Mid-level game without spellcasters?

[Shadowhunter]

Ok, so not as bad as the topic name might suggest.
But here's the deal.
My friends asked me if I could DM a easygoing (not to be confused with an easy) D&D Evil campaign. Sure no problem.
They just want to roam around the countryside, killing, looting, burning and doing bad stuff. Alrighy-o.
Chaotic Evil all the way around. If that's what you want, sure.
Light-hearted and fun, just to take a break from the very rp-intense WoD games we usually play.

However.

One of the players have expressed his desire to not having any spellcasters in the party because "it bogs down the game for eight hours which could be quite a lot". He's going to be the Warlock.

This causes me trouble. Magic is such an integrated part of D&D that it requires heavy modification to meet this criteria.


I'm the one in charge of creating the characters, so that they don't make something too squishy and die the first meeting.
So far, it looks something like this:
Ogre Barbarian 3 - he just wants something simple and likes to kill stuff dead.
Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 7 - he insisted on playing a monk after seeing "The Gamers - Dorkness Rising" and I insisted on making his monk so that he wouldn't suck.
Pixie Warlock 5 - stuck on this Pixie idea.
Unknown for now, she's still searching for a concept.

I'm going to try to graduate approach to this. The psionic part instead of plain out magic, since the Monk player still can be somewhat effective on the front line even after his pp's have run out for the day.

The guy I'm talking about is usually reasonable. But he gets these fix ideas to which very little can be done. Most of what he doesn't like about D&D is due to our old DM and our not-so-educated group. Like auto-failing on Skill Checks and critical botches on natural 1.
Never having seen any spellcaster above level 4, most of my friends have a very skewed weiw of how useful a mage really is. "3.5? Then I can't play a wizard" is an actual quote from one of them.
Yes, I've got a loooong way to go with these dudes. So that might explain his desire to not having a spellcaster around.

I'm at odds what exactly I need to use to challenge them.
I can't use the normal CR 9 stuff, since without spellcasting many monsters will be unreachable.
Not to mention lack of healing.
I'm seriously considering a Cleric NPC with DMM around, buffing the PCs but careful not to steal any spotlight. Hopefully that will make him more happy about it. Since the NPC will focus on long-term buffs and then be a general beatstick, there won't be a need for extended rests so I think he won't mind.

They have, so far, no trap finder and the warlock player don't like too many traps.
To add to this, I'm going to try to make an improvised plotline, so planned dungeons won't be that many.


I'm trying to acomplish esentially three things here and I think I might be biting at more that I can chew:
1. Making a campaign they'll find fun.
2. Making a campaign challenging enough without being impossible without dedicated casters.
3. Eradicating his unreasonable hatred for spellcasters, since it stems from ignorance.

I'm trying to strike a balance between delivering what my players want (mostly the warlock, the others seems not too bothered) and making an adventure that won't derail since they have very little magic support.


So, what I've gathered so far is that I more or less need to focus on melee monsters like Giants to make it interesting for them.
Anyone got any ideas?

[Solo]

Vorpal bunny rabbit.

[AfterCrescent]

Well one thing to note is that divine casters don't need the whole 8 hours of rest thing.   They just get their spells back when they take an hour at a certain time/day...

But as for creatures. Try taking lower CR monsters and upping them via some templates or HD increases.  Avoid Outsiders if you don't want to own them via spells.  Focus on many low CR creatures. More actions on your side allows for some challenge, while having low CR makes them enjoy their power, even without spells.

[Midnight_v]

Vorpal bunny rabbit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ez5QPW-ku4

Yeah... what he said.

[veekie]

Dire animals could work, but I think one of the easier tricks here is to have a bard tag along for the game, chronicling their exploits and stuff, hitting some buff spells between songs. A cleric's more naturally a sort of authority figure, one which might cause some resentment, if played to character.

Ease supernatural creatures into the scenario, as 'boss' type encounters or recurring foes. Heck, a recurring wizard(lower level of course, maybe a summoner type) pestering the party could be interesting, spurring other enemies on, etc.

[woodenbandman]

Do they want no vancian spellcasters, or straight up no magic? Big difference. A no magic game is really hard. If they don't mind stuff like blaster sorcerors, psions, or other things that don't need an assload of prep time, that's fine. But a no-magic game will be hard as hell.

