Author Topic: The Paladin is the most OP class and the Figher is > the Wizard. (3.5)  (Read 11780 times)

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BowenSilverclaw

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Re: The Paladin is the most OP class and the Figher is > the Wizard. (3.5)
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2009, 01:25:29 PM »
Seriously, just walk.
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woodenbandman

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Re: The Paladin is the most OP class and the Figher is > the Wizard. (3.5)
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2009, 01:39:31 PM »
I have a DM that's been playing since 1e, but he never moved on to 3e, because it's too unbalanced. I can totally see what he means by that. He doesn't like it when people min/max the SHIT out of their characters (me) but he also is good enough at DMitude to account for that, and he also hates when people don't roleplay (me) but he's mature enough to accept that some people just suck at it. And that's  a great way to encourage roleplaying, really. If the whole group is having fun with their RP, and they don't dump on the person who doesn't RP, the person who doesn't RP will be encouraged by noticing that the other members are having fun.

I guess this means that your DM is kind of a dick. He's not accomodating the story for the players, just MOST of the players. He's throwing challenges to players who agree with him and fucking over those who don't. You should kill their characters and keep doing so until they roll up wizards. Maybe that'll force the DM to bring some challenges magic can solve. It's good for him.


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Re: The Paladin is the most OP class and the Figher is > the Wizard. (3.5)
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2009, 01:59:54 PM »
voting with you feet is probably the best choice if you can. ie walk away from the game.

If that isn't possible ask the DM about why he feels the need to make your character useless by making everything immune to just you.  If he complains that you deal too much damage the ask to rebuild or make a new one so you won't deal as much damage, then go BF control or buff the hell out of the others so they can be the ones dealing damage.  If that doesn't interest you the try to find something that will, but keep in mind until the DM changes his mind set any time you get effective he will change the rules to beat you down. I have played under this type of DM and it took manipulating them to get anything done, i would get all my stuff setup by asking the questions separately then put it all together and rock out until they changed the rules again.
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Re: The Paladin is the most OP class and the Figher is > the Wizard. (3.5)
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2009, 04:38:09 PM »
voting with you feet is probably the best choice if you can. ie walk away from the game.

If that isn't possible ask the DM about why he feels the need to make your character useless by making everything immune to just you.  If he complains that you deal too much damage the ask to rebuild or make a new one so you won't deal as much damage, then go BF control or buff the hell out of the others so they can be the ones dealing damage. 

Are you implying that the wizard is not balanced against the other classes, citizen? Such an event is impossible, because core is perfectly balanced; if anything the wizard is weaker than the fighter.

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Re: The Paladin is the most OP class and the Figher is > the Wizard. (3.5)
« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2009, 04:39:41 PM »
Are you implying that the wizard is not balanced against the other classes, citizen? Such an event is impossible, because core is perfectly balanced; if anything the wizard is weaker than the fighter.
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BowenSilverclaw

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Re: The Paladin is the most OP class and the Figher is > the Wizard. (3.5)
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2009, 04:40:37 PM »
Are you implying that the wizard is not balanced against the other classes, citizen? Such an event is impossible, because core is perfectly balanced; if anything the wizard is weaker than the fighter.
Indeed, comrade. All praise Friend Computer, dispenser of oxygen and cake.
The cake is a lie!


(sorry, I had to :P)
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veekie

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Re: The Paladin is the most OP class and the Figher is > the Wizard. (3.5)
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2009, 05:21:23 PM »
Are you implying that the wizard is not balanced against the other classes, citizen? Such an event is impossible, because core is perfectly balanced; if anything the wizard is weaker than the fighter.
Indeed, comrade. All praise Friend Computer, dispenser of oxygen and cake.
The cake is a lie!


(sorry, I had to :P)
Let there be pie!

Anyway, unless you've gone and barred transmutation/conjuration, a change in casting tactics is in order. Switch to battlefield control, and by the point he pulls AMF items out, retreat a bit, and watch the TPK happen.
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Solo

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Re: The Paladin is the most OP class and the Figher is > the Wizard. (3.5)
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2009, 08:44:30 PM »
How do the melee characters manage to beat CR appropriate encounters if they don't have access to magic items?

