Author Topic: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs (Read 77029 times)

Suzerain · « **Reply #220 on:** July 21, 2009, 11:54:13 PM »

Ok people, this is the new version of the spreadsheet. Please inform me about any mistakes in the spreadsheet.

Changes:

Up One:
Cognition Thief (Ardent or Wilder) +1 (was +0)
Dragonstalker (Dragon heavy game) +1

Even:
Cognition Thief (other entry) -1 (was +0)
Dracolyte +0
Dragonrider +0
Dragonslayer (Dragon heavy game, except as 1 lvl dip) +0
Dragonsong lyrist +0
Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries +0
Justice of Weald and Woe +0 (was -1)
Platinum Knight (Dragon heavy game) +0

Down One:
Dragonkith -1
Dragonslayer -1
Dragonstalker -1
Hoardstealer -1
Platinum Knight -1

Down Two:
Talon of Tiamat -2

Added another view (view2) purely for convenience of Gr1lledcheese, on a whim.

We're missing evaluations for these PrCs:

Shadowmind (CAdv)

Seeker of the Song (CA)

Crimson Scourge (Cityscape)
Ebonmar Infiltrator (Cityscape)

Updated
Non-setting books needed: Complete Champion, Dragon Magic, Dungeonscape, Ghostwalk and Weapons of Legacy.

Eberron books needed: Dragonmarked, Faiths of Eberron, Magic of Eberron, Player's Guide to Eberron, Secrets of Sarlona, Secrets of Xen'drik, Sharn: City of Towers

Faerun books left: Lords of Darkness, Power of Faerun

And I'm asking for everyone to chip in and comment on the evaluation of Fiendish Codex II (or the Draconomicon, or any other you think is off); we need final scores for this.

edit: Added Eberron and Faerun books still missing. Might have missed some.

Endarire · « **Reply #221 on:** July 21, 2009, 11:56:27 PM »

Surely someone has something to add!

Suzerain · « **Reply #222 on:** July 22, 2009, 12:21:11 AM »

Something I've been thinking about:

Son of Zeal put Apostle of Peace in the -2 "broken" bin (like the truenamer as a base class). We have, however, several duplicate entries dealing with ruling differences (the one that comes to mind is where DMs think AMF penetrates the Iot7fV's veils

), so why not add the Apostle of Peace in proper? I suggest one entry for removal of VoP as a prereq, and possibly a third that works as a way partially alleviate the restrictions of VoP.

E.g.
Apostle of Peace (use protective items despite VoP) +2
Apostle of Peace (VoP requirement dropped) +1
Apostle of Peace -1

I have no idea what the entry for the class is, however, and I didn't look hard at the spell list, either. The above are ballpark figures. What do you think? Rate the AoP!

Endarire · « **Reply #223 on:** July 22, 2009, 01:30:50 AM »

Apostle of Peace (use protective items despite VoP) -1
Apostle of Peace (VoP requirement dropped) -1

You get L9 spells in 9 or 10 levels, but you must be good. Even if you can wear your protective gear, an Ur-Priest has more options because it's easier to be evil than exalted, and Urs can start at L6 instead of L8. (This is further evidence that evil wins D&D.)

Also, your vows hamper you. Vow of Poverty, even if partially lifted, pales in comparison to good ol' loot in most cases. Vow of Peace forces even your own party to save or stop fighting. This aura is ALWAYS on! VoPeace also prevents you from killing or aiding the killing of anything 'alive,' and the Apostle of Peace is similar to the Healer base class with higher prereqs.

I'd rather sell my character's soul that have to go through all this BS. At least in doing so I can, y'know, gain power!

The Apostle of Peace is an interesting idea, but it's potentially as party-hostile as a Frenzied Berserker. At least the FB can kill the enemies instead of of the AoP sapping his party members' will to fight while the foes rip apart your party like target dummies.

Echoes · « **Reply #224 on:** July 22, 2009, 01:50:05 AM »

Quote from: Endarire on July 22, 2009, 01:30:50 AM

Apostle of Peace (use protective items despite VoP) -1
Apostle of Peace (VoP requirement dropped) -1

You get L9 spells in 9 or 10 levels, but you must be good. Even if you can wear your protective gear, an Ur-Priest has more options because it's easier to be evil than exalted, and Urs can start at L6 instead of L8. (This is further evidence that evil wins D&D.)