Try and introduce stuff like Totemists, Tome of Battle, some Binders, Psionics... Also, maybe duskblades will work.

I have no idea how you can actually have a game with no buffing and debuffing.

[Shadowhunter]

Do they want no vancian spellcasters, or straight up no magic? Big difference. A no magic game is really hard. If they don't mind stuff like blaster sorcerors, psions, or other things that don't need an assload of prep time, that's fine. But a no-magic game will be hard as hell.

Try and introduce stuff like Totemists, Tome of Battle, some Binders, Psionics... Also, maybe duskblades will work.

I have no idea how you can actually have a game with no buffing and debuffing.

Yeah, that was my reaction aswell.
His problem (beside hating things that need too much prep time) is that he doesn't like any party member that have a limited amount of resources on a daily basis.
So, he'd like to be able to be in 5-6 fights a day without having any party member basically useless.
That's why I'm thinking DMM persistent. Group buffing 24/7 will make people happy and alot easier to handle for him.
He also is a outspoken opponent of the whole vancian spellcasting system, he just doesn't like it.
Of course, he might learn that if I'm going to throw 5-6 encounters per day at them, consumables and HP may run dangerously low, very quickly . So we'll just see how it ends up.

Vorpal bunny rabbit.

I'll consider it.Though I don't know what you're refering to[size]

Well one thing to note is that divine casters don't need the whole 8 hours of rest thing.   They just get their spells back when they take an hour at a certain time/day...

But as for creatures. Try taking lower CR monsters and upping them via some templates or HD increases.  Avoid Outsiders if you don't want to own them via spells.  Focus on many low CR creatures. More actions on your side allows for some challenge, while having low CR makes them enjoy their power, even without spells.

Thanks AC, that helps

Dire animals could work, but I think one of the easier tricks here is to have a bard tag along for the game, chronicling their exploits and stuff, hitting some buff spells between songs. A cleric's more naturally a sort of authority figure, one which might cause some resentment, if played to character.

Ease supernatural creatures into the scenario, as 'boss' type encounters or recurring foes. Heck, a recurring wizard(lower level of course, maybe a summoner type) pestering the party could be interesting, spurring other enemies on, etc.

Reacurring Malconvoker... hrrm, that might just be something.

[woodenbandman]

Hmm... It may be time for some homebrewing if you don't want to have many /day things. Try out the Mysterious Swordsage that I made. I pimp it out as a fix to the Shadow Magic system, which it actually kind of isn't; It's more of a variant on the Arcane Swordsage.

[AfterCrescent]

Going along wooden's suggestion, if you don't like /day and are open to homebrews, there's a lot of classes on these boards that work with /encounter abilities. Plenty of class remakes, too (Hexblade's a big one).

[Solo]

"it bogs down the game for eight hours which could be quite a lot"

Have you pointed out that melee characters need to rest to regain HP too? Especially since no one will be casting healing spells, and there are not an infinite amount of wands and potions in the countryside.

I'm at odds what exactly I need to use to challenge them.

Great Balls of Fire

[spoiler]Key features of this build:

Fires off an Orb of Fire (15d6 damage, no save or SR) that is Empowered, Maximized, Energy Substitution: Cold, Piercing Cold, Energy Admixture, Invisible, Sanctum, Twin Spelled. Ends up with a +2 level adjustment.

Deals 270 Cold Damage, which ignores cold resistance, and deals double damage to fire resistant creatures. [Cold] subtype creatures seem to not be affected by this spell, however.

You can store up to two of these in your eyes by using Ocular Spell (LA cost reduced to +0) and release both as rays in a full round action for 4 rays dealing 540 damage.

Arcane Spellsurge can be cast as a swift action if the caster of of the dragonblood subtype, which the Siverbrow Human race is. It allows Standard actions pells to be cast as immediate action, Full round as a standard, and one round as full round.

So first turn, Arcane Spellsurge and release four orbs of death. Second round, use a standard action to cast what used to be a full round metamagicked Orb of Death, and use the Metamagic specialist alternate class feature, which allows metamagic spells to be cast without time adjustment to cast another metamagic Orb of Death as an immediate action. 540 damage again.

Keep at it until you are out of spell slots or the enemy is dead.

You could also combine the above with Greater Arcane Fusion, though it eats up resources faster than a Republican at a wildlife preserve.

When in danger, use Wings of Cover as an immediate action to grant self and adjacent allies total cover against one attack for one round.

