Author Topic: What About the Quiet and the Timid?  (Read 3660 times)

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Josh

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What About the Quiet and the Timid?
« on: March 30, 2009, 12:26:27 PM »
What About the Quiet and the Timid?

I am going to say something that I want you to really consider.

"The quiet timid player is just as bad and just as disruptive to the game as the jerky aggressive player.  In fact, he is likely worse and with less chance of overcoming his limitations."

Looking at the situation from dispassionate neutrality.  the timid wallflower player (Timmy) can be just as disruptive to overall play as the aggressive jerk player (Aggie).   Every time it is Timmy's turn he takes forever to decide what to do and then always ends up doing something lame.  All kinds of gaming are creative endeavors, every time Timmy needs to be creative, play stops and everyone waits for him.  If you try to help, you make it worse he gets flustered and intimidated.  Gaming is also about stepping up to a challenge.  If there are 5 people in the group and Timmy never steps up, the other players have 20% less game.

I like players who are jerks or argumentative.  They are interested, they play the game(involved), and they do stuff.  The stupidest thing anyone can complain about is excited.  He is excited to be in your game?  Better nip that in the bud, he might start enjoying himself next.  Aggie is a good player in the sense that I(the GM) can do  something with him, and he can play along with the rest of the group.  Better than Timmy who wont do anything

I can turn a jerk into a great player(eventually) I can do very little with a wallflower
« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 01:50:13 PM by Josh »
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InnaBinder

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Re: What About the Quiet and the Timid?
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2009, 04:32:39 PM »
You're defining quiet and timid in a way that specifically supports your point.  I've known several quiet, socially timid players who are quite good at the rules and quick to make tactically sound decisions both during combat and character creation/leveling, sometimes to the point of others asking 'Timmy' for advice which he'll give once asked, even if he's too shy to offer it uninvited. 
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Glendower

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Re: What About the Quiet and the Timid?
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2009, 06:10:24 PM »
Player investment is really tricky to gauge when I deal with Wallflowers. In a game I played a few weeks ago we had this happen. 

When a situation came up, and it was Kris' turn to act, he just shrugged and said "I dunno, come back to me." until everyone else had acted, and then spent his action "just watching". 

As a player I feel it's part of my responsibility to engage with and involve the other players, so I call out for help from him, as part of my action.  That gives him something to do, but after he helps me out on his action, he's back to watching and doing very little else. This is during a storm, and there are a number of different things the GM was pushing out there to deal with, more problems than there are characters.  He had choices, he chose not to get involved in the choices.

I try this again with a brief conversation between his character and mine, trying to focus on the little Kris has revealed about the character. Though I think I'm able to entertain him, he's not giving me anything back to work with. 

There's a sense that he's shirking his responsibilities as a player to engage in what's going on, and interact with the other players, or do anything to advance his or other people's interests in the game.

That drain can be really hard at times.  We've dealt with it by giving him an opportunity to engage, but accepting a "I'm not sure what to do right now" as an action and moving to the next person.  Not ideal, I know, but the alternative, where we try to figure out what he can do, and give suggestions until he says  of "yeah, I do that", every single time his turn comes around, it can really slow down play and kill the energy of the scene. 

Josh

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Re: What About the Quiet and the Timid?
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2009, 06:44:41 PM »
You're defining quiet and timid in a way that specifically supports your point.  I've known several quiet, socially timid players who are quite good at the rules and quick to make tactically sound decisions both during combat and character creation/leveling, sometimes to the point of others asking 'Timmy' for advice which he'll give once asked, even if he's too shy to offer it uninvited. 

Actually I define them as the counterpoint to the aggressive guy.  Aggressive does not mean bad, unless it is.  Timid does not mean bad, unless it is.

So yes I define the example I am referring to.

Player investment is really tricky to gauge when I deal with Wallflowers. In a game I played a few weeks ago we had this happen. 


So now imagine instead you had a pushy aggressive player, you would have more to work with, right?
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wildduck

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Re: What About the Quiet and the Timid?
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2009, 06:49:42 PM »
My experience mirrors InnaBinder's, timid players they rarely disrupt play.  I've also had many loud, obnoxious players take forever to decide what they are going to do and then do something lame.

Quiet/Timid/Wallflower does not correlate to either slowing down game or doing lame things in game.

Where I do feel they bring down the game is in energy.  Everyone involved is pouring energy into the game to make it fun for all, except the timid player.  They put very little into the excitement of the game, they put very little into the game period.   Often the game is still quite rewarding for them.  They get to interact exactly as much as they want and get a great show put on by the rest of the group. 

The group suffers however as there is always awkwardness around the player that acts differently from the others.  Just as someone hogging the spotlight steals fun from other players, someone unwilling to carry the torch and do their part fails the group as well. 

So I agree with the premise that quiet timid players are a problem, I just disagree with the reasons.

Personally I've found two things that worked in varying degrees to get timid players to be more engaged depending on the source of their timidness.

1.   Remove the fear of getting it wrong.  Sometimes players are afraid of doing something wrong, either not understand the mechanics adequately or not having the role-playing presence that the other players do.  In both cases you can draw them out by cushioning those fears. 

