Author Topic: Feature discussion: on-board die-roller  (Read 3476 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

pfooti

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 531
  • Pants are for Suckers
    • /castrandom - even we don't know what it's about
    • Email
Feature discussion: on-board die-roller
« on: May 27, 2008, 01:06:32 PM »
So, BG doesn't support [dice] tags. Interestingly, there doesn't seem to be anything on the SMF site that would enable that sort of thing. Weird, I know. I'm not satisfied with the current situation (offsite die-roller) mainly because I'm a trifle paranoid. It's not that I don't trust my players, but I don't see any reason to give my players an easy opportunity to cheat. The offsite roller is pretty good, but I'm relatively sure it allows for easy re-rolls if you don't like the first roll (generate a new roll and link that one instead).

Anyway, either way, I think typing [dice]1d20+4[/dice] is much easier than going elsewhere and dealing with their dieroller. So this thread right now is for feature requests and discussion. Post what you would like to see in such a roller, especially roll-strings and how they should be parsed. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of the DnDOG roller, for example, the way it reports rolls isn't all that awesome.

I'm assuming this will be a relatively straightforward PHP mod, but I'm not positive. I've written mods for the PHPbb system, but not SMF, so it if turns out their bbcode and presentation parser is all spaghetti, I won't touch it. But I've got to believe any sizeable project such as SMF has to be relatively well-designed and organized. It should just be a matter of extending the parser with some new tag types and their presentation rules.

If anyone has any links (I haven't yet exercised true Google-Fu yet, I've just been poking at the SMF homepage), or advice, I'm all ears. Better yet, if anyone has a mod that already works, or wants to do it themselves, this isn't my baby, just something I think ought to be done.

Here's what I have so far in terms of features, critical and optional:
  • (critical) Straightforward parsing: [dice]1d20+7 1d8+5 3d6[/dice] should be an attack, a damage roll, and a sneak attack roll or something like that.
  • (critical) Detailed reporting: The above should report something like (5)+7 = 12, (3)+5 = 8, (4, 6, 2) = 12, so you can see what the rolls were and the like. That way, the 3d6 could instead represent 2d6 of SA as well as 1d6 of flaming weapon damage, and the DM knows to remove the last die in the event of fire-immunity.
  • (critical) Tamper-resistant: you shouldn't be able to edit your posts in order to reroll things you don't like. I've got some ideas about how to accomplish this, but it strikes me that this is probably the hardest part. I don't think we need a completely "hacker-proof" system, but if players know that their critical failure at a really bad time could be wiped away with two button-presses, it might be that temptation will get the best of them.
  • (optional) Die-drop rolling: Stats are usually rolled as 4d6 drop the lowest, so something like 4d6k3 for (4d6 keep 3) would be handy.
  • (optional) Reroll-ones: Many hitpoint rolls are rolled where you reroll 1s. So: 1d8r1. Or XdNrM
  • (optional) Smart-rolling, d20-style at least, where we could specify attack bonuses and have the system automatically make attack, crit confirmation, and damage rolls. That's probably more trouble than it's worth, but a possibility.


AfterCrescent

  • Moderator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 4220
  • Here After
Re: Feature discussion: on-board die-roller
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2008, 01:19:32 PM »
I love the idea, and while not a programmer, I wish you the best of luck.

On the topic of off-site rollers, though, the issue with cheating isn't actually there. Using invisiblecastle all rolls used under a character name "aftercrescent" for instance, are saved. If I were to roll under the name and get a natural one and reroll it, yes, I could link the better roll, but the DM can easily see all the rolls made and the time they were made.
The cake is a lie.
Need to play table top? Get your game on at:
Brilliant Gameologists' PbP Forum. Do it, you know you want to.
The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
The 13th Guard - An alternate history campaign idea.
Clerics just wake up one morning and decide they need to kick ass, and it needs to be kicked NOW. ~veekie

pfooti

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 531
  • Pants are for Suckers
    • /castrandom - even we don't know what it's about
    • Email
Re: Feature discussion: on-board die-roller
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2008, 01:30:32 PM »
On the topic of off-site rollers, though, the issue with cheating isn't actually there. Using invisiblecastle all rolls used under a character name "aftercrescent" for instance, are saved. If I were to roll under the name and get a natural one and reroll it, yes, I could link the better roll, but the DM can easily see all the rolls made and the time they were made.

