Author Topic: Samurai Poll  (Read 68096 times)

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JaronK

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Re: Samurai Poll
« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2009, 09:27:52 PM »
Binders need Charisma (for their abilities), Con (their abilities and hitpoints), Str (for melee forms) and Dex (same).  Swordsages have a very good use for Strength, Dex, Con, and Wis.  Bards need Dex, Int, Cha, and Con.  All three are nicely balanced classes.  One could make a similar argument for the Warblade, though his need for Int isn't really that high.

JaronK

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Re: Samurai Poll
« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2009, 09:29:00 PM »
We'll just have to wait and see what bhu does with the class abilities.

Prime32

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Re: Samurai Poll
« Reply #42 on: April 20, 2009, 09:58:45 PM »
Ooh! Ki Strike! Add Ki Strike!
(because you gotta have katanas which ignore hardness)
« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 10:29:23 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

DaveoftheRave

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Re: Samurai Poll
« Reply #43 on: April 21, 2009, 12:29:13 AM »
Quote
I realize they perhaps should have some supernatural powers otherwise they're just fighters.

I would only add supernatural powers at level 7+.

Fluffwise they're non-magical so they shouldn't get magical powers until they become superhuman.

Midnight_v

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Re: Samurai Poll
« Reply #44 on: April 21, 2009, 12:34:37 AM »
How many good MAD classes are there?
Fu. for the win. 1 out of 54 is poor odds.


Quote
I would only add supernatural powers at level 7+.

Fluffwise they're non-magical so they shouldn't get magical powers until they become superhuman.
Yeah. Yeah you're right. I agree with this whole heartedly.

Quote
Binders need Charisma (for their abilities), Con (their abilities and hitpoints), Str (for melee forms) and Dex (same).  Swordsages have a very good use for Strength, Dex, Con, and Wis.  Bards need Dex, Int, Cha, and Con.  All three are nicely balanced classes.  One could make a similar argument for the Warblade, though his need for Int isn't really that high.
Frankly this is what I said you can give people Either; Or options if you do it well... frankly what he's listed are a group of examples that are good because people can DO things to make them not made ala "ignoring some aspect of the class" or, "replacing use of an ability for another.
Further SSages generally are not mad they use Wis/Dex mostly... or they're part warblade and many times they can live without con because they do things like Teleport and turn invisible at will any number of times per day. -M

Binders are good but they are allowed to ignore their ability scores as well. They dont' HAVE to have charisma to be some kind of "Binding Melee" buffer monster.
A few of thier binds actually have +4 to X stat as one of the 4 abilities. So they reduce Mad by ... ignoring the weak stat. Essentially making them not mad.

Barring having the abilitiy to rework stats at will Solo is correct.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 12:46:47 AM by Midnight_v »
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JaronK

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Re: Samurai Poll
« Reply #45 on: April 21, 2009, 01:15:52 AM »
They still lose a good bit if they dump charisma, as many strong abilities they have are charisma based.  It's not like a Monk's "if you don't have these, you die" thing, but binders are still a charisma class.  I also would never take a Swordsage into a fight without a reasonable con, if I could at all avoid it.  They can go down very fast, and remember that it's tough for them to teleport out and then refresh that teleport.  Without Dex, Wis, and Con they're extremely fragile which is very dangerous at levels where a few hits can knock you out.  They can dodge strength, but doing so generally requires Shadow Blade and Weapon Finesse, which is hard for an already feat hungry class.

I mean, let's face it, other traditional MAD classes can also dodge their MAD with feats and such if they really want.  Paladins can take Serenity, Monks can dip Swordsage and take Shadow Blade/Weapon Finesse, etc.  That doesn't mean their MAD doesn't exist, only that they can dodge it by paying something else (usually feats).

The point is, it's quite possible to make a class that makes strong use of a good number of stats and still have it be balanced.  You just have to count that as a weakness of the class and have appropriate strengths to deal with it.  For example, you could have a Samurai that needs Str, Con, and Charisma, while still having good use of Dex (for initiative, reflex saves, etc), and have a balanced warrior... assuming his abilities are generally good to make up for the lower main stats.  And sure, you could just dump charisma on a Samurai who has a bunch of Charisma based abilities, just as you could for Binders... it's not a great plan most of the time, but you could do it.

JaronK

Midnight_v

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Re: Samurai Poll
« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2009, 01:54:31 AM »
Uh huh... Anyone else care to weigh in here?