Also, your vows hamper you. Vow of Poverty, even if partially lifted, pales in comparison to good ol' loot in most cases. Vow of Peace forces even your own party to save or stop fighting. This aura is ALWAYS on! VoPeace also prevents you from killing or aiding the killing of anything 'alive,' and the Apostle of Peace is similar to the Healer base class with higher prereqs.

I'd rather sell my character's soul that have to go through all this BS. At least in doing so I can, y'know, gain power!

The Apostle of Peace is an interesting idea, but it's potentially as party-hostile as a Frenzied Berserker. At least the FB can kill the enemies instead of of the AoP sapping his party members' will to fight while the foes rip apart your party like target dummies.

Depending on how loosely one reads Grey Guard's 10th-level ability, it conceivably can be applied to the various Vows. Which makes Apostle of Peace turn into Chuck Norris, as he runs around curbstomping people while their weapons break against his skin, all in the name of his Church.

Optimator · « **Reply #225 on:** July 22, 2009, 02:48:33 AM »

I was under the impression that the VoP requirement was a typo.

Endarire · « **Reply #226 on:** July 22, 2009, 05:22:51 AM »

What's Gray Guard do?

Paradox · « **Reply #227 on:** July 22, 2009, 06:29:39 AM »

Quote from: Endarire on July 22, 2009, 05:22:51 AM

What's Gray Guard do?

Lets your paladin do more gray moral crap (represented by less cost for atonement ending in not needing atonement) plus later ability to smite anyone in exchange for 5 caster levels. Also lets you do more stuff with your lay on hands.

Echoes · « **Reply #228 on:** July 22, 2009, 04:27:50 PM »

Quote from: Endarire on July 22, 2009, 05:22:51 AM

What's Gray Guard do?

Their 10th-level ability allows them to violate their oaths in the name of their Church. The wording is kind of iffy both on the requirements for the PrC and the ability, and it can be read to apply to the vows. If so, it makes Apostle of Peace viable (although still worse than an Ur-Priest).

The_Mad_Linguist · « **Reply #229 on:** July 22, 2009, 05:46:17 PM »

Quote from: Echoes on July 22, 2009, 04:27:50 PM

Quote from: Endarire on July 22, 2009, 05:22:51 AM
What's Gray Guard do?

Their 10th-level ability allows them to violate their oaths in the name of their Church. The wording is kind of iffy both on the requirements for the PrC and the ability, and it can be read to apply to the vows. If so, it makes Apostle of Peace viable (although still worse than an Ur-Priest).

Basically, you become an Apostle of Peace through Superior Firepower

And I'm not really that sure about master of the unseen hand being down two tiers, since it seems that the logical entry is either ghost or anyone with a ring of telekinesis.

Havok4 · « **Reply #230 on:** July 22, 2009, 06:30:53 PM »

I think it is considered down two tiers due to the logical entry being a caster and it has no caster level progression.

Suzerain · « **Reply #231 on:** July 22, 2009, 07:25:29 PM »

Quote from: Surreal on April 01, 2009, 03:57:58 PM

Discussion on Complete Warrior:
Master of the Unseen Hand is +0 if you have telekinesis as a SLA/Su (such as by being a ghost)
Mindspy is +0 if you have detect thoughts as a SLA/Su (such as via Cabinet Trickster or Exorcist of the Silver Flame).

Can you agree on that? If so, I'll adjust.

Also, caster entry for Mindspy -2, too?

edit: Actually, I'm not seeing mindspy worth the investment almost no matter what. I put it at -2 locally.

I also put the shadowmind at -1; it's exchanging 3ML for 3d6 SA and 1/day read thoughts, 1/day cloud mind, 1/day mass cloud mind, and those three powers as powers known. Cloud mind is available to just about any list, read thoughts is one EK, and the free manifesting of those powers 1/day isn't worth the drop in pp.