Ah, that's a good point I hadn't realized, since I'm only just starting to play with Invisible Castle. It would only take a roll or two before the DM starts to say "hey, you keep saying that your low rolls are for a character in a different game!" The convenience thing is still there, and I also just like to have little programming projects around to keep my wits sharp. But if IC is good enough for now, I won't rush into things.

AfterCrescent

  • Moderator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 4220
  • Here After
Re: Feature discussion: on-board die-roller
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2008, 01:41:15 PM »
A general idea for using InvisibleCastle until you get this project underway is to have the player roll under the name of their characer. Say my character's name is Phillipe Stail, that is what I would roll under. I would also roll only when necessary, not just for random fun. I can use another name for that. Another thing, if you are worried about cheating, is you can have your players put why they are rolling in the notes section. "Attack on Troll A" or "Damage with Longsword" etc. This ensures that you know the reason behind the roll and that they'll be further documented.
The cake is a lie.
Need to play table top? Get your game on at:
Brilliant Gameologists' PbP Forum. Do it, you know you want to.
The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
The 13th Guard - An alternate history campaign idea.
Clerics just wake up one morning and decide they need to kick ass, and it needs to be kicked NOW. ~veekie

Ieniemienie

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 690
    • Email
Re: Feature discussion: on-board die-roller
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2008, 02:08:48 PM »
[faith in humanity]Or you could just trust the goodness in people... I understand your concerns, but why would you cheat? It is much more fun to work with the numbers you've got than cheating all 17's....[/faith in humanity]

So invisible castle it is? then i'll go check out what it is :)
'DnD is not a game; it is a membership in a tribe that I joined long ago.'

Stupidity should be painful!

pfooti

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 531
  • Pants are for Suckers
    • /castrandom - even we don't know what it's about
    • Email
Re: Feature discussion: on-board die-roller
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2008, 02:14:33 PM »
I have faith in humanity, for the most part. But it's true that the temptation is there. Consider rolling stats. What if you rolled up a character and ended up with three 6s or something, and you knew the DM wouldn't let you reroll (for whatever reason?) isn't it easier to just replace those 6s with a bit better, rather than argue about how it's really unfair to play such a character in a normally-balanced game? Hmmm?  :devil

Maybe, maybe not. In general, my trust model is: trust your players/peers/companions/whoever, but don't tempt them too much. That's why I was thinking that an unalterable die-roller would be a good thing. I'm pretty sure there would still be ways to fudge it, since I'm not a believer in the existence of perfection, but if it's not looking you in the face, then you're not going to go looking for it either.

I think there's a difference between trusting your players, though, and giving them a big button that says: "press me to roll really well!"

Anyway, I've poked Invisible Castle a little (when I should have been reading GC apps), and it looks pretty feature-rich. Enough that I'm not going to stay up all night and write the die-roller tonight.

Tshern

  • Clown Prince of Crime
  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5726
  • Aistii valoa auttavasti
    • Email
Re: Feature discussion: on-board die-roller
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2008, 07:40:12 PM »
Only bad builds actually have to roll anything.

Anyway, I think Invisiblecastle's features ought to cover everything. Just tell players what names they are going to use for rolls.

Handy Links

EjoThims

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1945
  • The Ferret
    • Email
Re: Feature discussion: on-board die-roller
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2008, 10:08:53 PM »
Inviscastle works fine, but it would be very convenient to have dice built in over here.

amalcon

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 30
Re: Feature discussion: on-board die-roller
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2008, 10:58:45 PM »
Did some googling, and there seems to be something at http://www.sylvos.com/SMF/index.php?topic=378.msg3451#msg3451.  Not quite how I'd do the interface, but it seems to have all the bells and whistles.  It seems to meet the straightforward and detailed requirements.  I'm not sure about the tamper-resistance, or how straightforward it would be to add, but we could in principle emulate that requirement by just saying "don't edit posts that have rolls in them."

pfooti

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 531
  • Pants are for Suckers
    • /castrandom - even we don't know what it's about
    • Email
Re: Feature discussion: on-board die-roller
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2008, 11:13:41 PM »
Nice. Your google-fu is strong. If I'm lucky, no code will need writing, heh.

