Author Topic: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs  (Read 76947 times)

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Suzerain

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #240 on: July 24, 2009, 01:29:12 PM »
Did we ever reach a consensus on serene guardian?  I'm thinking +1 tier.
That's what it's at atm. I guess I assumed that was the consensus *shrug*

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #241 on: July 24, 2009, 01:34:34 PM »
Didn't see it in the list, that's all.
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Suzerain

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #242 on: July 24, 2009, 01:56:45 PM »
Yeah, um... that's because sonofzeal's not been updating the first post. I could open another one if you guys are for that? Or we could ask a mod to edit the post.

tusk

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #243 on: July 24, 2009, 03:20:26 PM »
There's also the lesser drow. But I'd put Darkmask no higher than +0. You have to be drow and have to spend 2 feats and unless you somehow get move silently as a class skill, you can't meet the prereqs before level 9. You'd also spend 32 skill points (8 hide, 12 move silently, 8 sleight of hand, 4 survival) on the prereqs, 20 with able learner. How many skill points does the cleric get every level again? This is not for clerics. (Wilderness) Rogue 1/Cleric 4 or (Savage) Bard 1/Cleric 4 could do this, but the loss of a caster level isn't worth it. My suspicion is that it's a low -1 for cleric, archivist, or anything that isn't a Divine Bard (the latter could be a low +0, I guess).

Sounds fine.

Skymage: What? It does take 3 feats to enter, but it gives 5 feats back: Craft Wand, Spell Focus, Skill Focus, 'Flying Feat' (Flyby Attack) and Enlarge Spell. It also gives the benefit of the Collegiate Wizard feat for those five levels to Wizards, and free scrolls otherwise. Not to forget the mount. AND it is full casting. This is +1.

Thanks for getting the ball rolling, though.

What Wizard in his right mind would want Enlarge Spell? Wands are sub-par anyways. Good point on bonus scroll. You could've make reality your B*tch, and you decide to be a bomber.

lans

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #244 on: July 24, 2009, 04:17:04 PM »
If the skylord gives full casting and doesn't require multiclassing to get the prereqs then I don't see how it could possibly be lower than 0 with a primary caster entry.
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Suzerain

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #245 on: July 24, 2009, 04:25:52 PM »
What Wizard in his right mind would want Enlarge Spell? Wands are sub-par anyways. Good point on bonus scroll. You could've make reality your B*tch, and you decide to be a bomber.
Yeah, but still, you get 8 feats for an investment of 4 ;)

Also, what lans said. The primary redeeming feature of the class is still its mount, after all. I think it's +0 to +1 depending on the mount employed (or +2 if it's used with something like the Efreeti).

tusk

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #246 on: July 24, 2009, 05:25:31 PM »
With game balance in mind, I can see it a border-line +1,if you factor in cheese like Pit Fiend, A strong +1 maybe.

Suzerain

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #247 on: July 25, 2009, 05:18:57 PM »
Alright guys, I've decided to open a new thread so I can keep updating the first posts, and also to bring some more info to the table. I think I'm going to reserve 4 posts; 1 as index, 1 listing prcs by tier (with book abbreviations), 1 listing prcs by book (with tier) and one just in case. If you want any of the format changed (including links or the like), tell me now, before I start reserving posts. I'll turn to recent feedback and stuff later. I'm attaching the most up-to-date version of the spreadsheet.

Here's my preliminary layout:

1. [index]
Explanation, listing of (un)incorporated books, links to the sub-threads, ...

2. [by tier] (like before, kinda), sample:
Up Two Tiers
[spoiler]
Anarchic InitiateCPsi
Anima MageToM
Champion of GwynharwyfBoED
Disciple of DispaterBoVD
DreadmasterF&P
DweomerkeeperCD
Emissaries of BarachielBoED
Halruuan ElderShS
Hulking HurlerCW
IncantatrixPGtF
Initiate of the Sevenfold VeilCA
Legendary Captain (if naval combat is required)Stormwrack
Moonspeaker (non-Druid entry)RoE
Planar ShepherdFoE
Rainbow Servant (Warmage entry)CD
Runescarred BerserkerUE
Sacred Exorcist (non-Cleric entry)CD
Sentinel of BharraiBoED
Shadowcraft MageRoS
Soul EaterBoVD
SoulbowCPsi
Sublime ChordCA
Tainted ScholarHoH
Telflammar ShadowlordUE
Thrall of JuiblexBoVD
ThrallherdXPH
Ur-PriestCD
Void DiscipleCD
Walker in the WasteSandstorm
War HulkMini
Warshaper (non-casting entry)CW
[/spoiler]

3. [by book] sample:
Book of Exalted Deeds
[spoiler]
Champion of Gwynharwyf+2
Emissaries of Barachiel+2
Sentinel of Bharrai+2
Anointed Knight+1
Beloved of Valarian+1
Celestial Mystic+1
Defender of Sealtiel+1
Fist of Raziel +1
Lion of Talisid+1
Prophet of Erathaol +1
Risen Martyr+1
Slayer of Domiel+1
Vassal of Bahamut+1
Sword of Righteousness+0
Apostle of Peace (w/o VoP)-1
Exalted Arcanist-1
Initiate of Pistis Sophia-1
Skylord-1
Stalker of Kharash-1
Swanmay -1
Troubadour of Stars-1
Apostle of Peace-2
Wonderworker -2
[/spoiler]

So... what do you think?
« Last Edit: July 25, 2009, 05:22:15 PM by Suzerain »

tusk

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #248 on: July 25, 2009, 06:19:45 PM »
I like sorting by books better.

