Author Topic: It is Your Fault.  (Read 13507 times)

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Brainpiercing

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Re: It is Your Fault.
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2009, 07:07:23 AM »
Ok, so what DO you do if this guy is accusing you of taking too long with your actions after only taking about one or two minutes?
what is the game and situation?  And why is he/she antsy?  

I see this when one person takes a long time, the troublemaker will snap at the next person.  

So what is the case?
The deal is that I took long in one session. So far so good, he criticized me for it. But he keeps doing it. I have all my characters/critters whatever scripted in a spreadsheet, and have spells well sorted out, at least for combat. Round actions take 30 seconds, maybe a minute. He still keeps bitching that I'm taking too long. I keep telling him that I only need to hit a button to do MY fourteen attacks, while he has to roll 6 attacks and a fuckton of damage dice by hand, who will be faster? Doesn't disconcert him in the least. And he's a fairly nice guy, normally, he just got it into his head that I take too long. (The actual reason is that he can't compete game/character wise, so this is really a penis contest in disguise. I've offered help, and he has been partly receptive. Still, there is no complete resolution in sight.)

Now I don't dispute that I (and the GM) DO need to do something about that. We actually did, there is just this remnant of stress remaining, which we haven't managed to get rid of.

Need I say this is the same guy as the one that whacked another guy with peanut packets?

Quote
Quote
Quote
Every specific example has shown to be flawed.

Every one.

So far, so let's hear the first real case.
I haven't been disproven. You have to do it first before you can claim it.
You have causality reversed.  I can easily prove that I can't think of some in game problem that can't be solved.  I do so by stating it.  
You can THINK something, but that was not your statement. You stated something entirely different, earlier.  Namely:
Quote
Every specific example has shown to be flawed.

Every one.
Please prove this statement.

Quote
Now you posit an actual situation that cannot be solved.

It would do no good for me to list solvable situations.
I also does us no good to post unsolvable situations if all you say in response is : I can think of a solvable situation.

Quote
Where to start?
-play a game everyone is interested in
-play a good game
-Actually play that game
-Deal with the problems of the game, at the level of the game.
-be open and honest
Only play with players who are capable of doing all this? Kick people out?
« Last Edit: July 17, 2009, 07:09:17 AM by Brainpiercing »

RobbyPants

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Re: It is Your Fault.
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2009, 09:36:35 AM »
Where to start?
-play a game everyone is interested in
-play a good game
-Actually play that game
-Deal with the problems of the game, at the level of the game.
-be open and honest

That being said, this is not a real example.
While it's not a real example, it does make a good point.  It is quite possible for someone to realize that they can get away with their bad behavior by pushing and testing the DM's limits.  Dick has figured out Bob will only go so far.  I guess I don't see the problem with ultimatums if the first approach doesn't work and you've given it an honest effort.

Having the group play a different game can be an option if everyone is truely cool with that.  In my experience with picking things like that (what game to play, where to go out to eat, what movie to watch), someone is always settling, so when you opt to change to please someone, you end up disapointing someone else.  It's basically robbing Peter to pay Paul.  So if you can find a new game to play that everyone want to play, great!  If not, the problem is more complicated.
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PaladinRevenant

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Re: It is Your Fault.
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2009, 01:03:07 PM »
Dick is being a dick. He respects one player: a friend of his, but doesn't respect any of the others. He often does mean things in and out of character at the expense of the other players for cheap laughs (which his friend finds amusing). He roleplays an evil character who plays mean pranks on others and justifies the in-game behavior as roleplay.

Part of this problem has been addressed.  Take care of in-game problems within the game.  If Dick is antagonizing the other characters, there's nothing inherently wrong with the other characters taking action against him.  If Dick's character steals something from another character, that character can reciprocate by attempting to recover his lost item by guile, violence, or bargaining.  I.E. If he steals from the healer, the healer can refuse to heal him.  It's completely within character for someone to not want to help a person who has wronged them.  A slightly more devious option might be to hold off until Dick's character does something illegal in a city or town, and then notify the guard of the offense and have his liberty put in jeopardy.