In the first case, try out some new mechanics, or a whole new system that nobody understands (Burning Wheel is a great one for this because it has so much crunch) and explain that we're all just figuring things out and that the first few sessions will be a bit slow and jerky as we look things up in the book and figure out the rules.  Yeah, that can make for some game sessions that are rough around the edges but if it ends with a group of people that all understand the game and (more importantly) feel comfortable playing it, you'll have a better game in the end. 

For the second, usually they don't want their character to look stupid (or for them to look stupid), so give them someone else to play with.  In my Mage game I made the players take the rolls of the NPCs (handing them a little card with their characteristics and motivations).  I found that my wallflower player totally came alive when he was playing the scary ass mafia don, or the effeminate media exec.  In fact he ended up owning those characters because he did such a good job.

2. Find something they like and throw it into the game.  You guys (by that I mean BG) has already talked about this in the show but it was good enough that it is worth repeating.  Meg for instance loves geology, so if you throw some rock lore in the game, she'll be more excited about it.  Meg is already a very active player, but the same tactic works (and has even more impressive results) on the timid player.  Some players stay quiet because there are only a few things in the game they enjoy, but once you find them they will light up.  The  next step is to get the player to start pushing for them on their own.  So you find out your timid player is really only interested in intrigue, or combat, or research.  Start off by giving them some of it and then work with them to incorporate it into the game.  You know the whole give a man a fire and he'll be warm for a night, set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life story.  The trick here is finding what gets them exited.  But even that isn't that cryptic.  Asking them probably won't work because if they knew it they would probably have already told you.  But look at what kind of movies or books they like, what other hobbies they have, etc.  Try a few things and see what sticks.

woodenbandman

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Re: What About the Quiet and the Timid?
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2009, 06:57:00 PM »
For the second, usually they don't want their character to look stupid (or for them to look stupid), so give them someone else to play with.  In my Mage game I made the players take the rolls of the NPCs (handing them a little card with their characteristics and motivations).  I found that my wallflower player totally came alive when he was playing the scary ass mafia don, or the effeminate media exec.  In fact he ended up owning those characters because he did such a good job.

That is an extremely interesting sentiment. I think I'll talk to my group about that.

Glendower

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Re: What About the Quiet and the Timid?
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2009, 06:57:33 PM »

Player investment is really tricky to gauge when I deal with Wallflowers. In a game I played a few weeks ago we had this happen. 


So now imagine instead you had a pushy aggressive player, you would have more to work with, right?

Absolutely right.  In fact, there is a pushy aggressive player in the game, and when he tries to loudly and boisterously get the goals for his character met, he leaves behind all kinds of interesting things to grab onto. As a player, I appreciate aggressive play because I can oppose the character, or team up with the character, or engage with that character knowing what his goals are, and using his goals to get my goals met.

With the wallflower, I have nothing to work with.  I'm given nothing to grab onto, and therefore I have no idea how to engage with that person.

It's also interesting that aggressive play is a very clear indicator that a person cares about what's happening at the table. Wallflowers may care, but they aren't visibly showing it in the way an aggressive person does. The thing is, if you aren't visibly indicating you care about the game, then the results are the same as not caring about the game.  That person lets everyone else down, and that can really put a damper on play.

wildduck

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Re: What About the Quiet and the Timid?
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2009, 07:18:50 PM »
Absolutely right.  In fact, there is a pushy aggressive player in the game, and when he tries to loudly and boisterously get the goals for his character met, he leaves behind all kinds of interesting things to grab onto. As a player, I appreciate aggressive play because I can oppose the character, or team up with the character, or engage with that character knowing what his goals are, and using his goals to get my goals met.

With the wallflower, I have nothing to work with.  I'm given nothing to grab onto, and therefore I have no idea how to engage with that person.
Totally agree, and that is where the awkwardness comes in.  You want to interact with them, because they are sitting across from you and haven't said anything all night but you have no idea what to say.  So you try something and they block by not engaging. 

Consider someone who doesn't want to confront another player however.  If the GM tells them an NPC disagrees with them, they can try to argue with the NPC and bring it to a roll.  In most games (with some notable exceptions in the indie arena) player vs. player conflict however is all done outside of the system, it's just two people arguing where the louder more persistent person will win out simply through verbal endurance.   This isn't a discussion of the aggressive player (I'm sure that is elsewhere on this post) but I think it is important not to glorify that role.  The overly aggressive player has all manner of issues of their own.

It's also interesting that aggressive play is a very clear indicator that a person cares about what's happening at the table. Wallflowers may care, but they aren't visibly showing it in the way an aggressive person does. The thing is, if you aren't visibly indicating you care about the game, then the results are the same as not caring about the game.  That person lets everyone else down, and that can really put a damper on play.
I've been surprised over and over by wallflower players that say after the game they had a great time.  First I wonder "are they lying to me, just trying to make me feel better" but then I've heard it from other players who talk to them when I'm not around.  I'm sure there are players that just don't care, but wallflowers don't have the monopoly on this.  An old friend of mine who I love playing with when he enjoys the game, I hate when he's lost interest.  As soon as things are boring for him, he'll just start declaring war on anything and everything that comes in his path.  Verbal, physical, psychic, he doesn't care.  He just starts shooting.  And if you counter him, he'll just shoot you.  He's aggressive (though not loud) but clearly has no interest in the game at that point.