If elemental resistant creatures are present, use Wings of Flurry to deal an AoE burst of Force damage, 1d6/level (no cap on damage, dazed if failed save, dragonbloods cast at +1 caster level).

Melf's Unicorn arrow does ok damage, but the main feature is that it does 1d8+8 untyped damage per arrow, so nothing can resist it, plus it will give a free bull rush on the target. It can produce up to five arrows at CL 17, and the Bullrush DC goes up for each arrow that hits the target.  Rather fun spell.

Ruin Delver's Fortune can be used to increase saves, should they somehow threaten you with... whatever. Given that you'll always be going first though, with a Greater Shadow Evocation Contingency, Celerity, Foresight, and Timestop, they should be dead in the first round. And after that, there's always things like Ironguard, Displacement, and Greater Blink to protect you from weapons and spells.

Finally, if the spell selection is wrong, or skillpoints were misallocated, Limited Wish can be used to duplicate the psionic power Psychic Reformation, which allows you top pay 50* (n+1) XP to redo your skill, feat, and spell selections made at previous levels, where n = how many levels back you want to go.
[/spoiler]

Of course, it would be a little one sided.

1. Making a campaign they'll find fun.
2. Making a campaign challenging enough without being impossible without dedicated casters.
3. Eradicating his unreasonable hatred for spellcasters, since it stems from ignorance.

This will definitely show him how powerful casters can be, though he might go from "casters are useless" to "casters are horribly broken."

Now, on to more serious matters, it is hard to have a DMPC, as you either hand in the shadows or steal the limelight from everyone from a player's perspective, mind you. Not that staying out of their way is a bad idea, but that will kinda fuel the perception that casters are weak.

I can give you something to counter their arguments, but I would like to know more about them first. Can you give us a list of their most common objections to spellcasters?

[Eldariel]

Eh, just introduce them to decently played casters. They don't run out of resources before other characters. And 2xHeward's Fortifying Bedroll & Divine Casting = nobody needs to rest for extended periods of time.

[Shadowhunter]

Hmm... It may be time for some homebrewing if you don't want to have many /day things. Try out the Mysterious Swordsage that I made. I pimp it out as a fix to the Shadow Magic system, which it actually kind of isn't; It's more of a variant on the Arcane Swordsage.

Going along wooden's suggestion, if you don't like /day and are open to homebrews, there's a lot of classes on these boards that work with /encounter abilities. Plenty of class remakes, too (Hexblade's a big one).

I'll look around

"it bogs down the game for eight hours which could be quite a lot"

Have you pointed out that melee characters need to rest to regain HP too? Especially since no one will be casting healing spells, and there are not an infinite amount of wands and potions in the countryside.

Not explicitly. I assume he remebers that since he has played this game before. If not, he'll remember the hard way.
Actually... let's see how far they can go with only UMD-based casting. He plays WARMACHINE and knows how to learn the hard way without too much complaint. The trick is not to push him over the edge where it'll ruin the gaming experience.

I'm at odds what exactly I need to use to challenge them.

Great Balls of Fire

[spoiler]Key features of this build:

Fires off an Orb of Fire (15d6 damage, no save or SR) that is Empowered, Maximized, Energy Substitution: Cold, Piercing Cold, Energy Admixture, Invisible, Sanctum, Twin Spelled. Ends up with a +2 level adjustment.

Deals 270 Cold Damage, which ignores cold resistance, and deals double damage to fire resistant creatures. [Cold] subtype creatures seem to not be affected by this spell, however.

You can store up to two of these in your eyes by using Ocular Spell (LA cost reduced to +0) and release both as rays in a full round action for 4 rays dealing 540 damage.

Arcane Spellsurge can be cast as a swift action if the caster of of the dragonblood subtype, which the Siverbrow Human race is. It allows Standard actions pells to be cast as immediate action, Full round as a standard, and one round as full round.

So first turn, Arcane Spellsurge and release four orbs of death. Second round, use a standard action to cast what used to be a full round metamagicked Orb of Death, and use the Metamagic specialist alternate class feature, which allows metamagic spells to be cast without time adjustment to cast another metamagic Orb of Death as an immediate action. 540 damage again.

Keep at it until you are out of spell slots or the enemy is dead.

You could also combine the above with Greater Arcane Fusion, though it eats up resources faster than a Republican at a wildlife preserve.

