv, while the gold dragon gets just 1 bite (and must wait until much later before it accesses its claws and wings). Quite random, if you ask me.

When they reach medium size, I think they might actually be respectable tanks (or whatever you call it) with the right gear. Dr will likely still be an issue though.
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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2009, 02:09:08 AM »
Pseudodragons are tiny dragons which for some retarded reason have a +3 level adjustment. See if you can get that reduced. Steel dragon will probably work better for ya.

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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2009, 02:44:29 AM »
Pseudodragons probably have that +3 because WotC loves Telepathy. It's like their favourite ability.
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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2009, 07:48:16 AM »
Would it be an option to go with something like a Wyrmling (low racial HD and LA) and add class levels to complement it's abilitities?

If Dragon Magazine is allowed, the Tome Dragon is by far the best option for casting. You could turn it into a decent scout/sorcerer or maybe even a light gish if you pick up a Steel Dragon or Tome Dragon.

These ideas all depend on adding class levels to a low HD/low LA Dragon though, so if you're stuck with racial HD they become far less attractive.

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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2009, 08:38:15 AM »
Also: gestalt isn't it.  Sorry, I should have been more clear in the OP.  I should also clarify that the point is to play a true dragon, preferably a canonical one.  Remember, looks and appearance aren't what I'm going for.  It's the RP factor of playing a dragon, a real dragon, that's the objective.  Yes, I'm stubborn.  No, I won't accept substitutes.
By RAW, kobolds are "true dragons".   :smirk
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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2009, 08:52:05 AM »
Dragonwrought kobolds are.

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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2009, 09:07:13 AM »
Well, I was referring to the proposed loredrake dragonwrought white dragonspawn dragonborn kobold.
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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2009, 09:08:09 AM »
IIRC Mercury dragons are pretty decent.  I'd go Swordsage too, so you can use your racial HD as increased initiator levels a bit.  That would really help.

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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2009, 09:23:21 AM »
A Wyrmling Yellow Dragon from Dragon Compendium 1 is a not horrible choice.  You'll probably want to play with metabreath on its salt breath.  Why?  Multiple uses stack and have a pretty nice debuff.  And it's reflex based, and give a penalty to reflex saves.  Yeah.

A creature takes a -2 penalty on attacks, AC, Reflex saves, and Strength-, Dexterity-, and Constitution-based skill checks per failed save against the breath weapon.
A creature takes a -10 penalty on speed per failed save. A creature reduced to speed 0 cannot move Flying creatures crash to the ground.

Decent nonstandard speeds: fly 150 (good), burrow 20, swim 80.

3 hd and 2 LA, which is pretty hindering, I'll admit. 


Honestly, getting some sort of persistant/long lasting alter self onto a cheesey kobold would be ideal.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2009, 09:27:52 AM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2009, 12:57:11 PM »
Atfer I read the thread linked(and started^^) by Surreal, I bought Dragons of Eberron and made a few Builds with the Steel Dragon Wyrmling.
- Loredrake + 1 Level in any Class/PrC with full BaB & Martial Weapon Prof. would get you into Abjurant Champion, I would suggest Crusader for Healing(remember: Loredrake loses Clericspells)
- Wyrm of War might be worthwhile, but I never found out, how you can recover your Maneuvers(unless, you make your first Classlevel a Martial Adept Class and trade Spellslots for Maneuvers AFTER you got a method to recover them)

Biggest Problem: RAW you must take Racial Hitdice every 3-4 Classlevels and 3 more HD mean, your LA goes +1 up.
Assuming, LA buyoff is allowed, you can get rid of your +2 fast enough, to buy off your additional +1's as soon, as you get them.
By ECL 20, the Dragon could lokk like this: Steel Dragon 4/any class 3/Steel Dragon +1/any class 3(LA 2-1)/Steel Dragon +1/any class 3(LA 2-2)/ Dragon +1(LA goes up to 3-2 and you are Very young)/any class 3(LA 3-3)/ Dragon +1
That's an 8HD Dragon(racial Sorcerercasting 5th) with 12 Classlevels(probably +10-11 to his more effective Sorcererlevel). Sadly I couldn't figure out, how to get 9th Level Spells pre-epic(without resorting to Prestige Bard/ Sublime Chord or some such).

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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2009, 01:08:45 PM »
I second the suggestion of doing a Dragonspawn Kobold, Loredrake.  Lower HD issues, mainly.  Also, simply playing a Dragonborn is an option.  Alter Self abuse to get yourself into a form you can call truly dragon.

