Author Topic: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs  (Read 76954 times)

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Surreal

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #180 on: April 27, 2009, 01:51:20 AM »
A suggestion on the spreadsheet: instead of separating the tiers out in a visual format, write it out in data form...

name|book|tier

It will be much easier to sort and work with in that format (and make calculations as well). The immediate visual is a bit more daunting since it will be a super long list, but it's easier to create reading lists from data rather than go the other way round.
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Some Handy Links for CO Work (WotC 339 version) - a compilation of links for base/prestige class handbooks, tactics, spellcasting, character builds, D&D databases, etc.
Archived version of the above with working links

The Mango Index - a giant index for all things D&D and where to find them
The Mango List Reborn! - rehosted by KellKheraptis

Lists of Stuff - listing of class features etc and how to get them, etc. sort of like above but a little more specific and sorted by category
Polymorph, Wildshape and Shapechange, oh my! (comparison charts) - side-by-side comparison of all the various form altering abilities
Alternative Class Features
alternative ways to get class skills

sonofzeal

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #181 on: April 27, 2009, 06:15:49 AM »
Since the "Complete" series is so big and so PrC-heavy, would it be worth splitting "Gen1" (Warrior, Arcane, Divine, Adventurer, Psionic) from "Gen2" (Champion, Mage, Scoundrel)?  Or even just sort it by book?

Suzerain

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #182 on: April 27, 2009, 10:30:22 AM »
Since the "Complete" series is so big and so PrC-heavy, would it be worth splitting "Gen1" (Warrior, Arcane, Divine, Adventurer, Psionic) from "Gen2" (Champion, Mage, Scoundrel)?  Or even just sort it by book?
Yes, I thought about that. But then I didn't know which ones are "Gen2". So I simply put them in one place. If splitting them in half reduces the column considerably, that's definitely a possibility. Individual books... I don't know.

@Surreal: I thought about doing this for the html+js thing. The idea didn't strike me when I made the spreadsheet, though. Seems much easier to handle, I agree. However, putting the books in (as opposed to book-groups) will be a hassle.

tusk

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #183 on: April 27, 2009, 11:03:08 AM »
  Maybe put all those data in a fully sortable html page!! Here's some key words: Sort by alphabetical order, by the PrCs' logical entries(or other entries worth noting), Sourcebooks(maybe page #s), and of course, their ranks. Of course, this noble initiative is best suited to people with some HTML-fu. Now, I wanna see raised hands. :D :D :D :D

  The sortable area ideally would be as simple as possible. Then what if something worth more elaborate noting pops up, what then? Hyper-link those to a addendum which can be as long as you want it to be(a chanllenger appears for Longcat!!11)
« Last Edit: April 27, 2009, 11:09:34 AM by tusk »

Suzerain

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #184 on: April 27, 2009, 11:35:47 AM »
Maybe put all those data in a fully sortable html page!! Here's some key words: Sort by alphabetical order, by the PrCs' logical entries(or other entries worth noting), Sourcebooks(maybe page #s), and of course, their ranks. Of course, this noble initiative is best suited to people with some HTML-fu. Now, I wanna see raised hands. :D :D :D :D
Too much time on their hands is more like it.

Btw. I have updated the spreadsheet files in the post they first appeared in.

Quick Changelog:
- removed sui generis / baseclass-like since it was vague and personal anyways
- renamed some book groups, added/bracketed books
- added "Data View" (Surreal's suggestion). Took me all of 15 minutes :P

Now, will someone tell me where those drop-down sort-thingies are in OpenOffice/Excel? To more easily sort them. I mean, I use Data > Sort... but I have to select the data each time. I've seen this done, I've even done this myself with Excel a few years ago, but I totally forgot how to do it.

