Author Topic: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs  (Read 76950 times)

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sonofzeal

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #140 on: April 05, 2009, 01:33:04 AM »
....with this big an update, I may have misplaced something or copy-pasted wrongly.  If you see something out of place that doesn't look intentional, let me know.


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Planar Handbook - tusk (ave: +0.0)
Player's Guide to Faerun - Tam_OConnor (ave: -0.1)



Up Two
Anima Mage
Disciple of Amodeus
Disciple of Disapater
* Incantrix (already listed)
* Shadowcraft Mage (already listed)
Soul Eater
Thrall of Juiblex


Up One
- Anima Mage
- Psion Uncarnate
- Shadowcraft Mage
Abjurant Champion
Blade Bravo
Cancer Mage (except with festering rage)
Celestial Mystic
Chaotician
Cragtop Archer
Deepwarden
Diabolist
Disciple of Baalzebul
Disciple of Mephistopheles
Disciple of the Eye
Divine Prankster
Dragon Devotee (for non-casters)
Earth Dreamer
Elemental Warrior
Eye of Horus-Re
Fatemaker (worse for bards)
Hammer of Moradin
Hathran
Holy Scourge
Justicar of Tyr
Loredelver
Lyric Thaumaturge
Master Specialist
Menacing Brute
Mortal Hunter
Nightmare Spinner
Runesmith
Scion of Dantalion
Singer of Concordance
Spellfire Hierophant
Stoneblessed
Thayan Gladiator
Thrall of Demogoron
Triadic Knight
Pale Master
Unseen Seer
Urban Soul
Vengeance Knight
Warrior of Darkness
Wild Soul


Equal
- Scion of Dantalion
Arcane Devotee
Ardent Dilettant
Astral Dancer
Black Blood Hunter
Champions of Valor
Cipher Adept
Disciple of Mammon
Divine Champion
Divine Disciple
Divine Seeker
Dracolexi
Eldritch Disciple
Eldritch Theurge
Goliath Liberator
Knight of the Weave
Maiden of Pain
Moonsea Skysentinel
Morninglord of Lathander
Netherese Arcanist
Peregrine Runner
Psion Uncarnate
Purple Dragon Knight
Runecaster
Scar Enforcer
Shaaryan Hunter
Shade Hunter
Shadow Adept
Shadow Thief of Amn
Stonedeath Assassin
Stonespeaker Guardian
Thrall of Orcus
Ultimate Magus (except with fast entry tricks)
Zhentarim Spy


Down One
- Celestial Mystic
- Wonderworker
Black Blood Cultist
Celebrant of Sharess
Cognition Thief
Enlightened Spirit
Evereskan Tomb Guardian
Death's Chosen
Demonlogist
Dragonheart Mage
Doomguard
Harper Agent
Harper Paragon
Justice of Weald and Woe
Martyred Champion of Ilmater
Master of Radiance
Master of Shrounds
Monk of the Long Death
Nightmask Deathbringer
Outcast Champion
Sacred Purifier
Shadow Sentinel
Slime Lord
Spellguard of Silverymoon
Thrall of Graz'zt
Troubadour of Stars
Vermin Lord
Visionary Seeker



Down Two
- Troubadour of Stars
Defiant
Dirgesinger
Lifedrinker
True Necromancer
Wonderworker
Yathrinshee

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #141 on: April 05, 2009, 10:47:02 AM »
Last of ToM:

Acolyte of the Ego +1
Obvious entry is a Truenamer, and the self-buffs possible here make that annoying truespeach DC not as big of an issue.  8 levels will give really nice stat boosts, breath weapon, or a number of other effects.  Other classes can get in with Truespeech Training and a few languages, but in general it won't be worth the heavy investment.

Bereft -2
Again, Truenamer entry, but the difference here is that you have to target an enemy DC for the class abilities to work.  Combine that with the fact that the stronger abilities all require saves, and its a lose-lose situation.