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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2009, 01:10:20 PM »
Hey, what's up Tleilaxu_Ghola welcome do BG's  :clap .

Quote
MM3 positive HD bullshit
Were you refering to this?
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060728a

Ambush Drake Template Class

Quick and canny hunters, ambush drakes prefer pack tactics in dealing with prey larger and/or smarter than themselves, though particularly skilled hunters utilize their terrain, as well as the cover of darkness, to overcome threats singly or in pairs. The table below shows the advancement of these creatures as they grow to maturity. You are far more likely to encounter these creatures in their adult or advanced forms, than as wyrmlings (1st and 2nd level), juvenile (3rd and 4th level), or even young adults (5th and 6th level). Nevertheless, unwary adventures that do stumble upon younger ambush drakes generally find that the older members of their packs are not far off.

Level Hit Dice Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save CR Natural Armor  Special
1st 1d12 +1 +2 +2 +2 +1 +0 +4 Con, -4 Int, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to magic sleep effects and paralysis, low-light vision, scent
2nd 2d12 +2 +3 +3 +3 +1 +1 Poison, telepathic link 15 ft.
3rd 3d12 +3 +3 +3 +3 +2 +2 +1 Str, fly 15 ft. (poor)
4th 4d12 +4 +4 +4 +4 +2 +3 Spell resistance
5th 5d12 +5 +4 +4 +4 +3 +4 +2 Str, fly 30 ft. (poor)
6th 6d12 +6 +5 +5 +5 +4 +5 Telepathic link 30 ft.
7th 7d12 +7 +5 +5 +5 +5 +6 Breath weapon

Class Skills (6 + Int modifier per level): Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot

Class Features

All the following are class features of the ambush drake template class. An ambush drake must take all levels of this class before it can take levels in any other class. Scout is the favored class of the ambush drake, outside of its typical advancement. Ambush drakes speak Draconic.

Ability Score Adjustments: At 1st level the ambush drake receives a +4 racial bonus to its Constitution and a -4 racial penalty to their Intelligence. As dragons, these creatures begin life using the elite array, typically arranged as such (Str 13, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 11, Wis 10, Cha 9), prior to racial adjustments. At 3rd level, ambush drakes receive a +1 racial bonus to its Strength, and it receives a +2 racial bonus to its Strength at 5th level. As their Strength increases, so does their ability to fly.

Skills: Ambush drakes have a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks.

Natural Armor: At 1st level, ambush drakes have a natural armor bonus of +0. Wyrmling ambush drakes are particularly vulnerable to predators, and the adults of the pack closely guard them. This bonus increases by +1 at each level up to a maximum of +6 at 7th level.

Bite Attack: An ambush drake's primary attack is its bite. Possessing a powerful set of jaws, the creature can deal 1d8 points of damage on a successful hit.

Claw Attacks: Ambush drakes also possess a pair of powerful foreclaws, which they use to good effect by digging into the flesh of their prey for 1d6 points of damage on a successful hit.

Speed: Ambush drakes can cover distance over ground quickly, moving at a speed of 40 feet. As they grow older and stronger, they develop their wings and the ability to fly, though they tend to be clumsy in the air at best. Because of this, they usually use their flight to escape when necessary, or when it might give them an initial or momentary combat advantage. Otherwise they prefer to move along the ground.

Poison (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, ambush drakes develop a pair of glands that can deliver a massive dose of poison through various teeth in their mouth. A successful bite attack delivers this venom, forcing the ambush drake's prey to make a successful Fortitude saving throw DC 17 or suffer 1d6 points of Dexterity damage. The secondary damage of the poison has the same effect. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Telepathic Link (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, ambush drakes develop a telepathic link, allowing them to share a communal consciousness. This enables them to communicate telepathically with other ambush drakes. The range of this link is limited to 15 feet until the creature reaches 6th level, when it expands to 30 feet. A group of adult ambush drakes within 30 feet of each other are in constant contact. If one is aware of a particular danger, they all are. If one in the group is not flat-footed, none of them are. No ambush drake in the group is considered flanked unless all are.

Breath Weapon (Su): Upon reaching adulthood at 7th level, an ambush drake develops a nasty breath weapon that it can use to slow down potential prey. Capable of using their breath weapon once every 1d4 rounds, an ambush drake releases a 30-foot cone of gas that has the effect of a slow spell (duration 7 rounds). A successful Will save DC 17 negates this effect. The save DC is Constitution-based

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