Begin rant:
Quote
They still lose a good bit if they dump charisma, as many strong abilities they have are charisma based
Maybe but not if my role is "fighter" and my class is binder. In that case  really you dont' give a damn about the charisma really. Depanding on various things.
Non the less. Mad is "Generally Speaking" a bad thing. There maybe a few instances where thats not the case but the vast majority of the time its fucking over a class.
Moreover does any one else see this as making a druid argument. Binder to a lesser degree.
His original statement was somthing like "you can make a class that has mad and is good by giving it good class abilities"
read: Druid. Okay so if you've figured out a class that has a build in power that oviates the need for mad then you may as well not have the mad at all, Jaronk.
Without wild shape and an animal companion druid would be made. Great argument I suppose, still though you've gone and done what I proposed. Made a class that make made irrelavant. Thats not taking feats thats just the situation...
Quote
"Lets face facts" ....
Yes lets Making a class with Multiple Attribute dependance is generally a bad thing OVERWHELMINGLY SO. So while they're maybe a few example of a class that obviates it own made we should level with that from the begining.
Hell give it two paths, but give those using Str/Chr(con) eqivalent and Parallel to those using Dex/Wis Go Samurai.
Though really it'd be just as well to make it a Chr replaces things class Ala iujustu master.
Charisma to this, charisma to that + some fear powers. Since really these guys are getting by on rep a lot of the times anyway "Oh fuck a samurai!" is kinda what goes down.
So there are options many options to be considered without saying
"Here be Mad. (but heres 3d6 + character level damage to all your attacks every other round so don't worry about it) which is to say... you're not Mad anymore.
bah.

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JaronK

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Re: Samurai Poll
« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2009, 02:51:47 AM »
If your role is "Fighter" and your class is "Binder" you've made yourself a lot weaker by ignoring a ton of your useful abilities and losing a lot of flexibility.  Are you really claiming that Binder isn't a charisma based class?  That's kind of like saying you can dump Str and Con as a Swordsage if your role is Scout.  Sure, but you've just lost all combat abilities.  I mean heck, a Monk can dump con, and str and be a scout too.  If MAD doesn't count when you can dump a bunch of abilities to avoid it, then there's no such thing as MAD anyway.  I mean really, what class has MAD under that logic?  A Paladin can tank just fine without Wisdom, as long as he ignores his casting ability.  He can be a charger with only Strength and Con too.  Of course, other classes are better at that, but then again other classes are better than Binders at being fighters without charisma.

Meanwhile, why do you bring up Druid as a class with MAD?  Druids are one of the most SAD classes out there.  Wisdom is great, con is useful, and that's all you need, due to Wild Shape.  Without Wild Shape, they wouldn't need Dex or Str anyway since they wouldn't be a combat class, so that's sort of moot.

The point is, if you make a Samurai character that's effective with Strength and Con, but gets a bunch of other abilities if he uses Charisma, and can make good use of Dexterity too, you just have to balance him taking into account the MAD issue.  That's all there is to it.

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Midnight_v

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Re: Samurai Poll
« Reply #48 on: April 21, 2009, 03:31:24 AM »
Quote
The point is, if you make a Samurai character that's effective with Strength and Con, but gets a bunch of other abilities if he uses Charisma, and can make good use of Dexterity too, you just have to balance him taking into account the MAD issue.  That's all there is to it.
Bullshit. No offense but... bullshit. Anytime someont makes a statment and ends it with an absolutist statement, people... suspect bullshit.
Lets look at the argument as you present it with binder instead.
"if you make a Binder character that's effective with Strength and Con, but gets a bunch of other abilities if he uses Charisma, and can make good use of Dexterity too, you just have to balance him taking into account the MAD issue."
What then...?
Quote
you've made yourself a lot weaker by ignoring a ton of your useful abilities and losing a lot of flexibility
And no..even at that, even with my statment that's not all there is to it.

Point being either you make a class with Sad, or you make the class with Mad and as I said from the begining a path to choose Either way he's going to miss out on something if you don't calculate in that there'll be "X" types of Samurai out there...
Though... I am familiar with the way you dig your feet in about these things. So having stated my point and you stating yours I'll wait till a 3rd party weighs in, no point it delving into childishness "Nuh-uh" "Uh-huh"
won't get us anywhere.
Mad on the table then. Discuss.
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JaronK

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Re: Samurai Poll
« Reply #49 on: April 21, 2009, 04:03:46 AM »
Um, what's the problem?  A Binder can indeed  be effective with Strength and Con, but he does get other abilities if he uses Charisma, and can make good Dexterity too.  Also, he's got MAD issues doing that, but he is indeed balanced.