These are all in-game examples.  Out of game is a completely different can of worms.  If someone is throwing snacks (like peanuts) then revoke their snack privileges since they're just wasting them and making a mess.  There are lots of options, sometimes you just have to get creative.

veekie

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Re: It is Your Fault.
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2009, 01:34:08 PM »
Something that a lot of people seem to be glossing over is why it's GOOD for the problem to be your fault.  If the problem is somebody else's fault, then there's nothing you can do except hope that they change their ways.  If you take ownership of the problem and say that there is something that you are doing wrong, or could be doing better, then you have a chance of changing something and coming to a resolution.

People are astoundingly resistant to making changes in themselves, even for the better, if the suggestion to do so comes from outside themselves.  I know I've been guilty of this myself.  But if you recognize that there is something that you can change about yourself to make the situation better, then something might actually get done.  If you go to someone and say "You're being an asshole, stop doing that" they will immediately go on the defensive and nothing will be accomplished.  If you instead say "Is there something about me, what I'm doing, or my character that is causing you to act this way?" they are much more likely to be receptive.  There's probably a better way of approaching that situation, but I'm not a sociologist.
I think this is a good point, espescially from a pragmatic point of view if you're looking to make the problem go away.  It doesn't necessarily solve the problem though.  I guess it depends on what end solution you're looking for.

In some situations it can be an elegant solution to get rid of strife and let the game go on.  In others, I think you may just find yourself tolerating something you'd rather not.

I think this take is pretty much it for whatever thought process you may be using on an issue. It doesn't matter whose fault it is while the problem is in effect, what matters is how it can be resolved satisfactorily, with minimum pain all around.

Then you find out who caused it and how it can be prevented from happening again. This does not require 'punishment' at any point.
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Josh

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Re: It is Your Fault.
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2009, 10:40:47 PM »
The deal is that I took long in one session. So far so good, he criticized me for it. But he keeps doing it. I have all my characters/critters whatever scripted in a spreadsheet, and have spells well sorted out, at least for combat. Round actions take 30 seconds, maybe a minute. He still keeps bitching that I'm taking too long. I keep telling him that I only need to hit a button to do MY fourteen attacks, while he has to roll 6 attacks and a fuckton of damage dice by hand, who will be faster? Doesn't disconcert him in the least. And he's a fairly nice guy, normally, he just got it into his head that I take too long. (The actual reason is that he can't compete game/character wise, so this is really a penis contest in disguise. I've offered help, and he has been partly receptive. Still, there is no complete resolution in sight.)

Now I don't dispute that I (and the GM) DO need to do something about that. We actually did, there is just this remnant of stress remaining, which we haven't managed to get rid of.

Need I say this is the same guy as the one that whacked another guy with peanut packets?
Good, this example is real.  The issue is likely jealousy, and game too complicated.  Essentially you need to track down the root of the guys problem (and yours) the game does not satisfy either of you. 

You even know that the issue is solvable.  So this is not a very good example.

Quote
Every specific example has shown to be flawed.

Every one.
Please prove this statement.

[/quote]
Sure.  See above.  It is the only example you have given. 

Quote
Quote
Where to start?
-play a game everyone is interested in
-play a good game
-Actually play that game
-Deal with the problems of the game, at the level of the game.
-be open and honest
Only play with players who are capable of doing all this? Kick people out?
Sure.  Playing with children or the retarded may not be your style.

thats a joke,  everyone who games is capable of these things.
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McPoyo

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Re: It is Your Fault.
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2009, 01:20:53 PM »
So we should always adjust the game we are playing if 5/6 players are happy with it, and all 6 new what type of game it was going to be before we started gaming, just because 1 person doesn't like the game and is being disruptive about it? That doesn't jive.

And, to be fair, the example provided by Skydragonknight has happened 4 times in the last decade of me running games, so it isn't a "non-real example" or whatever phrasing you used on the previous page.
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They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

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Zeke

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Re: It is Your Fault.
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2009, 04:02:44 PM »
So we should always adjust the game we are playing if 5/6 players are happy with it, and all 6 new what type of game it was going to be before we started gaming, just because 1 person doesn't like the game and is being disruptive about it? That doesn't jive.

And, to be fair, the example provided by Skydragonknight has happened 4 times in the last decade of me running games, so it isn't a "non-real example" or whatever phrasing you used on the previous page.