When in danger, use Wings of Cover as an immediate action to grant self and adjacent allies total cover against one attack for one round.

If elemental resistant creatures are present, use Wings of Flurry to deal an AoE burst of Force damage, 1d6/level (no cap on damage, dazed if failed save, dragonbloods cast at +1 caster level).

Melf's Unicorn arrow does ok damage, but the main feature is that it does 1d8+8 untyped damage per arrow, so nothing can resist it, plus it will give a free bull rush on the target. It can produce up to five arrows at CL 17, and the Bullrush DC goes up for each arrow that hits the target.  Rather fun spell.

Ruin Delver's Fortune can be used to increase saves, should they somehow threaten you with... whatever. Given that you'll always be going first though, with a Greater Shadow Evocation Contingency, Celerity, Foresight, and Timestop, they should be dead in the first round. And after that, there's always things like Ironguard, Displacement, and Greater Blink to protect you from weapons and spells.

Finally, if the spell selection is wrong, or skillpoints were misallocated, Limited Wish can be used to duplicate the psionic power Psychic Reformation, which allows you top pay 50* (n+1) XP to redo your skill, feat, and spell selections made at previous levels, where n = how many levels back you want to go.
[/spoiler]

Of course, it would be a little one sided.

...yes, it would. Neither would it be particulary funny, since the sorc have a CR of 20 against a party at lvl 9/10.

1. Making a campaign they'll find fun.
2. Making a campaign challenging enough without being impossible without dedicated casters.
3. Eradicating his unreasonable hatred for spellcasters, since it stems from ignorance.

This will definitely show him how powerful casters can be, though he might go from "casters are useless" to "casters are horribly broken."

Now, on to more serious matters, it is hard to have a DMPC, as you either hand in the shadows or steal the limelight from everyone from a player's perspective, mind you. Not that staying out of their way is a bad idea, but that will kinda fuel the perception that casters are weak.

I can give you something to counter their arguments, but I would like to know more about them first. Can you give us a list of their most common objections to spellcasters?

"It's poorly designed, but not for the reason you claim"
Me: It's designed to need all classes.
He: We've never played with all the classes before in the same team. (Implying "And it worked")
Me thinking "No, but that was at level 1, not level 10. But you're going to argue against me because you think you're right and you're so stubborn you'll continue to argue with me regardless of what I say."
Me: ...
actually I can't remember anything more from the conversation.

On the possitive side, he's also been the one to ask.
"So, whe are we going to die? "
The possitive about that is the conversation that followed where I established that he has the same oppinion about it as me:
Obey the dice. If it's a critical hit, then it is a critical hit.
No pulling punches for plotline advancment here, it's just not that kind of a game.
Characters die in D&D. It happens.

Eh, just introduce them to decently played casters. They don't run out of resources before other characters. And 2xHeward's Fortifying Bedroll & Divine Casting = nobody needs to rest for extended periods of time.

My thoughs exactly. Problem:
I can't do that as a DM, only as a player.
If I tag along a NPC, it'll steal the limelight and go directly against his wishes to not having any spellcasters.
If I try to make someone play it, then it won't work because either they won't be able to play them to maximum* capacity.
Or they won't be able to play the characters as they want since I'd go around saying what they should do all the time.

*maximum in this case meaning the potential I see in them. I'm fully aware there are plenty of people than can play wizards better than me.

The party builds, as they are right now:
[spoiler]Tiefling Chaos Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 7
Strenght:10
Dexterity:16
Constitution:14
Intelligence:10
Wisdom:20
Charisma:8

1: Speed of Thought, Stunning Fist, Improved Unarmed Strike
2: Monastic Training (Psychic Warrior)
3: Tashalatora, Intuitive Attack
4: Up the Walls
6: Improved Natural Attack
7: Versatile Unarmed Strike
9: Sun School [Tactical]

PP's:36

Powers Known:
1 Expansion
1 Precognition, Defensive
1 Force Screen

2 Detect Hostile Intent
2 Hustle
2 Psionic Lion's Charge

3 Vampiric Blade
--------------------------------------------
Pixie Warlock 6

Strenght:6
Dexterity:22
Constitution:14
Intelligence:14
Wisdom:14
Charisma:26

1: Ability Focus (Eldritch Blast), Dodge
3: Flyby Attack
6: Mortalbane
--------------------------------------------
Ogre Ranger 2/Fighter 2