What are you trying to argue here?  That Binders don't make good use of all four stats?  That Binders aren't balanced?  That it doesn't count as MAD because it's theoretically possible to dump Charisma and Dex, despite the fact that it limits your options?  What are you saying?  Seriously Midnight, I don't understand your point here at all.  You seem to be implying that your quoted portion about binders is in some way false, but I don't see how it is.  And I would in fact use the Binder as an excellent example of exactly how it can be done.

As I understand it, you're arguing that MAD is always a bad thing no matter what and can't be used as a balancing factor in making a class... is that correct?  If so, why doesn't the Binder, as well as the Swordsage or possibly the Rogue (depending on the power level you consider "balanced) count as a counterexample?  Only one is needed to contradict an "always" statement.

JaronK

« Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 04:06:37 AM by JaronK »

Solo

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Re: Samurai Poll
« Reply #50 on: April 21, 2009, 04:11:34 AM »
Hey, can you give the Samurai concentration as a class skill, and allow for easy entry into the Kensai PrC?

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Midnight_v

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Re: Samurai Poll
« Reply #51 on: April 21, 2009, 04:53:08 AM »
Quote
Seriously Midnight, I don't understand your point here at all.

Its okay Jaronk. It's not worth it. Lets just move on.


Quote
Hey, can you give the Samurai concentration as a class skill, and allow for easy entry into the Kensai PrC?
I agree with this. Seems a natural fit anyway now that I think about it.
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Bozwevial

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Re: Samurai Poll
« Reply #52 on: April 21, 2009, 04:55:49 AM »
Just in case we decide to take a Warblade dip for some Diamond Mind?  ;)

bhu

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Re: Samurai Poll
« Reply #53 on: April 21, 2009, 11:24:15 AM »
Concentration is  a class skill already :D

Wow this really took off again...

bhu

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Re: Samurai Poll
« Reply #54 on: April 26, 2009, 08:12:00 AM »
just a peek to let you know Im still working:

SAMURAI


   


 The Samurai is a warrior noble who is supposed to accept the concept that his only purpose in life is dying in service to his Lord, or for his own honor.  To accept that keeping to the ideals of honor are more important than his own life or happiness.  There are many who only pay lip service to this ideal, as in any other profession in life.  They make things difficult for those who do follow the Way. 

You will be expected to be both a powerful warrior, and an accomplished poet or artisan.  You will be expected to lead men into battle, and in turn be led by your Lord who may ask you to give your life whenever he pleases.  And if your Lord is an evil and dishonorable man, following his orders to your death is still preferable in the eyes of some to disobeying him and bringing dishonor to yourself.  But an evil Lord will eventually put you in the position that leads to your being dishonored regardless of what you do.  At that point you may end your life, or become a Ronin.  The life of a Ronin will be hard.  Your old master may want you dead, your friends and relatives may disown you for the stigma of your dishonor, and finding a new Lord will be next to impossible.  Since the only marketable skill you know is killing, you will likely have to become a mercenary or assassin for money. 

Welcome to Hell.

MAKING A SAMURAI
 Quick generalization of what you should focus on when making the class.
 Abilities: Since the Samurai is a warrior, your physical stats are expected to be good.  As a Noble your mental stats will be expected to be good.  Earlier Samurai are horse archers and will need Dexterity.  Later Samurai who are expected to be warrior-poets will need Wisdom and Charisma to deal with other members of the Nobility.  Many of your Ki Pool abilities will be based on your mental stats as well.
 RacesAlignment: Samurai are required to be Lawful.  Most are Lawful Neutral, particularly if they follow the Code of Bushido.  Lawful Good Samurai are less common, and many end up becoming Ronin, unable to reconcile their duties to their Lord with what they believe to be right.  Lawful Evil Samurai are monsters, murdering anything in their path, and manipulating the system to protect themselves.
 Starting Gold: Same as a Fighter.
 Starting Age: Same as a Fighter.