Paradox · « **Reply #232 on:** July 23, 2009, 06:07:57 AM »

I'd like to contest Ebon Saint.
It's Dire Augs are strickly better than the lurk entry's augmentations, it even gives you a no restrictions alter form, which would make this a +0 or +1.

tusk · « **Reply #233 on:** July 24, 2009, 03:19:37 AM »

Man, good to see this thread resurface

Some......real-life distraction can be responsible for this exile...... Anyway, this is my attempt at Lords of Darkness:

Spur Lord: Require Leadership (and 3 mediocre feats)to enter, looks delicious for Black Guard/Paladin of Oppression. Once per day, Charisma +4 for (Cha mod+2) rounds. Nothing else catches attention. Probably a weak +1. (That's not taking the account on the fact that if you take Leadership, you win DnD

)

Dark Mask: You have to be a (half)Drow to enter. Full casting. 1/day delivers a touch-range Divine spell at 3rd. Get +4 against illusion At 4th. 5 rounds/day of Backbite against slashing/piercing weapons. +0.

Thayan Knight: You get to be the personal b*tch of the Red Wizards. [sacrasm]Wooooohoooooo![/sacrasm]. Very easy entry. Logical entry seems be fighter. Underwhelming features. -1.

Zentarim Skymage: 3Totally useless entry feat. You get a flying mount with HD no greater than your Class Level + Cha mod + 1. Bonus feat related to flying. Spell focus at 3rd. -2.

Negative Zero · « **Reply #234 on:** July 24, 2009, 03:22:04 AM »

Quote from: tusk on July 24, 2009, 03:19:37 AM

Zentarim Skymage: 3Totally useless entry feat. You get a flying mount with HD no greater than your Class Level + Cha mod + 1. Bonus feat related to flying. Spell focus at 3rd. -2.

The thing about the Skymage is that it doesn't have a restricted list to choose from, for the mounts. Sufficient Cha, and you can have a Pit Fiend for a mount.

Paradox · « **Reply #235 on:** July 24, 2009, 03:34:17 AM »

Quote from: tusk on July 24, 2009, 03:19:37 AM

Dark Mask: You have to be a (half)Drow to enter. Full casting. 1/day delivers a touch-range Divine spell at 3rd. Get +4 against illusion At 4th. 5 rounds/day of Backbite against slashing/piercing weapons. +0.

Get more than a straight cleric, and though this limits your chosen race, half-elves aren't bad. This is +1

tusk · « **Reply #236 on:** July 24, 2009, 03:35:54 AM »

Yes, it's a open-ended list, and I'm sure with enough cheese, a wizard can get a Pit Fiend as a mount at the time it's relevant. I guess it's a good alternative when your DM outright banned Planar Binding(and similar cheese). But consider 3 dump entry feats for a already feat-starved Wizard......That does not look pretty at all huh?

Well, for Sorcerers this might be Better......

Quote from: Paradox on July 24, 2009, 03:34:17 AM

Get more than a straight cleric, and though this limits your chosen race, half-elves aren't bad. This is +1

This is DROW we are dealing with, dear

. You do have a point there, I was sitting on the fence myself.

Paradox · « **Reply #237 on:** July 24, 2009, 10:36:42 AM »

And? LA buyoff makes this not bad.

Suzerain · « **Reply #238 on:** July 24, 2009, 01:17:54 PM »

There's also the lesser drow. But I'd put Darkmask no higher than +0. You have to be drow and have to spend 2 feats and unless you somehow get move silently as a class skill, you can't meet the prereqs before level 9. You'd also spend 32 skill points (8 hide, 12 move silently, 8 sleight of hand, 4 survival) on the prereqs, 20 with able learner. How many skill points does the cleric get every level again? This is not for clerics. (Wilderness) Rogue 1/Cleric 4 or (Savage) Bard 1/Cleric 4 could do this, but the loss of a caster level isn't worth it. My suspicion is that it's a low -1 for cleric, archivist, or anything that isn't a Divine Bard (the latter could be a low +0, I guess).

Agreed on Thayan Knight (which is identical to the one in Complete Warrior).

Spur Lord: Yeah, sounds about right.

Skymage: What? It does take 3 feats to enter, but it gives 5 feats back: Craft Wand, Spell Focus, Skill Focus, 'Flying Feat' (Flyby Attack) and Enlarge Spell. It also gives the benefit of the Collegiate Wizard feat for those five levels to Wizards, and free scrolls otherwise. Not to forget the mount. AND it is full casting. This is +1.

Thanks for getting the ball rolling, though.

The_Mad_Linguist · « **Reply #239 on:** July 24, 2009, 01:23:14 PM »

Did we ever reach a consensus on serene guardian? I'm thinking +1 tier.

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Author Topic: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs (Read 77029 times)