Strenght:28
Dexterity:10
Constitution:20
Intelligence:8
Wisdom:10
Charisma:6

1: Power Attack
3: Improved Sunder
6: Weapon Focus (Handaxe), Two-Weapon Fighting
7: Weapon Focus (light hammer)
8: Anvil of Thunder
--------------------------------------------
Unknown
--------------------------------------------


Few notes:
The Monk player wanted to make a Tiefling, so I thought why not. Tashalatora was sacrificed on the "mechanics over background" altar, since otherwise he'd suck.
Intuitive Attack isn't an Exalted Feat when I GM.
The ogre player expressed a desire to dual-weild an hammer and an axe. Funny thing he stumbled upon one of the few Weapon Styles worthwhile.
LA buyoff is in place.[/spoiler]

[Eldariel]

Eh, just introduce them to decently played casters. They don't run out of resources before other characters. And 2xHeward's Fortifying Bedroll & Divine Casting = nobody needs to rest for extended periods of time.

My thoughs exactly. Problem:
I can't do that as a DM, only as a player.
If I tag along a NPC, it'll steal the limelight and go directly against his wishes to not having any spellcasters.
If I try to make someone play it, then it won't work because either they won't be able to play them to maximum* capacity.
Or they won't be able to play the characters as they want since I'd go around saying what they should do all the time.

*maximum in this case meaning the potential I see in them. I'm fully aware there are plenty of people than can play wizards better than me.

My first suggestion would be to just talk to them - point out how a caster can easily do all he needs to do in a level appropriate encounter with a single spell (except for Dragon-fights, but I trust you aren't running straight those) and even encourage some to try casters. Maybe direct 'em towards some forums about character optimization - many myths can be dispelled with something as simple as e.g. Treantmonk's/Logic Ninja's spell assessments. Furthermore, you can point out how level 1 spells (e.g. Grease, Entangle, Divine Favor, Enlarge Person, Benign Transposition, Summons [Aid Another], etc.) can be worthwhile even when they're supposed to be "obsolete" and maybe they'll make the necessary dot-to-dot connections without anything more than a rough shove over the edge.

The other, probably more interesting option is (as suggested by veekie among others) to have a hostile, level-appropriate Wizard hit 'em 6-7 times in one day, dealing some heavy damage each turn and leaving before they can finish him off. Afterwards point out that it was a character of equivalent level and built perfectly within the rules. Specifically reserve the character sheet for that and so on. If you so desire, make him a recurring antagonist, perhaps the Dragon of your BBEG and have him pester the party in a very lethal manner constantly until they manage to kill him somehow. Just make it a point to have him appear a lot of times daily for preferably a rather long time - just play him conservatively in the sense that he first and foremost keeps himself safe (use a few slots and e.g. Abrupt Jaunt for defense). The Malconvoker-idea isn't all that bad, to be honest.

[Solo]

...yes, it would. Neither would it be particulary funny, since the sorc have a CR of 20 against a party at lvl 9/10.

Well, I'm sure you could tone it down a few levels...

[Endarire]

For melee that relies on renewable resources, try a Hood.

[Shadowhunter]

Ok, update.
After three sessions and:
Killcount and Consumables.
[spoiler]
53 charges of Lesser Vigor Wands
One Remove Curse Scroll
One Cure Serious Wound potion
1 Displacer beast
7 Howlers
1 Animated Object, Gargantuan
42 halflings (killed in cinematic mode, becuase come on... lvl 1 commoners vs. lvl 10 PC's) - and 1 severly tortured.
3 Halfling with class levels
2 humans with class levels
2 T-rex
2 Dire Tigers
1 Dire Beaver (who Garg stepped on and killed) - he wanted a pet, but apparently not this one.[/spoiler]

Garg, the party's Ogre Leap Attacker, got fried.

Group alignment and mentality.
[spoiler]Now, my group plays Chaotic Evil quite well. And they have an illogical hate for Halflings and Gnomes for some reason.
I think they're trying to commit genocide one short guy at a time to be honest.