Surreal

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #185 on: April 27, 2009, 02:13:31 PM »
The drop down thingies are filters (from the "data" menu). I added those plus a datapilot at the bottom. (see attachment)
---
"The late, sedate, and no to great." ~Surreal

Some Handy Links for CO Work (WotC 339 version) - a compilation of links for base/prestige class handbooks, tactics, spellcasting, character builds, D&D databases, etc.
Archived version of the above with working links

The Mango Index - a giant index for all things D&D and where to find them
The Mango List Reborn! - rehosted by KellKheraptis

Lists of Stuff - listing of class features etc and how to get them, etc. sort of like above but a little more specific and sorted by category
Polymorph, Wildshape and Shapechange, oh my! (comparison charts) - side-by-side comparison of all the various form altering abilities
Alternative Class Features
alternative ways to get class skills

Suzerain

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #186 on: April 27, 2009, 02:41:13 PM »
Thanks Surreal, that's much nicer. Less items... is always good :)

So I confused "filters" with sorting. Huh. I guess there's no such thing as sorting "thingies" in spreadsheet program then. But this is a great improvement.

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #187 on: April 27, 2009, 03:11:46 PM »
Im so glad I let this see light again.

Okay, its kinda late here so if we have a spreadsheet of this (sonofzeal i assume has a copy) then we can easily group the sorted category (by book then tier, by tier with book citation) right?

By the way the spoilers on the first post were not working. It looks to me like we should make a "Tier System for PrC's II" thread and get down to business.

I'll go ahead and list all the books I have access to so we can start that 'what are we missing' list. Not all have PrCs:
Quote from: Because the Spoilers are messed up...
« Last Edit: April 27, 2009, 03:14:20 PM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

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It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
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sonofzeal

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #188 on: April 27, 2009, 04:43:49 PM »
Non-setting books not yet included (that may or may not actually have PrCs):


PlzBreakMyCampaign - I already did this, via the PrC page on Wikipedia that sorts by book.  Here's the (non-setting) ones it lists we haven't done yet, with ones you have in bold...

Cityscape, Complete Champion, Draconomicon, Dragon Magic, Dungeonscape, Fiendish Codex II, Ghostwalk, Heroes of Battle, Miniatures Handbook, Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde, and Weapons of Legacy.

They list setting-based books separately, so you'll have to check that yourself.

Suzerain

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #189 on: April 27, 2009, 06:53:49 PM »
Eberron is missing almost completely. We have the Campaign Setting, Races of Eberron and Planar Shepherd.

We need: Faiths of Eberron, Five Nations, Magic of Eberron, Secrets of ..., etc.

Zombieboots

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #190 on: April 28, 2009, 02:50:19 AM »
Repost. Are we accepting non-source book classes? From WotC web enhancement:
The Swiftblade, Haste Personified
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327

Standard, non-optimal entry is: Full BAB Class 1 / Wizard 5 or simply Elf 6th level Wiz or Sor.

Class includes: Only 6/10th Spell Casting, Full BAB, Two good saves, Built in Miss chance. The Cap stone(s) include extra standard action after a full attack, and semi to full Time Stop! Wow.
Free spring attack, Reflex & AC bonuses, and undispellable haste are icing.

I nominate this Gish for a full +2, it's certainly at lest a +1 without a doubt.
Ah! Maddness. Thank you.[spoiler][/spoiler]

sonofzeal

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #191 on: April 28, 2009, 03:10:03 AM »
Repost. Are we accepting non-source book classes? From WotC web enhancement:
The Swiftblade, Haste Personified
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327

Standard, non-optimal entry is: Full BAB Class 1 / Wizard 5 or simply Elf 6th level Wiz or Sor.

Class includes: Only 6/10th Spell Casting, Full BAB, Two good saves, Built in Miss chance. The Cap stone(s) include extra standard action after a full attack, and semi to full Time Stop! Wow.
Free spring attack, Reflex & AC bonuses, and undispellable haste are icing.