JanusJones

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 278
Re: Feature discussion: on-board die-roller
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2008, 09:57:28 AM »
I have faith in humanity, for the most part. But it's true that the temptation is there. Consider rolling stats. What if you rolled up a character and ended up with three 6s or something, and you knew the DM wouldn't let you reroll (for whatever reason?) isn't it easier to just replace those 6s with a bit better, rather than argue about how it's really unfair to play such a character in a normally-balanced game? Hmmm?  :devil

Maybe, maybe not. In general, my trust model is: trust your players/peers/companions/whoever, but don't tempt them too much. That's why I was thinking that an unalterable die-roller would be a good thing. I'm pretty sure there would still be ways to fudge it, since I'm not a believer in the existence of perfection, but if it's not looking you in the face, then you're not going to go looking for it either.

I think there's a difference between trusting your players, though, and giving them a big button that says: "press me to roll really well!"

Anyway, I've poked Invisible Castle a little (when I should have been reading GC apps), and it looks pretty feature-rich. Enough that I'm not going to stay up all night and write the die-roller tonight.

Nah.  If a DM I'm interested in playing with won't let me re-roll THREE SIXES, I'm no longer interested in playing with him.   :P

You have to choose the people you play with carefully so that your ideas of fun align well.  My idea of fun is playing a heroic, flavorful character in a game that challenges my wits and my character's abilities.  Some people's idea of fun is rolling 3d6 six times, taking the stats, making a peasant with a wooden spoon, and spending a lot of time cursing about sudden and inexplicable stuff like:

"Nope, even though you hit the bad guy and do a million damage, he doesn't die, laughs at you, and otherwise disobeys the laws of the universe.  Why?  . . . 'Cause I said so, that's why.  What do you mean, your 'suspension of disbelief just failed its Fort save'?"   ::)

Which is why I'm so happy the CO board peeps came on over here!  Now I don't have to interview all my DMs to prevent a mis-match of styles!    :love

AlienFromBeyond

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 256
Re: Feature discussion: on-board die-roller
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2008, 08:51:53 PM »
Inviscastle works fine, but it would be very convenient to have dice built in over here.
This, pretty much. Not sure how you would prevent tampering with an on-board dice roller, unless you want to keep track of all rolls like IC does.

pfooti

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 531
  • Pants are for Suckers
    • /castrandom - even we don't know what it's about
    • Email
Re: Feature discussion: on-board die-roller
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2008, 12:31:45 AM »
My thought on the matter was mainly to take some part of the message that's not transient (message id, absolute time of original post, it depends on what the actual database for SMF looks like) and use that as the RNG seed. So no matter how many times you edited your post, the d20 would come up the same way. It would still be random, since it's essentially a huge one-way hash function, you couldn't predict what value you'd get based on your post, but it would also not fluctuate when posts got edited. You could delete the roll and place it in a later post, but that's not likely to be a good strategy.

AlienFromBeyond

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 256
Re: Feature discussion: on-board die-roller
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2008, 03:14:45 AM »
My thought on the matter was mainly to take some part of the message that's not transient (message id, absolute time of original post, it depends on what the actual database for SMF looks like) and use that as the RNG seed. So no matter how many times you edited your post, the d20 would come up the same way. It would still be random, since it's essentially a huge one-way hash function, you couldn't predict what value you'd get based on your post, but it would also not fluctuate when posts got edited. You could delete the roll and place it in a later post, but that's not likely to be a good strategy.
Sounds like it would work, so long as you can find something that won't change, particularly through board upgrades and the like. How odd would it be to go to a new version of the forum only to find all your dice rolls different?