And they're quite the stubborn group.[/spoiler]

"Plot"..."line". Yeah, doubtful if is... ah well
[spoiler]
My campaign - which basically is them running around like power-hungry teenagers and killing/eating (I'm amazed on how much they ate from each halfling) anything they like - there's been a major teleportation device malfunction. This world is a lot like Final Fantasy XII, with safe cities conected through big teleporters. So, one of them is malfunctioning and at random teleporting things from one place to another. My gaming group have visisted an Cloud Giant city (abandoned), an Jurassic Island, a wood somewhere (whilst Garg at that moment slept through a Blizzard... he was currently at 0 in Cha and Int, but he rolled like a god on his fort save) and an australian outback mixed with scottish hills.[/spoiler]


So, todays session started with them waking up from slaughtering the halfling caravan earlier during the night.
After some minor morning stuff, they proceded with Garg pulling one of the wagons and the other ones riding in it.
After quite a while they reach a forest, a thick one.
They continue in.
Eventually, they come across a pylon with the text "Only members of the Green Brotherhood are allowed past this stone" or something along those lines in pretty much every language.
Garg thinks it's a good idea to start destroying it, whilst the others do minor stuff and waiting.


So, here enters my CR 11 encounter that was specifically designed to deplete their resources and make them leave.

This is where my mistake comes in. I discover that they're not going to flee under save the direst of circumstances.

lvl 11 Druid.
Summary[spoiler]
A Control Winds, Call Lightning, 2x Entangle, Fog Cloud, Bite of the Werebear, Quill Spray, Splinterbolt, Flame Strike, Summon Natures Ally IV and Insect Plauge and many rounds later, the druid is on the run, just to recover his HP which is critical (when BotWerebear wears of, he's dead). The party is in really bad shape except for the fourth member, a daggertossing tiefling which spent the entire encounter either inside the storm or inside the fog cloud. The Ogre's been hit by multiple lightning bolts, the monk was one round from having the swarms eating into his brain and the pixie's pretty hurt aswell

Ok, so they're searching. I'm counting their move actions and compares the Druid in Hawk form. He escapes.[/spoiler]


It's about now I'm tired of disregarding "cause and effect" due to some of them being somewhat new and inexperienced.
One can only do that to a certain extent, then it just won't work anymore.

History:
[spoiler]
I had my upper limit when they decided to attack a lvl 13 wizard and failed to kill him.
They didn't know it was a lvl 13 wizard, but what they did know was that the town they were in was Chaotic Evil and that people too weak to defend themselves would just die there. They even said themselves that they shouldn't try to rob anything, it'll probably end bad. But they liked the idea in general, meant that they could attack nearest short guy if they saw someone apparently. I decided not to pursue them the following with the wizard. Because, let's face it:
Lvl 13 wizard against a lvl 10 party without spellcasters. The wizard is clever enough not to loose that fight.
But I didn't want to kill them. Not yet, they hadn't done too many stupid moves. Yet.

They were about to come.[/spoiler]


The situation intensifies.
[spoiler]
So, they weather turns even more foul. Before, it was raining and blowing strong winds. They all can figure out it's not natural behaviour for a storm, that someone is influencing it. Their Int-check, their question and my decription told them that. The sky darkens even more and the winds pick up speed. It so happens that the Druid sent for back-up with Animal Messenger before attacking the party.
They return to the wagon, the two tieflings and the pixie likes a roof over their head. The Ogre starts pulling it again.
I explicitly ask them in what direction they're going. They're going back into the deeper parts of the woods.

I sigh inwards and thinks "To hell with this, they need to know their actions have negativ consequenses aswell"

Two Lightning storm later through the entire party, the pixie is at -8, the thrower tries to use the wand (no ranks in UMD, but she still tries), the monk stabilize the pixie and the ogre...
Well, the ogre sees 8 blackclad shapes, six of which just stepped out of the trees.[/spoiler]

Some explaning might be in order.
[spoiler]
If no one figured that part out yet, I counted on them knowing when they're overpowered and run. The wouldn't have made it to lvl 10 if they fought every battle they found and I know that at least two of my four players is quite capable of making that conclusion. The other two should as well.
But this is a case of me not knowing my group well enough, coupled with the fact that they pressed on when the wise course would have been to retreat..[/spoiler]

Of bad choices and stubborn fools.
[spoiler]
The ogre decides to leap attack the nearest druid. He rolls a 4 on his initative. Hrrm, hostile movement. Wonder what the druids will do.