Class Skills
 The Samurai's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Geography, History, Local, Nobility & Royalty)(Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skills Per Day at 1st Level : (4 + int)x4
Skills Per Day at Each Additional Level : 4 + int

Hit Dice: d10

Code: [Select]
[b]   BAB  Fort    Ref    Will  Abilities[/b]
1. +1    +2     +0     +2   
2. +2    +3     +0     +3   
3. +3    +3     +1     +3   
4. +4    +4     +1     +4   
5. +5    +4     +1     +4   
6. +6    +5     +2     +5   
7. +7    +5     +2     +5   
8. +8    +6     +2     +6   
9. +9    +6     +3     +6   
10.+10   +7     +3     +7   
11.+11   +7     +3     +7   
12.+12   +8     +4     +8   
13.+13   +8     +4     +8   
14.+14   +9     +4     +9   
15.+15   +9     +5     +9   
16.+16   +10     +5     +10   
17.+17   +10     +5     +10   
18.+18   +11     +6     +11   
19.+19   +11     +6     +11   
20.+20   +12     +6     +12   

Weapon Proficiencies: Samurai are proficient in all Simple and Martial Weapons, and one Exotic Weapon (please see Oriental Adventures for stats of oriental simple/martial/exotic weapons).  They are proficient with all armor, and light and heavy shields, but not tower shields. 
 


PLAYING A SAMURAI
 Brief description on how to play the class you are designing.
 ReligionOther ClassesCombatAdvancementSAMURAI IN THE WORLD
Daily LifeNotables: Make up some cool information about notable figures in the history of your class. It's best to give a little information from one of the good alignment and evil alignment (unless it's a good or evil only class).
 Organizations: The Samurai are members of the middle and upper classes, and richer ones own large farms or command armies for the government.  All Samurai belong to a military organization of one clan or another.  By taking the Leadership Feat and doing well in battle a PC could open his own swordsmanship school, or be promoted to General someday.

NPC Reaction SAMURAI IN THE GAMEAdaptationEncountersEPIC SAMURAI

Hit Die: d10
Skills Points at Each  Level : 4 + int
Class Ability
Class Ability
Bonus Feats: The Epic Samurai gains a Bonus Feat every x levels higher than 20th

Flay Crimsonwind

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Re: Samurai Poll
« Reply #55 on: April 27, 2009, 03:29:02 AM »
Looks damn good, and I like that (it appears) you know what the hell you're talking about, historically-speaking. What's the blurp at the beginning taken from? It sounds familiar, but if you made it up, all the more kudos.  :)

bhu

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Re: Samurai Poll
« Reply #56 on: April 27, 2009, 04:13:44 AM »
I googled Smaurai quotes for both quotes  :blush

bhu

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Re: Samurai Poll
« Reply #57 on: May 10, 2009, 01:57:08 PM »
I keep forgetting to post this.  Before there are any freakouts, relax, everything you want ability wise will be in here somwhere

SAMURAI


   


 The Samurai is a warrior noble who is supposed to accept the concept that his only purpose in life is dying in service to his Lord, or for his own honor.  To accept that keeping to the ideals of honor are more important than his own life or happiness.  There are many who only pay lip service to this ideal, as in any other profession in life.  They make things difficult for those who do follow the Way. 

You will be expected to be both a powerful warrior, and an accomplished poet or artisan.  You will be expected to lead men into battle, and in turn be led by your Lord who may ask you to give your life whenever he pleases.  And if your Lord is an evil and dishonorable man, following his orders to your death is still preferable in the eyes of some to disobeying him and bringing dishonor to yourself.  But an evil Lord will eventually put you in the position that leads to your being dishonored regardless of what you do.  At that point you may end your life, or become a Ronin.  The life of a Ronin will be hard.  Your old master may want you dead, your friends and relatives may disown you for the stigma of your dishonor, and finding a new Lord will be next to impossible.  Since the only marketable skill you know is killing, you will likely have to become a mercenary or assassin for money. 

Welcome to Hell.

MAKING A SAMURAI Abilities: Since the Samurai is a warrior, your physical stats are expected to be good.  As a Noble your mental stats will be expected to be good.  Earlier Samurai are horse archers and will need Dexterity.  Later Samurai who are expected to be warrior-poets will need Wisdom and Charisma to deal with other members of the Nobility.  Many of your Ki Pool abilities will be based on your mental stats as well.
 RacesAlignment: Samurai are required to be Lawful.  Most are Lawful Neutral, particularly if they follow the Code of Bushido.  Lawful Good Samurai are less common, and many end up becoming Ronin, unable to reconcile their duties to their Lord with what they believe to be right.  Lawful Evil Samurai are monsters, murdering anything in their path, and manipulating the system to protect themselves.
 Starting Gold: Same as a Fighter.
 Starting Age: Same as a Fighter.