I nominate this Gish for a full +2, it's certainly at lest a +1 without a doubt.
Non-Source is fine, as long as it's "notable".  There's a lot of really obscure PrCs out there from Dragon Mag and Web Enhancement and similar sources, and I honestly wouldn't worry about those in general as they're generally the least likely to ever see play.  On the other hand, some things like Swiftblade have become popular enough to warrant including.  I'll leave it to your judgement in general.

Anyone else have an opinion on Swiftblade specifically?

Optimator

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #192 on: April 28, 2009, 03:46:32 AM »
It is between +1 and +2 IMO.  It certainly is fantastic in certain builds, but it seems a little too focused to be a true +2 class.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #193 on: April 28, 2009, 04:09:32 AM »
Non-Source is fine, as long as it's "notable".  There's a lot of really obscure PrCs out there from Dragon Mag and Web Enhancement and similar sources, and I honestly wouldn't worry about those in general as they're generally the least likely to ever see play. 
Really?  In my experience, the order of availability tends to be
Core+SRD -> WotC Web Stuff -> other WotC books - > dragon -> Third party stuff -> Mongoose Publishing. 

(with free third party stuff hovering around rank 3)

Mostly because everyone I play with is a cheapskate of some kind, and it's inconvenient to borrow the books from our friendly neighborhood gaming library.  That, and mongoose is just... broken.
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sonofzeal

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #194 on: April 28, 2009, 05:27:37 AM »
Really?  In my experience, the order of availability tends to be
Core+SRD -> WotC Web Stuff -> other WotC books - > dragon -> Third party stuff -> Mongoose Publishing. 

(with free third party stuff hovering around rank 3)

Mostly because everyone I play with is a cheapskate of some kind, and it's inconvenient to borrow the books from our friendly neighborhood gaming library.  That, and mongoose is just... broken.
Point.  Although I'd put BoEF above Dragon Mag on that hierarchy, even though it's 3rd party.  I'd actually consider including it, just for fun.

Thing about web stuff is that they're popular if they're known, but can disappear otherwise.  At least with the books, if you're looking for a melee PrC you can check through the index of CWar, ToB, or a few others; with web stuff, I have the suspicion there's way more up there than I've ever seen, and no good index that I know of.  Still, I'll leave it to the reviewer - if you know of something that you think other people might be interested in playing (and that's 3.5), rate it and I'll toss it in.  I'm not going to turn away good material just because it's web.

Suzerain

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #195 on: April 28, 2009, 03:40:09 PM »
I think along similar lines. If you check the spreadsheet, I actually put "SRD + Web" in as sources for the "Extended Core" category.

Abjurant Champion is +1. I think Swiftblade would be fine in that same tier, personally. I've never seen it in play, though.

Havok4

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #196 on: April 28, 2009, 06:55:17 PM »
I would like to see someone rate the Mind's Eye prestige classes. They can be found at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/psi.

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #197 on: April 29, 2009, 04:55:06 PM »
PlzBreakMyCampaign - I already did this, via the PrC page on Wikipedia that sorts by book.
You where the one who did this page?

You made a mistake #294 Dragon. It has the Windsinger PrC not the Nightsong Infliltrator

And by the way I have all the internet PrC's bookmarked so I might review them.
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r

sonofzeal

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #198 on: April 29, 2009, 07:23:49 PM »
You where the one who did this page?
Sorry - I didn't make that page.  What I meant was that I'd already gone through that page and compared it to the current list.  I've posted all the non-setting books that up there and not up here already.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #199 on: April 29, 2009, 08:24:28 PM »
Serene Guardian +2
It's much better than fighter, but more importantly the extremely general wording (and uncapped nature) of the "resonance" ability makes an alchemist-fire chucking rogue pretty awesome (splash damage woo!).  At third level it functions as half monk progression, so you get wis to AC as well as bonus feats.  Oh, and at eighth level?  No save, supernatural Confusion, provided you can hit a target more than once in a single round.  A pretty jawsome class.
BAB +6/Lawful alignments.
The only downside is the affiliation score prereq, but that's no biggie (and it's essentially flavor). 
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 08:43:44 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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