Author Topic: Epic Spellcasting [Revision]  (Read 3323 times)

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Bauglir

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Epic Spellcasting [Revision]
« on: April 01, 2009, 09:57:39 PM »
« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 01:51:29 AM by Bauglir »
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veekie

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Re: Epic Spellcasting [Revision]
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2009, 02:34:03 PM »
Hmm, I personally prefer epic spellcasting to be an extension of the spellcasting system from 1-20, basically giving out guidelines for the creation of 10+ level spells. Probably build Improved Spell Capacity into all casting classes, though that'd apparently warrant giving something to meleers too.
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[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
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To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
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woodenbandman

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Re: Epic Spellcasting [Revision]
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2009, 02:50:33 PM »
I personally don't touch epic play with an industrial strength 11 foot pole. It is just broken. It's truenamer broken.

Hmm... Actually... if Truenaming were the way that epic spellcasting worked, it might just balance out...

Bauglir

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Re: Epic Spellcasting [Revision]
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2009, 03:47:33 PM »
Nah, Truenaming is still based on a skill. That makes it too easy to be ridiculous, at least with the skill system the way it is.

The level 10+ spells could work. So we'd put together a formula for determining spell slots based on the current system, provide a table from level 21-40 of it for convenience, and need to create the guidelines. That'd be the difficult part. I'm thinking seeds and factors are still useful, and the final spell level would be based on what's currently the final Spellcraft DC (perhaps divide the DC by 3 to determine the spell level). Then we'd just need to set about balancing the seeds and factors?
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veekie

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Re: Epic Spellcasting [Revision]
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2009, 04:22:48 PM »
Yep, do to most spells what the Rebalancing Project was doing to Polymorph, break any open ended spells and effects into quantized chunks of effects, you can summon/call/create a creature, but not from a monster manual, you get to build your own epic beastie out of generic outsider HD. Unless you are calling up an existing critter and bargaining/dominating it, which is a different spell use entirely(Scry+Teleport/PlaneShift+Mind Control).

I figure direct damage, and the various status effect things are easiest.
Oh, and make it easier to expand the spell's area of effect, or range. After a certain point, it's tactically insignificant(whats the difference between a 120ft radius spell and a 1200ft radius spell in tactical combat unless you are screwing with Explosive Spell or fighting an army of mooks?), but flavorwise very much so.

Something has to be done about mitigating factors though. The ones with expending more resources for a greater effect(xp burn, expensive material component/focus, more spell slots) are asking for trouble, if left open ended. Casting time increase is another one, the 'cost' diminishes once you get it out of tactical combat(anything more than a round, essentially), especially if increasing duration is cheaper than the benefit of increasing cast time.

Some of these will have to be relegated to ritual only stuff. Plot Casting shouldn't come out of the same pool as combat casting.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 04:31:42 PM by veekie »
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Epic Spellcasting [Revision]
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2009, 04:46:15 PM »
Honestly, I feel Epic should be left out of the project entirely. Think about it: it's difficult enough to challenge high level parties without nearly TPKing them all; anything less than that is a cakewalk for them (especially casters). The simplest solution (Occam's Razor) is to discontinue Epic play entirely.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Ashtagon

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Re: Epic Spellcasting [Revision]
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2009, 06:23:56 AM »
Personally, I think one way to adapt epic spells would be to say that each 20 (or whatever number) ranks of Spellcraft DC converts to one spell level, and say that each epic level spell uses up a spell slot of an arbitrarily high level. Caster classes can then gain higher-level spell slots by extending the spell progression tables. Those higher-level spell slots could be used either for metamagiced spells, or for epic level spells.

Omen of Peace

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Re: Epic Spellcasting [Revision]
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2009, 06:40:48 AM »
You can have a look at the Epic Compendium in my sig - it has links to alternate epic spellcasting systems. (I'm surprised veekie didn't mention FeanMerc.)

- Regarding mitigating factors: the final cost shouldn't be able to go below a fixed fraction (1/2 or 1/3 or...) of the cost before mitigation.
That way your world-destroying ritual at DC 1500 can't go below 500... and you can't cast it until your level is damn high.

- But the problem is that epic spells are much too expensive to develop in low epic (which should be the only target IMO, high epic is yet another entirely different beast). You could start by reducing the price to 5000gp/DC point.
I like how the Feanmerc relies on Improved Spell Capacity and attributes levels to epic spells so I'd nab that too.