A number of lightning strikes later, Garg is at -60 HP and in ashes. Desperatly hoping that they at least can catch my drift now, the next druid in the initative roster calls out "Care to leave now?" instead of blasting them to bits aswell.

They thankfully get the picture and runs the hell out of dodge.[/spoiler]

Of lessons learned and failed expectations
[spoiler]
I had hoped that the blessed cruch would teach them that they couldn't do as they please all the time.
The one that almost fried the pixie warlock when it came into contact with the wall.
Most of the time they can since this isn't a serious campaign. In my serious ones, cause and effect always applies and are constructed quite with more in-depth thought. Not always.

But no.

They at least learned to ask "How does he look like" before interacting with NPC's.
Garg was going to kill a halfling at an inn and the guy tossed a Curse on him. I know, I know, not fair since Garg is Int/Cha 4. However. The halfling was clad in dark robes with death-depicting motifes and wearing a necklace out of bone. Aswell as talking to his table partner about necromancy. But they didn't bother to either ask how he looked or what he was doing. [/spoiler]

*sigh*

I'm a bit tired of having to teach them the hard way, but what can one do?


Am I totally barking up the wrong tree here, or do I have a point in here somewere?
I can take that I've made some misstakes, that's bound to happen since I'm not used to GM'ing.
But I can't shake the feeling that it can't just be my fault.

[Vinom]

 
Some times the PC will not do the smart thing... or the in character thing... Thats why I always keep what is now been called "The Black Folder of Buy the DM a Montain Dew and Stop Being An Idiot" handy... it's every broken and far too challenging thing I've ever thrown at a PC, from swarms of diminutive elementals (fun times), to the transelemental (an elemental that can change his elemental subtype as a free action) and not at all least, the Dire Tarrasque of Legendary Wonder (For when you want to TPK and never speak of that campain again).

[STAT]

Am I totally barking up the wrong tree here, or do I have a point in here somewere?
I can take that I've made some misstakes, that's bound to happen since I'm not used to GM'ing.
But I can't shake the feeling that it can't just be my fault.

I'm not the greatest or most experienced GM ever but I think you may be, as you said, barking up the wrong tree a bit.

My first question is, are you sure your desire to make it so the players can't do what they want all the time is what the players want/expect?  You said originally that this was going to be an easy going game.  To me, that says a game where the players don't have to worry too much about consequences and can get a little cathartic "smashy, smashy" in.  From what you've posted so far it seems like that's sometimes the case but in others it kind of grates you a bit and you have to "teach the players a lesson."  Like that whole druid-forest encounter, was there a reason that the druids had to be so powerful that the player's only option was to turn back?

Part of the problem may be that the easy going gameplay is incongruent with your desire to correct the player's perception of spell casters.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like your plan to show your players the worth of spell casters is by having spell casters kick their asses.  That doesn't seem very easy going to me.  Personally, I'd drop that whole idea from your campaign.  I doubt you'll be able to correct their misconceptions on spell casters by beating them severely.  Like you said, that will probably just lead to bitterness or anger and those will taint their perception of spell casters in the other direction, making them feel they're overpowered.

My recommendation is to adapt to their lack of spell casting.  Maybe throw in less spell casters as bad guys and maybe less monsters with slews of special abilities.  When you do throw them in, tweak them down in power a touch, maybe make them 1 or 2 CR lower to match the party's power level.  When you're choosing spells for your spell casters choose the less optimal spells.  Throw in more mundane enemies.

In my most recent campaign I let everyone pick whatever classes they wanted to play and not to worry about having any "necessary" class.  This left the group without a trapfinder.  What did I do?  I put in less traps.  I don't think they even encountered a trap over the course of like 3 or 4 adventures (then a new player joined as a rogue).  Any locked chests or doors had keys.  Maybe this isn't the way your average D&D campaign is structured but I adapted and my players were none the worse for not having traps in the campaign.

[Shadowhunter]

Well STAT, lesse here

From what you've posted so far it seems like that's sometimes the case but in others it kind of grates you a bit and you have to "teach the players a lesson."

Well, partially correct here. That it got on my nerves at a point is right, but it's not so "much sometimes this, sometimes that" as it's "By now, they've done enough things so that my oversight is strained".
Sure, easygoing should mean less concern about consequences. But at a certain point it doesn't make any sense.
There should eventually be a repricusion. I'm partially right here, the other part is made up of me not being a 100% used to this easygoing stuff.

