Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs

[sonofzeal]

Alright, I'll keep it where it is.

Should Defender of Sealtiel go down to join it, or do its miscellaneous other things push it over the line?

[Sinfire Titan]

Down Two or More Tiers.  These PrCs completely fail to do what they were trying to do, or makes heavy sacrifices for little to no gain.  Expect characters with these to be unplayable without heavy optimization effort, or some cunning trick.

Spinemeld Warrior

Have to disagree with you here. This is the LN version of a Totemist build. Skarn Monk 2/Totemist 9/Spinemeld Warrior 4/Warblade 3/Tigerclaw Master 2=Lots of attacks, and damage that rivals the Totem Rager. Granted, the Spinemeld Warrior doesn't progress soulmelds that well, but it is somewhat better than taking 15 levels in a worthless base class.

I still don't see it. You can't combine your spines with other weapons, you have an essentia cap in your spines that's no better (and sometimes worse) than what you would normally have as a standard meldshaper, and it forces you down a suboptimal feat path (TWF) and only marginally gives you the tools to increase your damage potential.

Plus it doesn't add very much to anything. A shifter with Rapidstrike would be far better (use claws as weapons and make iteratives). They can take normal 2 weapon rend, or just add some girallon windmill flesh rip to get more damage than this build. Straight Warblade 20 is stronger than this, by definition making this prestige class a -1 tier or more.

The same can be said of Totem Rager. Both PrCs actually improve the normal melee-damage you deal (Girallon Arms+Landshark Boots on a 20th level Totemist doesn't deal that much damage, but does better on either a Spinemeld Warrior build or a Totem Rager build).

In all truth, Multiclassing as a Totemist is a bad idea (unless you are not focusing on using Manticore Belt, their best soulmeld). You end up down a tier in terms of actual damage output (the Ranged Totemist can get upwards of 400 damage a round for a full minute or longer, the Totem Rager can get about 200 damage a round for the duration of his rages, the Spinemeld Warrior gets similar damage values to the Totem Rager).

I advocate it for melee Totemists only, as the Ranged Totemist only has one viable option to work with (and that's really the best option they have).

[sonofzeal]

Perhaps Spinemeld would fit best in the -1 category, as opposed to the -2?

[Operation Shoestring]

Woah... I didn't realize that before.  Manticore belt, by RAW, is Greater Manyshot, except better.  Sweet.

[Zarothar]

Perhaps Spinemeld would fit best in the -1 category, as opposed to the -2?

Maybe I'm missing something... But isn't it actually a fairly solid class for non-Incarnum entry? I mean, the requirements are dead easy, as long as you take a single Incarnum-granting feat. Surely it would qualify as +0 tier for a Tier 4 entry class (i.e. Fighter)?

[Brainpiercing]

Warrior of Darkness: +1 full BAB, uses vile medicines to boost his combat (roid rage!!!!).  With high enough CHR is can do some nasty stuff (full attack after moving/charging, +to any stat, +to movement etc, bonus feats). With the right combo this guy is pretty decent.

I want to comment on this: I think it CAN even be a +2, but really only in conjunction with the Cavalier PrC, and really late. The reason: I believe it allows mounted Pounce, if you build it right, by Lvl20. Of course it needs heavy gearing, you need enough Cha at a given level. Now this is obviously not such a small deal, because at a 6 or 7 multiplier to your damage that full attack will make a HUGE difference.
Why do I believe it allows mounted pounce: It says Move or Move-equivalent action. A mounted charge seems like a move equivalent action to me. You could also do a full attack after using your move action for something else, essentially it's a standard action FA, too. Of course it's only 3/day, but IMHO that's plenty when you're talking about thousands of points of damage.

I generally agree with the placement, but this could be kept in mind.

[Sinfire Titan]

Perhaps Spinemeld would fit best in the -1 category, as opposed to the -2?

That's if you use a pure Incarnum entry. If you are less worried about your Soulmelds, the then class is actually somewhat helpful. +0 for a Tier 4 entry (as all 10 levels gives you at least two useful tricks) as suggested by Zarothar (I heavily agree), -1 for partial Incarnum entry. -2 for Full Incarnum entry only.

Woah... I didn't realize that before.  Manticore belt, by RAW, is Greater Manyshot, except better.  Sweet.