Brimstone Speaker -2
Cleric w/ Truespeach Training is the obvious entry.  You gain a breath attack, and gain the ability to summon outsiders using a truespeach check a limited number of times per day, and lose a level of spellcasting every time you can summon a better outsider.  Uhm...  how is that better than a straight Cleric???  Just cast Dragon Breath and Planar Ally spells :P.  There's a core-only PrC just for that sort of thing.

Disciple of the Word +0
A Monk at L6 is the obvious entry, but not the only one (consider a Monk 2 / full BAB 2 or even a Monk 2 / Binder 4).  The class fully stacks w/ Monk for unarmed strike, AC, and speed, which is pretty good.  Essentially, it adds several abilities (some of which are pretty great) that need a stunning fist usage and a truespeach check.  It would get +1, since it adds a lot of nice effects to a straight monk, but in the end you trade investment in truespeach (and Int, usually a dump stat) and non-combat monk abilities for some other effects, and except for 2 in particular (dispel when you hit, DR bypass including Epic DR) the abilities aren't that strong.  The problem is that the DCs to activate those class abilities is pretty high, so you need feat and items to invest to make them happen.

Fiendbinder +0
Wizard is the only entry worth mentioning.  I have never, ever seen how its worth taking this class instead of Malconvoker or such.  That said, it doesn't really lose that much compared to a straight Wizard.  Planar Binding spells can gain many of the same benefits of this class, but it costs cash.  It also loses 3 spellcasting levels :P.  Its not worth it, imo, but it does gain an ability to become immune to HP damage for a temporary amount of time, which might be useful in some niche builds.




Tshern

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #142 on: April 07, 2009, 07:33:57 AM »
What entry exactly makes Sentinel of Bharrai a +2 tier PrC?

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sonofzeal

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #143 on: April 08, 2009, 02:52:34 AM »
What entry exactly makes Sentinel of Bharrai a +2 tier PrC?
Wizard.  That said, that particular ranking has been questioned a few times, and I'm open to moving it down.  It's definitely not "Planar Sheppard" good... but it's pretty close to "Soulbow" good, IMO, in that it won't break the game wide open, but it's a seriously heavy upgrade that pushes the bounds of +1.

Surreal

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #144 on: April 08, 2009, 03:08:08 AM »
It's also a great PrC for warlocks. I would say this straddles the line between +1 and +2, even considering that you have to burn two feats to get in. It has a lot of versatility in that it doesn't require any specific casting to qualify, but it advances full casting of any type.
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The Mango List Reborn! - rehosted by KellKheraptis

Lists of Stuff - listing of class features etc and how to get them, etc. sort of like above but a little more specific and sorted by category
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sonofzeal

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #145 on: April 08, 2009, 04:22:47 PM »
I'm thinking of bumping Dwarven Defender up to +1.  I mean, it gets some hate, but the class still gets d12 HD, two good saves (and the two best good saves), a healthy AC bonus that stacks with everything, decent DR (as far as D&D DR is ever decent), and uncanny dodge. And Defensive Stance is still useful any time the Battlefield is at all Controlled, or when you're indoors, or in a dungeon, or on a bridge, or can anticipate a dangerous attack and could use a temporary boost to AC or saves. Also, it's a swift action to assume it and a free action to leave it, so you're not exactly trapped in the spot if the situation changes.  Seems like +1 territory to me.

Brainpiercing

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #146 on: April 08, 2009, 05:09:57 PM »
I'm thinking of bumping Dwarven Defender up to +1.  I mean, it gets some hate, but the class still gets d12 HD, two good saves (and the two best good saves), a healthy AC bonus that stacks with everything, decent DR (as far as D&D DR is ever decent), and uncanny dodge. And Defensive Stance is still useful any time the Battlefield is at all Controlled, or when you're indoors, or in a dungeon, or on a bridge, or can anticipate a dangerous attack and could use a temporary boost to AC or saves. Also, it's a swift action to assume it and a free action to leave it, so you're not exactly trapped in the spot if the situation changes.  Seems like +1 territory to me.