Class Skills
 The Samurai's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Geography, History, Local, Nobility & Royalty)(Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skills Per Day at 1st Level : (4 + int)x4
Skills Per Day at Each Additional Level : 4 + int

Hit Dice: d10

Code: [Select]
[b]   BAB  Fort    Ref    Will  Abilities[/b]
1. +1    +2     +0     +2    Military Training, Ki Pool
2. +2    +3     +0     +3    Iron Will
3. +3    +3     +1     +3    Imposing Presence
4. +4    +4     +1     +4    Military Training
5. +5    +4     +1     +4    Iron Will
6. +6    +5     +2     +5    Imposing Presence
7. +7    +5     +2     +5    Military Training
8. +8    +6     +2     +6    Iron Will
9. +9    +6     +3     +6    Imposing Presence
10.+10   +7     +3     +7    Military Training
11.+11   +7     +3     +7    Iron Will
12.+12   +8     +4     +8    Imposing Presence
13.+13   +8     +4     +8    Military Training
14.+14   +9     +4     +9    Iron Will
15.+15   +9     +5     +9    Imposing Presence
16.+16   +10     +5     +10   Military Training
17.+17   +10     +5     +10    Iron Will
18.+18   +11     +6     +11    Imposing Presence
19.+19   +11     +6     +11    Military Training
20.+20   +12     +6     +12   Daimyo

Weapon Proficiencies: Samurai are proficient in all Simple and Martial Weapons, and one Exotic Weapon (please see Oriental Adventures for stats of oriental simple/martial/exotic weapons).  They are proficient with all armor, and light and heavy shields, but not tower shields. 
 
Ki Pool (Su): At 1st level the Samurai first begins to learn to channel his Ki to perform acts he would be otherwise unable to do.  He may use his Ki a number of times per day equal to either his Charisma or Wisdom Modifier (whichever is greater) plus once more per  day for each level of Samurai he takes.

Military Training (Ex):

Iron Will (Ex):

Imposing Presence (Su):

Daimyo (Ex):

PLAYING A SAMURAI
 The Code of Bushido has 7 virtues: Rectitude (a Samurai is expected to conform to the law and rules for moral conduct, and uphold integrity and justice), Courage (he is expected to risk his life in battle when it is possible to achieve something of worth, even if it means his death), Benevolence (he is expected to show mercy), Respect (he is to treat others deserving of respect with such, particularly his lord), Honesty (he must not lie or be deceitful), Honor (he is expected to behave in a dignified manner), and Loyalty (he must do as his lord commands regardless of his personal feelings on the matter).  His honor and his loyalty to his Lord are supposed to mean more to him than his own life, or the lives of others.  In practice, any truly good or evil Samurai finds it difficult to live up to these ideals.  Good Samurai chafe at being given orders to commit evil acts just as much as evil samurai dislike being ordered to perform good acts.  Despite being sworn to a life of honesty, many have a pretty good Bluff skill.
 ReligionOther ClassesCombatAdvancementSAMURAI IN THE WORLD
Daily LifeNotables: Make up some cool information about notable figures in the history of your class. It's best to give a little information from one of the good alignment and evil alignment (unless it's a good or evil only class).
 Organizations: The Samurai are members of the middle and upper classes, and richer ones own large farms or command armies for the government.  All Samurai belong to a military organization of one clan or another.  By taking the Leadership Feat and doing well in battle a PC could open his own swordsmanship school, or be promoted to General someday.

NPC Reaction SAMURAI IN THE GAMEAdaptationEncountersEPIC SAMURAI

Hit Die: d10
Skills Points at Each  Level : 4 + int
Ki Pool The Epic Samurai gains 1 additional daily use of his Ki Pool for every Epic Level.  He does not gain new Ki abilities except as Epic Feats.
Bonus Feats: The Epic Samurai gains a Bonus Feat every 3 levels higher than 20th

« Last Edit: May 11, 2009, 01:32:39 AM by bhu »

Solo

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Re: Samurai Poll
« Reply #58 on: May 10, 2009, 07:21:26 PM »
Quote
Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system!
« Last Edit: May 10, 2009, 07:22:59 PM by Solo »

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bhu

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Re: Samurai Poll
« Reply #59 on: May 12, 2009, 10:57:28 AM »
Okay the theme here is that at the first 3 levels you gain your first class abilities, which will usually be a set you can choose from.  At each level thereafter you gain Feats or Ki Pool abilities based on what you chose.

SOund okay?