I think everyone has their own signs of being bored.  If the wallflower is sitting on the edge of their seat and raptly paying attention to what people are doing, chance are he or she is still interested.  If they are reading a book the whole game, odds are they aren't.   Even then, it's a matter of finding out how players tick.  One of the best GMs I've played under can drive me nuts when I run game for him because whenever he's not acting he'll be reading a book or writing up notes for another game.  I talked to him about it and it isn't that he's not interested, it's that he's got a very active mind and doesn't want to hog all of the spotlight, so once he's done doing his part he distracts himself with something else.

Glendower

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Re: What About the Quiet and the Timid?
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2009, 07:29:32 PM »
I've been surprised over and over by wallflower players that say after the game they had a great time. 

I've been in that kind of situation, and I tend to feel really upset about getting this feedback.  Finding out after the game that someone had fun is way too late.  I need to know that during play, and the only way to know for sure is for that person to actually engage and interact with the players at the table.

I understand reading body language and so forth. but even if they're hanging onto every word, it still contributes nothing to the game at hand if the person continually refuses to get involved.  The words "dead wood" come to mind.

wildduck

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Re: What About the Quiet and the Timid?
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2009, 08:00:41 PM »
I've been in that kind of situation, and I tend to feel really upset about getting this feedback.  Finding out after the game that someone had fun is way too late... The words "dead wood" come to mind.

I think there is a fork in this road.  Is the goal we're looking for how to get wallflower players to engange the game more? Or is the goal, how should we cope with gamers that don't meet our expectations?

If we look at the second, then any kind of "less than desirable player" can be included.  The quiet one, the aggressive one, the one that uses gaming as therapy, etc.

In the last Narrative Control episode (10 Questions) I said that if I had a player who was not enjoying the game I'd rather they just left.  In a convention setting, you can't really do much about the players in your game (unless they are REALLY offensive), but in your home game, it is an option, albeit a really crappy one.

I'm really fortunate to have 12-15 people in my area to game with, so I have the ability to be picky about my players. About 6 months ago I called out two players in my gaming circle.   They were both pissing me off because they didn't care about the game.  In this case neither of them were wallflowers, they were both just being very derisive to the game.  The entire thing exploded. Luckily one of the guys in our group is a great mediator and helped is work through it, but telling a player "you suck because of XYZ" (which is essentially what I did) I advise against.

Another option is to try and block these people out.  Ignore them and interact as little as possible.  I doubt this is particularly helpful either.

Of course talking to the player, asking them what they want, engaging in meaningful conversation is the best solution, but my guess is something that most of us have already tried and gotten disappointing results.   To offer something in the way of a solution for opening up this dialog and to pimp my show, I'm going to recommend checking out Narrative Control - Episode 24 - 10 questions to ask your players as a possible conversation starter.

Anyone else found useful ways to cope with the players that don't live up to your expectations?

InnaBinder

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Re: What About the Quiet and the Timid?
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2009, 08:26:15 PM »
Quote
Consider someone who doesn't want to confront another player however.  If the GM tells them an NPC disagrees with them, they can try to argue with the NPC and bring it to a roll.  In most games (with some notable exceptions in the indie arena) player vs. player conflict however is all done outside of the system, it's just two people arguing where the louder more persistent person will win out simply through verbal endurance.   This isn't a discussion of the aggressive player (I'm sure that is elsewhere on this post) but I think it is important not to glorify that role.  The overly aggressive player has all manner of issues of their own.
Once again wildduck's experience mirrors mine.  There are going to inevitably be situations in many games where 1)the GM and players want the social interaction to be more than 'I roll my Diplomacy check' or the equivalent 2) one player is louder and more aggressive/persistent than the other players and/or the GM.  If the GM has to spend 30 minutes of a 4 hour session debating with 'Aggie' over a single social interaction because 'Aggie' will not stop arguing the point until it is conceded in his favor, nobody else at the table benefits much from the experience, as far as I can tell.
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Zeke

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Re: What About the Quiet and the Timid?
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2009, 02:14:29 PM »
I usually find agressive easier to deal with. You meet their needs by chalenging them. The cripplingly timid player is very hard to motiviate and I have had a few of them over the years be very disruptive. The difference is it's usally a grindingly passive agressive annoyance instead of the firey burst that is the agressive player.

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Re: What About the Quiet and the Timid?
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2009, 06:42:54 PM »
I have problems with them just not paying attention to what is going on.  Most of my experiences with quite players have been that they just don't care enough about the game to bother doing anything until i tell them to role init.

I know this isn't the normal situation for quite players, but i still feel it falls under this heading. Sadly for the most part i can't get these people involved enough in the game to find out what they want from it.  They keep showing back up despite the insane time we play, weekly starting normally around 1am Friday nights until we can't go any longer, so they either really like it or have some grudge against sleep.
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