Duh, it's also a class that for some reason appeals to idiots.... There was a player in our groups who ALWAYS played an S&B Dwarfen Defender. Sure he was usually the last man  standing, but in doing so he just gave up ALL his offensive power. Well, I may be biased, but to me this class doesn't add enough good stuff to warrant what you lose: Class features that will make the other guys end up dead.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #147 on: April 08, 2009, 05:40:45 PM »
Well, I may be biased, but to me this class doesn't add enough good stuff to warrant what you lose: Class features that will make the other guys end up dead.
Yeah, but if you entered it as a vanilla fighter (which is probably the most common entry), you didn't have those anyway, and it probably does make you a tiny bit better at being a living wall, which was your function anyway.  :smirk
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

sonofzeal

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #148 on: April 08, 2009, 11:30:58 PM »
Yeah, but if you entered it as a vanilla fighter (which is probably the most common entry), you didn't have those anyway, and it probably does make you a tiny bit better at being a living wall, which was your function anyway.  :smirk
Well, it does add a bonus to Strength, which is not going to help much for damage, but actually plays in really well with Tripmonkeydom, which is the kind of BC roll that the class is intended to fill anyway.  DD with a Guisarme could be a good combination...

And we did put Invisible Blade up, despite Feinting being a pretty sucky combat style, because the rest of the class is functional.  So there's precedence.

Brainpiercing

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #149 on: April 09, 2009, 05:26:09 AM »
Quote
Well, it does add a bonus to Strength, which is not going to help much for damage, but actually plays in really well with Tripmonkeydom, which is the kind of BC roll that the class is intended to fill anyway.  DD with a Guisarme could be a good combination...
IF the DD added reach, sure, then it might work. But as it is, a tripmonkey that can ONLY stand in doorways or tight passages isn't much good at all, IMHO. With at least 15ft reach it might work, though, you could stand in front of the team and be the wall.
So Aberration blood+Reach, Enlarge person and EWP(spiked chain), rather than a Guisarme. Add Improved Trip, Improved Bullrush and Stone Power, maybe, not even mentioning that you DO want Thicket of Blades - and in the end you don't even NEED defensive stance, because in the rare case that someone does get close you would have been better off being a straight fighter, because THEN you might have been able to afford, feat wise, taking Robilar's and Sidestep. So all this requires some serious juggling of feats, which only makes it harder to build a BC fighter rather than easier. And the WORST offenders are still the ridiculous requirements to take the class. TOUGHNESS!!!! ENDURANCE!!!! The WORST FEATS ever invented. That's like auto-gimping yourself. And, I have to say, that's actually quite sad, because the bonuses from Defensive stance aren't half-bad at all.
So really, IMHO the DD isn't "THE WALL" like he's supposed to be, he's the "THE CORK" up someone's ass.

-1 for the DD outside of some really specialised cases! (Stoneblessed Goliath, maybe.)

BC-Meleers don't need to gimp themselves with Prestige classes when just taking multiple Base classes covers their needs much better.

sonofzeal

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #150 on: April 09, 2009, 06:07:40 AM »
IF the DD added reach, sure, then it might work. But as it is, a tripmonkey that can ONLY stand in doorways or tight passages isn't much good at all, IMHO. With at least 15ft reach it might work, though, you could stand in front of the team and be the wall.
All good points... but I don't think it does justice to the fact that it's only a swift action to assume the stance, a free action to discard it, and the rest of the class sans Stance is a pretty fair trade even given the poor entrance feats.  And Stance can work if played as a proper BCer (and extra reach always helps there, but even just a polearm could be functional), if you're allowed to Dim Door using magic items without breaking Stance, or if you assume Stance at the end of a charge attack and break early when needed.