Like that whole druid-forest encounter, was there a reason that the druids had to be so powerful that the player's only option was to turn back?

Quite, when taking into concideration the local fauna and the fact that the 8 Druids that faced them where the only ones out of aprox. 40 druids judged by the council to succed against these trespassers. As I said, I counted on them making the clever move and not advance further. They expressed profound interest in capturing the first druid, with the reasoning "He'll tell they others and then we'll be so dead". Quite true. When the first druid then escaped and the weather turned bad, I hoped they could have put two and two together. It wasn't like it was too hard to figure out, they practically said it themselves. But Garg, oh Garg. Kudos to the guy playing him though, I've seldom seen an Int 4 character played so well.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like your plan to show your players the worth of spell casters is by having spell casters kick their asses.

Close enough. Not on a regular basis though. The necromancer was a point I wanted to make quite clear beforehand. This might be easygoing, but if you don't care about in what situation you act, you're bound to screw up eventually.

I doubt you'll be able to correct their misconceptions on spell casters by beating them severely.

On a regular basis, I agree that it would lead to irritation and agression. Not what you're aming for as a DM, at least not as a decent one.

But in the case here, it worked like a charm

I came down to the bottom of my Warlock players annoyance at spellcasters. He's used to blaster mages.
Ergo, it's not suprising that he's annoyed when they run out of spells. Evokers tend to cast a spell each turn and then... well.
Stuff is dead, but he's wasted many spells.

Today, I heard the following:
"So, I heard what you said about spellcasters and thought you were wrong. But no, battlefield control is where it's at. Come on, I mean we had a really though fight with that druid because of it. There's gonna be a difference in oppinion even if I listened to begin with, but I saw what it did and seriously."

Paraphrased, I can't remember the exact quote.

My recommendation is to adapt to their lack of spell casting.

That I did to a degree. The Warlock got the most usefull utility spells as scrolls. In combat, you can manage without a spellcaster generally, but situations when spells like Remove Curse and Neutralize Posion are needed and avaible it's really neat.

Another thing, my loot drop have been ridiculous. I thought they needed it. I'm nowhere nere this insane with loot normally, but a few things they've aquired:

Amulet of Natural Armor +3
Bracers of Armor +5
One of each mental tomes (+2)
When the Tiefling daggerthrower player dropped out, they killed her character. In goes a +4 Dexterity Gauntlet of Infinite Blades, a Cloak of Resistance +2, a ring of Protection +2 and a pair of Boots of Speed onto the monk. Had it been a Unarmed Swordsage, I'm sure the Greater Blurring Mithrail Chainmail +2 would have found a new owner quickly aswell.

In my most recent campaign I let everyone pick whatever classes they wanted to play and not to worry about having any "necessary" class.  This left the group without a trapfinder.  What did I do?  I put in less traps

Very commendable

They lack a trapfinder, so I've only had one location that was protected by traps. There, however, the not so Int 18 wizard tried to solve the puzzle by ignoring the text. One trap activated. He continues, setting of another 4 traps all in all.
Here I made a mental note to skip puzzles when he's around. He doesn't like them at all.
Sure, I can make sure of that, no problem. Just testing the water.


I admit I'm not even close to being as adaptive as I'd like to be. I'm a passable DM, but nowhere nere a good one without it being a serious campaign starting at the lower levels (1-6). I'm as I said, not used to higher.


But all in all, I think it worked out nice.

The Warlock player found acceptance of spellcasters.
The Ogre player rerolled a Drow Wizard (evoker, but he's quickly running out of spells and seems to learn that blasting isn't optimal).
The Monk player is just happy to be hit by Draconic Polymorph before ripping stuff to pieces.
And they all have fun.

Now, they're heading for a siege. There's a Holy Crusade (TM) out and about, which have laid siege against Blackspire (the chaotic evil city) and they've just paid of an Elf Rogue Wayfarer (as in a Rogue ex-member of the Wayfarer's Guild, not a Rogue/Wizard/Wayfarer Guide combination) to teleport them from Piratehaven (name pending) to a couple of miles to the city. This will get... interesting. Out of hand. Insane. Fun.


I'm very grateful for your critique/thoughts.

This campaign is turning out to be quite neat really.

[STAT]

It seems like you've been able to work through most of your problems now so congrats.  I only wish it were that easy to change my player's minds.