I don't think that's what's being said, and I would not advocate it in those words. It might be usefull to see if a subtle change might make everyone happy. For example we had a game heavy with sex and romance, of the 5 people at the table four really enjoyed it and one was rather uncomfortable with it. Josh made some changes which allowed that players character to opt out of those situations and to be idaproving of our character's actions in game. This was hilarious allowed  us to have our fun with out making the other player participate in things which made him uncomfortable. If you can't make the subtle adjustment, at least you tried to think about it. Talking abou the direction fo the game  openly might also be edifying for everyone. The ratio of like to dislike might not be as skewed as you think

Brainpiercing

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Re: It is Your Fault.
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2009, 04:18:27 PM »
Quote
Good, this example is real.  The issue is likely jealousy, and game too complicated.  Essentially you need to track down the root of the guys problem (and yours) the game does not satisfy either of you.

You even know that the issue is solvable.  So this is not a very good example.
Ok, to take this further:
The game IS complicated, because we wanted to play a complicated game (Epic D&D). The trouble is that each of us had different ideas how such a game should look like, and the likely compromises will result in curbing every player's fun by a certain degree. That's fine, but even the compromises that were reached don't satisfy this guy when he feels like bitching, even though we previously agreed on them.

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Re: It is Your Fault.
« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2009, 04:33:23 PM »
It sounds like you are taking responsbility and trying. You are trying to understand what each person's expectatiosn were.

skydragonknight

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Re: It is Your Fault.
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2009, 01:52:59 AM »
I think I'll add another point that not every Player or GM has a degree in Interpersonal Communication and in fact a startling percentage of them have below average people skills. I imagine you(Josh) would still expect them to try to solve their problems to the best of their abilities, but can you at least concede that not every person knows how to solve a given problem: and if they don't know how to fix a problem, they can't be expected to fix it.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 02:22:48 AM by skydragonknight »
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Caffeinemage

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Re: It is Your Fault.
« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2009, 01:58:04 AM »
The deal is that I took long in one session. So far so good, he criticized me for it. But he keeps doing it. I have all my characters/critters whatever scripted in a spreadsheet, and have spells well sorted out, at least for combat. Round actions take 30 seconds, maybe a minute. He still keeps bitching that I'm taking too long. I keep telling him that I only need to hit a button to do MY fourteen attacks, while he has to roll 6 attacks and a fuckton of damage dice by hand, who will be faster? Doesn't disconcert him in the least. And he's a fairly nice guy, normally, he just got it into his head that I take too long. (The actual reason is that he can't compete game/character wise, so this is really a penis contest in disguise. I've offered help, and he has been partly receptive. Still, there is no complete resolution in sight.)

Now I don't dispute that I (and the GM) DO need to do something about that. We actually did, there is just this remnant of stress remaining, which we haven't managed to get rid of.

To be honest, this fortune-cookie advice 'play a good game' stuff is getting annoying, because people are afraid to give specific advice.  So here's what I'd say:

First off, this is not your fault.  I don't care if fault is a problem solving vehicle or a jet to Paris, you shouldn't have to solve this problem yourself.  Assuming you're not doing anything wrong, the most you should have to do is speak to the DM.  Unfortunately, throughout the years, there have been some really rude GMs who have abused their power, so GMs now are afraid to put their feet down, even though they're the ones taking responsibility for the game.  

If I were DMing, I would bring a stopwatch to the game, then take an average of your rounds throughout a combat V the Dbag's rounds per combat.  Then afterwards, at a break, I'd take the Dbag into the hall and show him those averages, then ask him why he's being a Dbag. Likely, he was just messing with you and didn't realize it was getting to you. Unless the guy says it's jealousy, I doubt it.  If he's not taking the game seriously enough to pay attention, he's probably not that concerned about his power level.  But it was very nice of you to try to help him with his character.  If he's disruptive in general, I might ask him to avoid the caffeine (If I were DM), or ask him if he'd like to take more frequent breaks to alleviate boredom.  However, I would still inform him, nicely but firmly, that he had to lay off. That being said, if ribbing makes you nervous (and I'm not faulting you at all for that, I've played with a lot of shy people over the years) I might ask you yourself to lay off the caffeine, or ask if there's some way to make you more relaxed during the game.