On the other hand, I do see how a "steretypical" Dwarven Defender can be pretty suboptimal, if your DM is tactically smart (by no means a guarantee; most I know try to play to player strengths and have monsters attack the nearest target, which is usually the tank).  It's always hard rating a class that supports a nonfunctional playstyle, but works just fine if you don't limit yourself that way.  Do you punish it for the stupidity it encourages, or reward the advantages it gives?  I'm leaning towards rewarding, personally, but that's just me.  And I'm a bit biased here - one of my all-time favorite characters was a Dwarven Defender with a flail who tripped legs, sundered weapons, disarmed traps with his face (including a Prismatic Wall once), and was generally badass.  At last mention he was in the body of a mindflayer and buck naked somewhere in the Abyss, but probably doing just fine.  *sniff*  Good memories...

Zombieboots

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #151 on: April 09, 2009, 12:09:29 PM »
At last mention he was in the body of a mindflayer and buck naked somewhere in the Abyss, but probably doing just fine.  *sniff*  Good memories...
tripped legs, sundered weapons, disarmed traps with his face (including a Prismatic Wall once), and was generally badass
nothing to aid his teammates- bottle neck hallways aside.

But hey: kudos for your long lost DwarFlayer, proof that you don't "Need" to optimize to have fun at this game- it certainly helps though.
Ah! Maddness. Thank you.[spoiler][/spoiler]

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #152 on: April 09, 2009, 01:02:37 PM »
Down Two or More Tiers.  These PrCs completely fail to do what they were trying to do, or makes heavy sacrifices for little to no gain.  Expect characters with these to be unplayable without heavy optimization effort, or some cunning trick.

Spinemeld Warrior

Have to disagree with you here. This is the LN version of a Totemist build. Skarn Monk 2/Totemist 9/Spinemeld Warrior 4/Warblade 3/Tigerclaw Master 2=Lots of attacks, and damage that rivals the Totem Rager. Granted, the Spinemeld Warrior doesn't progress soulmelds that well, but it is somewhat better than taking 15 levels in a worthless base class.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #153 on: April 09, 2009, 01:38:54 PM »
Oh no!  It's a dwarven defender!

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sonofzeal

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #154 on: April 09, 2009, 02:54:02 PM »
Honestly, he really wasn't optimized, he was just really fun to play.  LE is a fun alignment to put on a Dwarven Defender, and he was my first really vibrant character.  Plus, he completely walked all over the Paladin when he tried to start a scene.  But this is getting a little off-topic.   :p

tripped legs, sundered weapons, disarmed traps with his face (including a Prismatic Wall once), and was generally badass
nothing to aid his teammates- bottle neck hallways aside.

But hey: kudos for your long lost DwarFlayer, proof that you don't "Need" to optimize to have fun at this game- it certainly helps though.[/quote]
Agreed that "personally survive" is a horrible goal in a group, and would warrant a lower ranking.  But here's three things it does for the team...

a) Reduces drain on healbot's resources, and lets them stay further from the front lines (stupid "touch" spells drawing healbots into the line of fire...)

b) Increases your ability to actually survive prolonged enemy attention (who else can take a full-attack from a dragon in a core game?), sparing party members that same wrath.  Remember, half the goal of a BC Meleer was to make enemies focus on it, which is rather useless if you can't take that attention.

c) Boosts your Strength, which won't help all that much for normal attacks, but is actually significant for Tripmonkeying and Battlefield Control, which is what DDs are supposed to be doing in the first place.

d) Serve as a bottleneck any time you're not on a wide-open battlefield (which in my experience is most of the time), or if the enemies only use basic tactics (which is most of the time with some DMs and none of the time with others).

...certainly not overwhelming, but then most uses for Fighter Bonus Feats aren't much more impressive, and don't come with 1d12 HD, two good saves, and a bunch of other goodies.  Eh, I'll keep it at +0.

Surreal

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #155 on: April 09, 2009, 05:33:24 PM »
Down Two or More Tiers.  These PrCs completely fail to do what they were trying to do, or makes heavy sacrifices for little to no gain.  Expect characters with these to be unplayable without heavy optimization effort, or some cunning trick.