If by better you mean "On Crack" then yes. If only there were a way to get the Totem Embodiment feature sooner (more uses/day can be obtained if Action Points are allowed).

[Operation Shoestring]

Perhaps Spinemeld would fit best in the -1 category, as opposed to the -2?

That's if you use a pure Incarnum entry. If you are less worried about your Soulmelds, the then class is actually somewhat helpful. +0 for a Tier 4 entry (as all 10 levels gives you at least two useful tricks) as suggested by Zarothar (I heavily agree), -1 for partial Incarnum entry. -2 for Full Incarnum entry only.

Woah... I didn't realize that before.  Manticore belt, by RAW, is Greater Manyshot, except better.  Sweet.

If by better you mean "On Crack" then yes. If only there were a way to get the Totem Embodiment feature sooner (more uses/day can be obtained if Action Points are allowed).

The problem, however, is that it's now a weapon, and can't be enchanted.  You need a few good sources of bonus damage.....

[woodenbandman]

How could the manticore belt's things not be weapons. Check out "weaponlike spells" from complete arcane, right before the feats section. Now check Soulmeld-Magic Transparency. Boom.

Weaponlike Spells are divided into "ranged" and "touch," and the "ranged" category includes things that require a ranged attack roll and/or a ranged touch attack roll. Examples of the former, being what we want, include Splinterbolt and Fire Shuriken. Now note that you can apply some of your combat related feats to your weaponlike spell. Technically this only qualifies for the ones listed in the book, but if this isn't proven by RAW, it sure as hell is one of the most logical houserules in the universe. Also note that you can apply spell boosts to your weaponlike spells (such as using Hunter's Eye to get sneak attack and deliver that sneak attack on a Scorching Ray, or by casting, Prayer, which applies to spell damage from weaponlike spells), and with the Soulmeld-Magic Transparency, this should work out just fine. The Soulmeld-Magic transparency states that

"Soulmelds interact with spells and spells interact with soulmelds in the same way that a spell or a normal spell-like ability interacts with another normal spell or spell-like ability (with a limited number of exceptions as noted below).

If Soulmelds interact with Spells, and Spells interact with Soulmelds in the same way that Spells interact with Spell-Like Abilities and in the same way that Spell-Like Abilities interact with spells, then Soulmelds interact with Spell-Like Abilities the same way that Spell-Like Abilities interact with Spells etc etc.

But also:
If spells interact with spells in a certain way, soulmelds interact with spells in that same way, and therefore can interact with each other in the way that spells interact with each other.

This means that a soulmeld can enhance another weaponlike soulmeld the same way that a spell could enhance another weaponlike spell. Hence, in the most convoluted way possible, I've (hopefully) proven that Sighting Gloves work with weaponlike soulmelds, which the Manticore Belt is.

[Operation Shoestring]

How could the manticore belt's things not be weapons. Check out "weaponlike spells" from complete arcane, right before the feats section. Now check Soulmeld-Magic Transparency. Boom.

Ah, that works for me.

Though it's even better if you can covince the DM that the M-belt is a natural weapon.... And grab an amulet of natural attacks.  ^___^

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Are we finished? We need averages for some of the books. Also, what books have yet to be rated? I'll help.

[jameswilliamogle]

Moi aussi.

Looks like a lot of the campaign specific books aren't rated. 

[Havok4]

Also the Mind's Eye and other online PrCs are not in the original post, although some have been discussed.

[sonofzeal]

Apologies for letting it slide so long, I've been pretty busy.  But we're not done yet! 

Campaign Setting books are fine, and there's been a few Faerun and Eberron books included already.  As long as it's 3.5, go for it!  We've even done a few adventure modules that include PrCs.

Non-setting books not yet included (that may or may not actually have PrCs): Cityscape, Complete Champion, Draconomicon, Dragon Magic, Dungeonscape, Fiendish Codex II, Ghostwalk, Heroes of Battle, Miniatures Handbook, Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde, and Weapons of Legacy.

Hopefully there'll be a new update later today.  There was some action on the GitP thread that I never got around to...