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

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Re: The Paladin is the most OP class and the Figher is > the Wizard. (3.5)
« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2009, 09:11:16 PM »
The DM has taken to putting in mobs that are "immune to spells" or are wearing "specially designed necklaces or headbands of spell resistance, that only fit them.)
Worst DM trick EVER!

If he's doing shit like that... there's going to be a problem no matter what you do. There are no "immunity to magic items" really but yeah the anti-magic items come out next.
There are only a few spells that ignore an anti-magic field? (anyone have a list?)
Lots of things ignore spell reistance though.
Hmm... no... I'm sorry. You're dealing with a person problem, basically he's cheating to make his argument true.

If he's going to do things like that. Its time to start looking for a new game.
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Re: The Paladin is the most OP class and the Figher is > the Wizard. (3.5)
« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2009, 11:34:37 PM »
He tells me he has been playing since 1st edition

Then he's even denser than I thought, because you'd think he'd have caught on by now.

Quote
and there essentially was noone who optimized in 1st and 2nd edition

... :bs

You had to optimize. Otherwise, you died. Even if you optimized, you probably died. A lot.

Quote
and that he hates how 4E is "All combat and no roleplay". He stresses that my character is played too much like a "WoW Mage" and I constantly have to point out that Im an evoker and Im roleplaying perfectly.

Well, I'm no big fan of 4th edition, but the amount of roleplay is probably the fault of the DM and his group, isn't it? And, oh gods, here comes the comparison to a MMO again. It's like the D&D version of Godwin's Law: The longer a discussion on Dungeons and Dragons lasts, the more likely a comparison to World of Warcraft will arise.

...Or the fighter vs. wizard debate will arise. Either one. :P

Solo

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Re: The Paladin is the most OP class and the Figher is > the Wizard. (3.5)
« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2009, 03:20:33 AM »
If he thinks you play too much like a WoW mage, ask him what you should be doing.

Know thy enemy, after all.

Incidentally, how comes the melee types don't play like WoW fighters or anything?

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woodenbandman

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Re: The Paladin is the most OP class and the Figher is > the Wizard. (3.5)
« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2009, 11:39:38 AM »
2.0 required a lot of Optimization. I'm in ravenloft, and even with optimization, there's an occasional gaff where a party member punches an evil clock and kills me. So it's not really the best thing to be totally anti-optimization.

veekie

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Re: The Paladin is the most OP class and the Figher is > the Wizard. (3.5)
« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2009, 04:45:49 PM »
The DM has taken to putting in mobs that are "immune to spells" or are wearing "specially designed necklaces or headbands of spell resistance, that only fit them.)
Worst DM trick EVER!

If he's doing shit like that... there's going to be a problem no matter what you do. There are no "immunity to magic items" really but yeah the anti-magic items come out next.
There are only a few spells that ignore an anti-magic field? (anyone have a list?)
Lots of things ignore spell reistance though.
Hmm... no... I'm sorry. You're dealing with a person problem, basically he's cheating to make his argument true.

But see, if AMFs come into play, the fighters are just as fucked, especially if they are in close combat when it happens. A wizard has to get out of the radius and flee, that's all. Leave the party to be owned by the hack, if it's escalated to the extent I think it is, a few sessions of being battlefield control and then withholding control will leave his fights overpowerful for the meleers alone.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

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Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
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bihlbo

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Re: The Paladin is the most OP class and the Figher is > the Wizard. (3.5)
« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2009, 06:39:17 PM »
and there essentially was noone who optimized in 1st and 2nd edition

You had to optimize. Otherwise, you died. Even if you optimized, you probably died. A lot.

1st Edition Game
Rotten Old Man: "Great! I love 1st Edition! No optimizing means the game is pure!"
Scoffing Young Man: "Wow, I have two options after I choose my class and race. Fun. Hey, why do all the elf character sheets have the same stats?"
ROM: "Because you have to have stats laid out in a way that lets you qualify for the class."
SYM: "So I don't have the option to play a non-optimized character. Gotcha."
ROM: "Don't think about that stuff too hard, we're here to have fun!"