Suzerain

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #249 on: July 25, 2009, 06:28:08 PM »
I like sorting by books better.
I'm doing both ;) Just asking whether you have any suggestions on changes.

I'm thinking of sorting the by-tier list instead of alphabetically by-book instead. If that makes sense. I'll come back later and edit some sense into it if not :P

I also have the idea of sorting by book-groups. You know, when people tell you "we're doing a dragon-heavy campaign and I've got core plus the dragon books" or just "core+completes", it'd be a lot easier to find the different prcs available. Instead of having a dedicated spoiler for each book-group, I could also just group the 'by book' list into different groups. If you want to find a specific book, you'd need to use ctrl+f, though...

So this is primarily a question of design. Any suggestions are welcome (though I'm not guaranteeing implementation of any; some things I've tried even break the character count limit).

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #250 on: July 25, 2009, 06:46:17 PM »
Might also be useful to have an excel file... dunno how practical that is, though.
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Zarothar

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #251 on: July 25, 2009, 07:47:38 PM »
Yikes, Flayerspawn Psychic is still in Tier +0? How?!  :twitch

Suzerain

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #252 on: July 25, 2009, 10:57:00 PM »
Yikes, Flayerspawn Psychic is still in Tier +0? How?!  :twitch
Search this thread. Samb was the one defending it iirc.

Samb

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #253 on: July 25, 2009, 11:31:28 PM »
I pointed out why I felt it was break ever, but I think that the majority should rule.  I only played with one flayerspawn psychic and he was really really good (ate a lot of brains, took up illithid savant and then became Illensciense).

I have only seen one in action so I took up that perspective but if anyone has acautally played one, I weigh their opinion more.

Zarothar

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #254 on: July 26, 2009, 02:23:53 AM »
How is it superior to a straight-classed Psion or PsyWar, though?

Illithid feats are considered "Psionic" feats, so they're counted under the Psion/PsyWar bonus feat lists. You get 4 of these Illithid feats as bonus feats; in exchange, you give up 4 ML.

So, for a PsyWar, it's straight up a bad trade. You lose BAB and ML, while the only thing you gain in return is a better Mind Blast that can be used 6 times a day. A PsyWar 20 would effectively have the same number of bonus feats as a PsyWar 10/FP 10, but would be able to choose them more freely.  :D

For a Psion, then... Are two bonus feats, a slightly bigger hit die, and an improved Mind Blast worth 4 ML? I suppose it could be a matter of opinion. I'm not sure if it's ever a particularly good tradeoff, but YMMV.

Also, how on earth did you take Illithid Savant? :P Flayerspawn Psychic does not turn you into a Mind Flayer...  :twitch

Samb

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #255 on: July 26, 2009, 06:01:11 AM »
How is it superior to a straight-classed Psion or PsyWar, though?

Illithid feats are considered "Psionic" feats, so they're counted under the Psion/PsyWar bonus feat lists. You get 4 of these Illithid feats as bonus feats; in exchange, you give up 4 ML.

So, for a PsyWar, it's straight up a bad trade. You lose BAB and ML, while the only thing you gain in return is a better Mind Blast that can be used 6 times a day. A PsyWar 20 would effectively have the same number of bonus feats as a PsyWar 10/FP 10, but would be able to choose them more freely.  :D

For a Psion, then... Are two bonus feats, a slightly bigger hit die, and an improved Mind Blast worth 4 ML? I suppose it could be a matter of opinion. I'm not sure if it's ever a particularly good tradeoff, but YMMV.

Also, how on earth did you take Illithid Savant? :P Flayerspawn Psychic does not turn you into a Mind Flayer...  :twitch
Well after you blast someone your BAB doesn't really matter since you will be eating their brains while they are stunned.  So to say "only a better a mind blast" is underestimating how nice a mass stun really is.  The fact that it scales with HD and not ML makes the lose in ML less noticeable.  By taking practiced manifester you can still research powers as if you didn't lose ML, only thing you will really lose are the PP.

Psywar entry? Unlikely since you need to be able to manifest psionic charm making a telepath the reasonable choice.  Of coarse, you could a psywar could take EK for it or Illi legacy.  That seems to be a lot of work for a PrC that would not be great for it.  So for psywar, it would be -1 or -2 but I don't even factor them in since they are not the intuitive choice to enter.  

Well that player was a bit of a munchkin but he was so entertaining that the DM allowed it, then promoted him into a god later to get rid of him.  All he did was blast 1-2 times a fight and we clean up (stun DC=28-30 with all his CHR gear at level 16).  Never really had to use his powers unless something was immune to mind affecting.  He actually picked and used the anti undead spells found in CPsi for that very reason.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2009, 06:11:14 AM by Samb »

Samb

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #256 on: July 26, 2009, 06:13:35 AM »
I would nominate Cognition Thief for +2 since you can use it as a dip to get schism, mindlink (preq for the great thrallherd) or take it all the way for the game breaking psy chiurguery.

Suzerain

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #257 on: July 26, 2009, 09:32:45 AM »
For the sake of thread continuity, the new thread is here: Tier System for PrCs.

I will catch up with anything that might have happened in the meantime at a later date.

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #258 on: August 26, 2009, 03:39:10 PM »
edit: realized it's in a new thread...

Endarire

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #259 on: February 11, 2010, 07:22:25 PM »
Incantatrix is especially powerful by itself if you boost your Spellcraft into high, high numbers.  Remember, taking 10 out of combat lets you buff your party.
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Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"