...

Good luck !
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 06:44:33 AM by Omen of Peace »
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veekie

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Re: Epic Spellcasting [Revision]
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2009, 07:48:50 AM »
Well, I did remember FeanMerc, but theres a couple of versions where they took some steps back I didn't quite like(changing to a feat per spell in the end ala NWN was one of them). Plus, I'd like to see what direction things would take without prior influence from similar works.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Omen of Peace

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Re: Epic Spellcasting [Revision]
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2009, 12:51:47 PM »
Really ? I wasn't aware of those changes at all... they do seem suck from what you said. Could you point me to the latest version(s) ?

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veekie

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Re: Epic Spellcasting [Revision]
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2009, 04:36:26 PM »
Well, seems like THAT particular version vanished into the recesses of the internet the last time Dicefreaks went poof(Happens a lot, that). I've found the apparently non-sucky version still around here though.

Might have been my faulty memory though. That happens a lot too.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Omen of Peace

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Re: Epic Spellcasting [Revision]
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2009, 10:43:39 PM »
Yeah, that's the version I link to in the Compendium. But I have no other point of reference - it's the first one I read.
Oh well, we'll never know if it's the chaos in your brain or the chaos in Dicefreaks. ;)
The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Steven Erikson

Bauglir

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Re: Epic Spellcasting [Revision]
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2009, 01:35:21 AM »
Cool, thanks. I'll need to absorb that over a period of however long it takes me after school's done. Between the final stretch of classes, helping run a campaign several states away, and playing Galactic Civilizations to relax and keep sane, I've got little time.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

Prime32

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Re: Epic Spellcasting [Revision]
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2009, 03:28:14 PM »
I would go with granting spellcasters additional levels of spells at half the normal rate (10th-level at 21st, 11th-level at 25th, etc.) - these can normally be used only with metamagic, but you can take feats to learn single spells above 9th level.
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The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
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Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
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Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Bauglir

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Re: Epic Spellcasting [Revision]
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2009, 09:34:09 PM »
That sounds reasonable. Metamagic makes it useful on its own, and the way epic prestige classes tend to work, you need to stay in your base class to keep getting full casting. Will need to make a note that no Epic prestige class should grant full casting...
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Kerrick

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Re: Epic Spellcasting [Revision]
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2009, 01:09:42 AM »
If I may, I'd like to advance my own spellcasting system. It's a logical extension of the existing spell system in that legendary spells have levels; they're built by combining normal (0-9th level) spells and adding modifiers as necessary.
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Bauglir

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Re: Epic Spellcasting [Revision]
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2009, 01:50:20 AM »
Well, I can't sleep so I slapped something together for a basis. I'm also tired, so it's probably crap, and I haven't had the opportunity to look through the Feanmerc system yet, so be warned. Let me know what you think, it's in the first post in an sblock.
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Kerrick

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Re: Epic Spellcasting [Revision]
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2009, 12:46:06 AM »
It's a little hard to understand, but let me take a shot at it.

At 19th, 21st, 23rd, etc. you get 1 spell slot for every level you can cast.

At 21st, 25th, etc., you get 1 spell slot of the next highest level (so a L21 full caster like cleric/wizard would get L10; a bard would get L7; and a half-caster would get L5). You cannot, however, ever get more slots at any level than your normal maximum (6 for sorcerers, or 4 for other casters).

This is the part I'm stumbling over, though:

Quote
Does this mean that post-9th-level, each spell slot counts double for purposes of metamagic? That is, if I had access to L11 spells, I could only modify a L9 spell with a feat that adds +1, not +2? That's kind of an odd way to do it, especially if you want to stack metamagic feats on a lower-level spell (say, an intensified polar ray). It's similar to the wonkiness of the EAB/EAS system. Personally, I see nothing wrong with allowing normal metamagic - those higher-level slots are extremely rare and thus precious; having one or two metamagicked-out-the-ass spells shouldn't be game-breaking, especially since everyone will just take the feat anyway.
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Bauglir

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Re: Epic Spellcasting [Revision]
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2009, 01:51:21 AM »
That's probably true. At the time, I was thinking I wanted to make it slightly less of a random bonus for spellcasters. The feat, you'll note, requires waiting an additional 2 levels, although that really won't make much difference and it should be level 24 instead in retrospect. I think at the time I was worried that casters, who don't really need any additional random bonuses, would be getting too much. Will reconsider.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.