3rd Edition Game
SYM: "Great! I love 3.5! I can develop my character in so many ways!"
ROM: "Hmm. I think my fighter has spent most of his life studying to be a priest, wishing he could be a fighter."
SYM: "Uh, you need at least one of your physical scores to have a +1 modifier. Seriously."
ROM: "You're just trying to optimize everything! What if I want to have my stats reflect my character's personality huh? Don't you ever roleplay?"
SYM: "Don't think about that stuff too hard, we're here to have fun!"
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Re: The Paladin is the most OP class and the Figher is > the Wizard. (3.5)
« Reply #34 on: April 01, 2009, 04:40:33 AM »
Ok sorry for the long wait on reply's I'll try to answer all the questions I missed. Here goes:

Quote
Cast things on the environment and yourself then. Wall of Stone, Polymorph, etc. Evocation doesn't have a lot of good self and battlefield control spells, but there is always Wall of Force, Gust of Wind, etc. Blow them away.

Good idea man. I had thought of that, but at only third level spells Im barred a bit from what I can take (Im looking at YOU polymorph!).

Quote
Ignorance leads to Fear.
Fear leads to Anger.
Anger leads to Hate.

This is exactly the situation.

Quote
it took manipulating them to get anything done, i would get all my stuff setup by asking the questions separately then put it all together and rock out until they changed the rules again.

Thought of and put on back burner for later use if necessary.

Quote
because core is perfectly balanced


I don't remember if I put this in the original post or not, and Im too lazy to go look, but those words came out of his mouth.

Quote
Anyway, unless you've gone and barred transmutation/conjuration,

I'm not barred from all the good ones just necromancy and enchanting, and I have started using these when he started pulling out the "15 fire resist neckalce". Many a grease and glitterdust have been thrown around since then.

Quote
How do the melee characters manage to beat CR appropriate encounters if they don't have access to magic items?

The thing is, he gives the martial characters crazy powerful magic items but will not allow magic items shops in his world. For example, the level 2 cleric that was in our party got a +3 Mace of Smiting, and the level 4 ranger in our party got a +2 Bow of Favored enemy Bane that scales. The bow gains a +1 to each favored enemy he had previously when he gains a new one. When he gets a new FE it will be a +3 Bane against favored enemy number 1, +2 bane against favored enemy number 2, going up to a +4 v.s. #1 and +3 v.s. #2 when he gets his third.

I hope what I wrote just now was clear enough to understand. It's a little confusing.

All of them are tricked out in magic armor, with magic shields etc etc. The cleric had a retartedly high AC before he quit, something like a 27 AC at level 2.

I get...a ring of spell storing minor and a choker of +2 intellect that is not allowed to grant me bonus spells, but the fighter's choker of +2 strength can use his to get a +1 to attack rolls.

Quote
basically he's cheating to make his argument true.

That about sums it up.

Quote
Well, I'm no big fan of 4th edition, but the amount of roleplay is probably the fault of the DM and his group, isn't it? And, oh gods, here comes the comparison to a MMO again.

That's what I told him, roleplaying depends on the DM's and the player's ability to do it.

I hate it when he tells me I play like a WoW mage. He has the nerve to tell me that "I won't understand because I never played the older versions. No one under the age of 30 will really know what he means when he says everyone younger than that plays it like it's a video game."

Boy does that shit piss me off. I may be 20 years old, I may have never played the older versions of D&D, I may optimize my character until he is so good he breaks games and makes my team mates look pitiful, but I'll be damned if someone is going to stand there and tell me that because of my age I will not understand something. Clearly, I have a better grasp on this game than he does. Obviously, I know what the hell Im talking about, otherwise he wouldn't be making up rules to take me down a peg, and it is absolutely certain that his knowledge of a game that he's been playing for "collectively 90 years" pales by comparison to a kid who picked it up with a bud only 4 years ago. My god, things like that make me fucking steamy.  :flame

Quote
Incidentally, how comes the melee types don't play like WoW fighters or anything?

They do. There isn't a whole hell of a lot of difference other than the names of what they're doing and the roleplay they put behind it.