Either way, it's not your fault at all.  If there is a problem, it is for the problem player and the DM to solve.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 02:01:45 AM by Caffeinemage »

Josh

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Re: It is Your Fault.
« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2009, 02:23:16 AM »
The deal is that I took long in one session. So far so good, he criticized me for it. But he keeps doing it. I have all my characters/critters whatever scripted in a spreadsheet, and have spells well sorted out, at least for combat. Round actions take 30 seconds, maybe a minute. He still keeps bitching that I'm taking too long. I keep telling him that I only need to hit a button to do MY fourteen attacks, while he has to roll 6 attacks and a fuckton of damage dice by hand, who will be faster? Doesn't disconcert him in the least. And he's a fairly nice guy, normally, he just got it into his head that I take too long. (The actual reason is that he can't compete game/character wise, so this is really a penis contest in disguise. I've offered help, and he has been partly receptive. Still, there is no complete resolution in sight.)

Now I don't dispute that I (and the GM) DO need to do something about that. We actually did, there is just this remnant of stress remaining, which we haven't managed to get rid of.

To be honest, this fortune-cookie advice 'play a good game' stuff is getting annoying, because people are afraid to give specific advice.  So here's what I'd say:

First off, this is not your fault.  I don't care if fault is a problem solving vehicle or a jet to Paris, you shouldn't have to solve this problem yourself.  Assuming you're not doing anything wrong, the most you should have to do is speak to the DM.  Unfortunately, throughout the years, there have been some really rude GMs who have abused their power, so GMs now are afraid to put their feet down, even though they're the ones taking responsibility for the game.  

If I were DMing, I would bring a stopwatch to the game, then take an average of your rounds throughout a combat V the Dbag's rounds per combat.  Then afterwards, at a break, I'd take the Dbag into the hall and show him those averages, then ask him why he's being a Dbag. Likely, he was just messing with you and didn't realize it was getting to you. Unless the guy says it's jealousy, I doubt it.  If he's not taking the game seriously enough to pay attention, he's probably not that concerned about his power level.  But it was very nice of you to try to help him with his character.  If he's disruptive in general, I might ask him to avoid the caffeine (If I were DM), or ask him if he'd like to take more frequent breaks to alleviate boredom.  However, I would still inform him, nicely but firmly, that he had to lay off. That being said, if ribbing makes you nervous (and I'm not faulting you at all for that, I've played with a lot of shy people over the years) I might ask you yourself to lay off the caffeine, or ask if there's some way to make you more relaxed during the game.

Either way, it's not your fault at all.  If there is a problem, it is for the problem player and the DM to solve.

I think you need to listen to the episode.  Your heart is in the right place, but it's a new world out there.

You CAN think of the situation as not your fault.  but then there is nothing you can do but gripe.

And bringing a stopwatch is insulting and annoying.  It is annoying when people do it in manufacturing, it is insulting when people do it in a game.  Besides, it's not the issue.  If he were correct it might be the issue, it not being correct means you know what it is not. 

People are not willfully stupid, he is upset and thinks the reason is someone taking too long.  Likely he thinks the other guy has a better character or, well it could be lots of things.  Now you know where to look.  Confronting him might be the way to go, because you point it out and then ask him why he's upset.

Worth noting, I've troubleshot these things dozens of times.  And when people listen, they find out it works, or they find out it doesn't.  Do you know what happens when they don't try anything?

You guys are also thinking about kicking out a guy who you haven't even asked "what's wrong dude?" yet(unless I missed that part).
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Psychic Robot

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Re: It is Your Fault.
« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2009, 02:42:46 AM »
The stopwatch is used to demonstrate that the time taken between rounds is not nearly as severe as the one player thinks.  It is a logical solution.

Brainpiercing

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Re: It is Your Fault.
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2009, 01:29:33 PM »
I'd like to make clear that in my case kicking this guy is was never suggested by me, I only mentioned it, generally, as a counterpoint to Josh's general advice. As this group only has two core players, plus one new guy right now, this is simply not an option.
Game sessions also haven't been much of a problem, it's just really irksome to still get the same bitching now and then when I've put hours upon hours into optimising my gameflow.

I'm also not disputing the general point at all: I DO think I can do something about it, and I think I DID! But I believe there is a point where some people just ARE wilfully stupid, or mix up their gripes. I have to add, too, that there is nothing this guy CAN do about his real gripe, except play another character.