[sonofzeal]

Books
Lost Empires of Faerun - Tam_OConnor
Races of Eberron (ave: +0.625) - Salvonus
Serpent Kingdoms (ave: -0.06) - Tam_OConnor
Unapproachable East (ave: +0.417) - Tam_OConnor
Underdark (ave: +0.333) - Tam_OConnor


Up Two
Halruuan Elder
Moonspeaker (with Knowledge Devotion)
Runescarred Berserker
Telflammar Shadowlord


Up One
Acolyte of the Ego
Aglarondan Griffonrider
Arachnomancer
Atavist
Breachgnome
Cabinet Trickster
Cavelord
Drow Judicator
Elven High Mage
Illithid Body Tamer
Nentyar Hunter
Olin Gisir
Orc Warlord
Raumathari Battlemage
Recaster
Sea Mother Whip
Shadow Sentinal
Shining South
Shou Disciple
Warrior Skald
Quori Nightmare


Equal
Battlerager
Cultist of the Shattered Peak
Deep Diviner
Disciple of the Word
Fang of Sseth
Fiendbinder
Great Rift Deep Defender
Great Rift Skyguard
Hand of the Adama
Imaskari Vengeance Taker
Inquisitor of the Drowning Goddess
Jordain Vizier
Luiren Marchwarden
Magelord
Maquar Crusader
Master of Vipers
Nar Demonbinder
Prime Underdark Guide
Reachrunner
Reforged
Scourge Maiden
Serpent Slayer
Shadowcrafter
Spellcarved Soldier
Spellsinger
Spinemeld Warrior
Talontar Blightlord
Thayan Slaver
Vermin Keeper
Warsling Sniper


Down One
- Shadow Sentinal
Ancient Master
Coiled Cultist
Durthan
Glorious Servitor
Halruuan Magehand
Master of the Yuirwood
Naga Lord
Sunmaster
Yathchol Webrider


Down Two
- Spinemeld Warrior
Bereft
Brimstone Speaker

[Suzerain]

I know it'd be a huge hurdle, but...I can't help but notice how the index is growing huge and trying to find a specific class is a pain, so have you considered ordering it all into groups? Like "Complete-series", "Races-series", "Mastering the Hazards Of..."-series, "Faerun-books", "Eberron-books", etc.? That would make browsing the index a lot easier.

Also, the "up two, up one, even, etc." could all be in one spoiler tag for each group this way making opening it and searching for any given PrC easier. Of course, I understand completely if you feel it's too much work. Just a suggestion.

I've actually considered this. I didn't really think about the sheer scale of the project when I started, and I agree that a better system would have helped. That said, while I'd absolutely love to see it done, I have my hands full just making all the additions. If someone else (cough, cough) PM'd me a resorted list, I'd totally post it.

Well... *cough, cough* it's not exactly "post-ready", and adapted to my personal taste, but most of the work is done. I think I've caught all the PrCs in the posts, but I kicked out those with LA/HD races as prereqs. Don't think they fit in with PrCs of the same tier (i.e. they all belong to -2. No exceptions. Not even Beholder Mage or Illithid Savant).

[sonofzeal]

Excellent!

What's "Sui Generis" though?

[Suzerain]

It means "of its own kind" and I used it for Chameleon and Ur-Priest, since they gain abilities more akin to a base class, imho, with no "logical entry" that's not dependent on other PrC options (although Factotum+Chameleon seems nice enough).

I thought about singling out other fast-progression classes as well, but I didn't look at any of them yet. Some of them may have logical entries (Sublime Chord being a Bard PrC). Told ya it was personalized

edit: "Sui generis" is often used when you can't put something definitively into one category or another. It's basically like saying "this thing's weird".

[sonofzeal]

The other thing is, due to the size of the lists, I was considering moving to a new thread so that I could split it across several posts.  We're getting pretty close to the end though, should I save it for then?  Were you planning on continuing to update this?

[Suzerain]

I was planning to update it as long as people would post evaluations of PrCs.

As for posting, I don't know, it could fit into one post. I also have a html+js solution in mind that would work well because you could pick which sources/tiers you want displayed. But that would require a little more effort than I'm currently willing to put into it, so it'd have to wait a week or so.

Anyway, I think both Tier > Source and Source > Tier make sense. I.e. one spoiler for each source, with different tiers inside and one spoiler for each tier with different sources inside. Again, effort intensive.