Spinemeld Warrior

Have to disagree with you here. This is the LN version of a Totemist build. Skarn Monk 2/Totemist 9/Spinemeld Warrior 4/Warblade 3/Tigerclaw Master 2=Lots of attacks, and damage that rivals the Totem Rager. Granted, the Spinemeld Warrior doesn't progress soulmelds that well, but it is somewhat better than taking 15 levels in a worthless base class.
I still don't see it. You can't combine your spines with other weapons, you have an essentia cap in your spines that's no better (and sometimes worse) than what you would normally have as a standard meldshaper, and it forces you down a suboptimal feat path (TWF) and only marginally gives you the tools to increase your damage potential.
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Some Handy Links for CO Work (WotC 339 version) - a compilation of links for base/prestige class handbooks, tactics, spellcasting, character builds, D&D databases, etc.
Archived version of the above with working links

The Mango Index - a giant index for all things D&D and where to find them
The Mango List Reborn! - rehosted by KellKheraptis

Lists of Stuff - listing of class features etc and how to get them, etc. sort of like above but a little more specific and sorted by category
Polymorph, Wildshape and Shapechange, oh my! (comparison charts) - side-by-side comparison of all the various form altering abilities
Alternative Class Features
alternative ways to get class skills

woodenbandman

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #156 on: April 09, 2009, 09:26:53 PM »
Down Two or More Tiers.  These PrCs completely fail to do what they were trying to do, or makes heavy sacrifices for little to no gain.  Expect characters with these to be unplayable without heavy optimization effort, or some cunning trick.

Spinemeld Warrior

Have to disagree with you here. This is the LN version of a Totemist build. Skarn Monk 2/Totemist 9/Spinemeld Warrior 4/Warblade 3/Tigerclaw Master 2=Lots of attacks, and damage that rivals the Totem Rager. Granted, the Spinemeld Warrior doesn't progress soulmelds that well, but it is somewhat better than taking 15 levels in a worthless base class.
I still don't see it. You can't combine your spines with other weapons, you have an essentia cap in your spines that's no better (and sometimes worse) than what you would normally have as a standard meldshaper, and it forces you down a suboptimal feat path (TWF) and only marginally gives you the tools to increase your damage potential.

Plus it doesn't add very much to anything. A shifter with Rapidstrike would be far better (use claws as weapons and make iteratives). They can take normal 2 weapon rend, or just add some girallon windmill flesh rip to get more damage than this build. Straight Warblade 20 is stronger than this, by definition making this prestige class a -1 tier or more.

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #157 on: April 09, 2009, 09:37:12 PM »
I'm also against bumping Dwarven Defender to a +1 tier.  Many reasons for this, most of which have already been stated.  It probably would get a +1 in a core-only environment.

woodenbandman

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #158 on: April 09, 2009, 09:54:48 PM »
I'd say it's +1 depending on what you're going for. Especially in Core Only games, it's very good. Combined with an enlarge person from the helpful arcanist, this guy is a pretty good tank. Good AC, probably good damage output, the main problem is battlefield control, which, once you exhaust your options from core, this class makes you better at (in core only of course).

Outside of core only: it's 3 shitty feats, and it robs you of your mobility. It's good for tanking, and you can be moved in other ways, such as Knight's Move or something like that (note it says "skills or abilities that require him to shift his position," but you do waste 3 feats on crap. If the requirements were changed, this would be +1 outside of core only, but as it stands, it's a +0, and that's assuming that you can move into position and make use of your defensive stance. If you had a bunch of these guys, like, an army of them, then it'd be good, but that's out because it requires 7 BAB. not exactly easy to amass an army of 10th level or higher dwarves. This could potentially be a base class if it eventually got the ability to fucking move.

Optimator

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #159 on: April 09, 2009, 10:45:39 PM »
YEah, I can see several instances where Taking Dwarven Defender would be an increase in power over not taking it, but those instances are just not quite common enough to warrant a true "+1" ranking.  I'd say +0, but it can certainly have its uses.