Quote
Leave the party to be owned by the hack, if it's escalated to the extent I think it is, a few sessions of being battlefield control and then withholding control will leave his fights overpowerful for the meleers alone.

It has escalated to that point and yes, had it not been for me, just two sessions ago, there would have been a TPK when the level 6 rogue, level 4 ranger and level 2 cleric encountered a Froghemoth.

Quote
Seriously, just walk.

Quote
voting with you feet is probably the best choice if you can. ie walk away from the game.

If it weren't for the fighter in the group, who actually understands the rules and the balance, or lack there of, with the core classes making his own campaign to run I would have already been gone.

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Re: The Paladin is the most OP class and the Figher is > the Wizard. (3.5)
« Reply #35 on: April 01, 2009, 04:47:54 AM »

Quote
If it weren't for the fighter in the group, who actually understands the rules and the balance, or lack there of, with the core classes making his own campaign to run I would have already been gone.

  So your staying because of the fighter? Some sort of mutual misery pact  :eh? Your a good friend lad, but there you have it. You can't do much with this GM and you can't/won't leave. Here's my suggestion. Buff your fighter buddy. Just him/her. Go crazy with it. You get satisfaction because you know your contributing directly, GM can't ban/nerf you doing that, and no one can say your WoWing your mage.

  Good luck!
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Gr1lledcheese

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Re: The Paladin is the most OP class and the Figher is > the Wizard. (3.5)
« Reply #36 on: April 01, 2009, 04:52:09 AM »
Quote
So your staying because of the fighter? Some sort of mutual misery pact  :eh? Your a good friend lad, but there you have it. You can't do much with this GM and you can't/won't leave. Here's my suggestion. Buff your fighter buddy. Just him/her. Go crazy with it. You get satisfaction because you know your contributing directly, GM can't ban/nerf you doing that, and no one can say your WoWing your mage.

  Good luck!

Im sticking around because in a few months, the fighter will be in the DM spot and the DM will be a player.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 11:31:32 PM by Gr1lledcheese »

veekie

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Re: The Paladin is the most OP class and the Figher is > the Wizard. (3.5)
« Reply #37 on: April 01, 2009, 08:47:35 AM »

Quote
If it weren't for the fighter in the group, who actually understands the rules and the balance, or lack there of, with the core classes making his own campaign to run I would have already been gone.

  So your staying because of the fighter? Some sort of mutual misery pact  :eh? Your a good friend lad, but there you have it. You can't do much with this GM and you can't/won't leave. Here's my suggestion. Buff your fighter buddy. Just him/her. Go crazy with it. You get satisfaction because you know your contributing directly, GM can't ban/nerf you doing that, and no one can say your WoWing your mage.

  Good luck!
I agree on this one, make your fighter buddy into a freaking God of War if thats the way things are working.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

archangel.arcanis

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Re: The Paladin is the most OP class and the Figher is > the Wizard. (3.5)
« Reply #38 on: April 01, 2009, 11:58:56 AM »
Well since your just trying to hold out until your friend starts the new game have fun with it.  When i was stuck in games with this kind of crap i would make a character with a stupidly over the top personality that way i had fun playing them no matter what class they were or how effective they were.  Perhaps ask to play a different character that isn't so WoW centric  :rollseyes . Maybe a Bard named Mari Achiband (stolen from another podcast talking about their game) and talk like you are from Mexico, or a buffer with high charisma named Jerry (Springer) and encourage people to work out their differences, a halfling that claims to be the mutant child of giants, ect...

Find something that has nothing to do with the rules and make it yours. That way no matter how much he changes the rules he can't change your character or how fun it is going to be for you.

If you want to be a bit of a dick see if you can play a changeling then fit all those custom items since you can change into that person  :lol
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Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

woodenbandman

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Re: The Paladin is the most OP class and the Figher is > the Wizard. (3.5)
« Reply #39 on: April 02, 2009, 12:17:56 PM »
Alternately, die and roll up a druid. Problem solved. You can still do all your wizard shenanigans (most of them, anyway) but your a gorram durid.