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Re: It is Your Fault.
« Reply #34 on: July 20, 2009, 10:11:12 PM »
The stopwatch is used to demonstrate that the time taken between rounds is not nearly as severe as the one player thinks.  It is a logical solution.

The stopwatch is used to show that someone is wrong - either the guy complaining or the guy who is being complained about is wrong. Having to walk away from a discussion wrong? Sucks. And making someone else feel sucky? Sucks.

Instead of trying to make someone walk away wrong, it's better to have everyone walk away good. (We could spend the rest of eternity debating what "good" actually means - it's not my intention to get into a definitions argument over that.) The guy who gets kicked out? Never walks away good.

Psychic Robot

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Re: It is Your Fault.
« Reply #35 on: July 20, 2009, 10:23:50 PM »
If I say that red is blue, I am wrong, and no amount of happy-go-lucky, feel-good advice is going to change the fact that one of us is right and the other is wrong. 

Lakira

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Re: It is Your Fault.
« Reply #36 on: July 20, 2009, 10:52:42 PM »
If I say that red is blue, I am wrong, and no amount of happy-go-lucky, feel-good advice is going to change the fact that one of us is right and the other is wrong. 

Sure. But let's say you're insisting that the cake in the middle of the table is blue when I know it's red. I'm willing to let you be wrong without proving it so long as we get to eat the cake.

Which is my way of saying that we could both pull out dueling analogies, and not prove anything.

Focusing on the stopwatch, since it's a real example, let me just note that Brainpiercing has said that there was an underlying problem behind the "you're taking too long" complaint, and that the stopwatch is a logical way of proving someone wrong, not making for a stress-free, good game. Nor does it allow everyone to walk away from the table good. So it's really not much of a solution, is it?

DerWille

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Re: It is Your Fault.
« Reply #37 on: July 20, 2009, 11:18:36 PM »
Physic Robot: I understand what you're saying about showing the other player is wrong but while logical, I don't believe it will work. Logical arguments typically fall flat on their face when someone is being irrational and emotional. The player in this case is acting out because he feels inferior (If I understand the situation correctly). The symptom of this is criticizing other players under the excuse of, "You take too long." By showing him that his words are not justified, he'll probably react by changing his excuse ("You summon too much", "Your wild shape is broken", "Can't you roll more dice at the same time?" etc) and growing indigent ("Everyone is ganging up on me!") and angrier. Lakira nailed it on the head, making someone else feel sucky, sucks.

 If this player does feel inferior, try to create a situation where he gets to be awesome. Not all the time, but let him have a chance to be the hero of the show with something only he can pull off (Even if he is a monk who thought picking up fiery fists and iron fists was an awesome idea). It might be a stretch and hard to do, but it would let him feel good.

Completely and totally unrelated note: Psychic Robot, your posts at the Gaming Den on 4e are amazing. I was reading them a few days ago and lost track of time. Before I had noticed, five hours had past and I still wasn't through them all.


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Re: It is Your Fault.
« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2009, 12:10:38 AM »
I do not care for reason behind most issues. Why? Because most of it I cannot resolve. As someone said earlier in the thread, a large number of RPers have below average social skills (honestly, I prefer it that way). Until last september, I had the social development of a 2nd grader and, due to various mental issues, I still and horribly underdeveloped. So, when I GM, I know that most of my problems are not possible for me to fix, simply because I lack the ability to understand/fix the problem. If it is my fault, I expect the others to speak up about it, not be immature about it. If it is not my fault, I tell the other player to handle it maturely or get out. If I have a problem, I will discuss it with them. Of course, it is slightly hypocritical for me to say this as if the other ignores the problem, I turn to passive aggressive tactics to get my revenge or simply kicking them out.
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Psychic Robot

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Re: It is Your Fault.
« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2009, 12:19:05 AM »
Regarding the stopwatch issue:

If the player is actually being a dick because his character can't do as much damage as another guy's, then he still needs to be called on being a dick.  If you work to make his character more powerful, you're treating the symptom, not the problem.  The actual solution to the problem is to get him to change his mindset of "I have to be more powerful than the other players."

D&D is not a competition.  If he feels that he needs to contribute more in combat, fine.  But if he's upset that (and being a passive-aggressive jerk because) he's not doing as much damage as the druid, then he needs to have his attitude readjusted.