Author Topic: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs  (Read 76949 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

sonofzeal

  • Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 317
Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« on: March 16, 2009, 06:13:06 PM »
Rating PrCs is difficult.  It's obvious that some provide too much and some provide too little, but which is which depends on a lot of factors - base class entry being the most obvious.  Where the difference between two "logical entries" is huge, those entries can be listed separately (see Rainbow Servant), but just like for base classes, a single PrC can go up or down based on optimization skill, and we should focus on what we see as the "average" use.  We should only list a PrC multiple times if the multiple entries are all simple and straightforward given the requirements, as anything else falls under the individual's optimization skill.

It's also difficult to categorize power.  Soulbow certainly adds more to Soulknives than Mindbender does to Sorcerers, but I think most will agree that a high level Mindbender will still beat a Soulbow with both arms tied behind its back.  Still, ranking them that way is merely repeating the obvious, that some base classes are better than other, down through the list of PrCs ad nauseum.  That's neither helpful nor productive.  Instead, it would make more sense to rate PrCs by how much advantage they give, over their "logical entries".  In other words, a PrC for Soulknives is held to a different standard than a PrC for Sorcerers, and the grade tells you how strongly you should consider taking that PrC, assuming you're already working on a build that could qualify. 

So for this, I'll be referring to Tiers and how the PrC changes them, but I'm aware that there's multiple Tier systems out there that differ in substantial ways, and that some of these gradings will put classes into places they just don't belong when taken literally.  A Tier 3 with an "up one" PrC wouldn't necessarily be a Tier 2, and a Tier 1 with a "down two" PrC would probably still be better than most Tier 3 classes.  There will also be classes that go off the top or bottom of the scale.  The goal is merely to make it clear that an "up two" is better than an "up one", and that both are only in reference to the starting point as given by the "logical entry".  To repeat: the ranking is not literal.  It's just a guideline to help novice or intermediate players know where to start looking.



Books included so far
[spoiler]Book of Exalted Deeds (ave: +0.182)
Book of Vile Darkness (ave: +0.647) - Samb
Champions of Ruin (ave: +0.0)- Tam_OConnor
Complete Adventurer
Complete Arcane - biznarf
Complete Divine
Complete Mage (ave: +0.545) - Surreal
Complete Psionic - Samb
Complete Scoundrel - Samb
Complete Warrior
Drow of the Underdark - Akalsaris
Dungeon Masters Guide (ave: -0.375)
Eberron Campaign Setting
Expanded Psionics Handbook (ave: +0.222)
Expedition to Castle Ravenloft
Expedition to the Deamonweb Pits - Zombieboots
Frostburn - tusk
Heroes of Horror (ave: +0.5)
Libris Mortis (ave: -1.0) - Salt_Crow
Lords of Madness (ave: +1)
Lost Empires of Faerun - Tam_OConnor
Magic of Incarnum - woodenbandman
Planar Handbook (ave: +0.0) - tusk
Player's Guide to Faerun (ave: -0.1) - Tam_OConnor
Races of Destiny (ave: +0.176) - tusk
Races of Eberron (ave: +0.625) - Salvonus
Races of Stone (ave: +0.467) - Surreal
Races of the Dragon (ave: +0.0) - tusk
Races of the Wild - CthulhuM and Sirek Inta
Sandstorm
Serpent Kingdoms (ave: -0.06) - Tam_OConnor
Stormwrack
Tome of Battle
Tome of Magic - jameswilliamogle
Unapproachable East (ave: +0.417) - Tam_OConnor
Underdark (ave: +0.333) - Tam_OConnor
[/spoiler]

Books still needed: Cityscape, Complete Champion, Draconomicon, Dragon Magic, Dungeonscape, Fiendish Codex II, Ghostwalk, Heroes of Battle, Miniatures Handbook, Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde, and Weapons of Legacy, plus any setting-specific 3.5 books we've missed.

Up Two or More Tiers.  These PrCs improve the power of their entry classes dramatically, either by building on strengths or by adding powerful new ones.  Expect characters with these to blow their single-classed peers out of the water (and possibly get DM-smote, depending on the base class's power).
[spoiler]Anarchic Initiate
Anima Mage
Champion of Gwynharwyf
Disciple of Disapater
Dweomerkeeper
Emissaries of Barachiel
Halruuan Elder
Hulking Hurler
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil (unless your DM overrules Veils blocking Antimagic Fields)
Incantatrix (when combined with other metamagic cost reducers)
Legendary Captain (if naval combat is required)
Moonspeaker (with Knowledge Devotion)
Necrocarnate (unless your DM limits what you can draw essentia from)
Planar Sheppard
Rainbow Servant (Warmage entry)
Runescarred Berserker
Sacred Exorcist (non-Cleric entry)
Sentinel of Bharrai
Shadowcraft Mage
Soulbow
Soul Eater
Sublime Chord
Tainted Scholar
Telflammar Shadowlord
Thrallherd
Thrall of Juiblex
Ur-Priest
Void Disciple
Walker in the Waste
Warshaper (non-casting entry)[/spoiler]


Up One Tier.  These PrCs generally improve their entry classes substantially, without radically affecting game balance.  Expect characters with these to be powerful allies or dangerous enemies, without totally overshadowing their single-classed peers.
[spoiler]Abjurant Champion
Abolisher
Acolyte of the Ego
Aglarondan Griffonrider
Annointed Knight
Arachnomancer
Arcane Heirophant
Ashworm Dragoon
Assassin
Atavist
Bear Warrior
Beloved of Valarian
Blackguard
Blade Bravo
Bloodclaw Master
Bloodhound
Breachgnome
Cabinet Trickster
Cavalier
Cavelord
Cancer Mage (broken with festering rage)
Celestial Mystic
Chaotician
Chameleon (an odd case by any standard)
Champion of Corellon Larethian
Church Inquisitor
Contemplative
Cragtop Archer
Daggerspell Shaper
Darkrunner
Death Delver
Deepwarden
Defender of Sealtiel
Demonwrecker
Dervish
Diabolist
Disciple of Amodeus
Disciple of Baalzebul
Disciple of Mephistopheles
Disciple of the Eye
Disciple of Thrym
Divine Crusader
Divine Oracle
Divine Prankster
Dragon Devotee (for non-casters)
Dragonmark Heir
Dread Fang of Lolth
Dread Pirate
Drow Judicator
Drunken Master
Earth Dreamer
Eldeen Ranger
Elemental Warrior
Elven High Mage
Enlightened Fist
Eternal Blade
Exotic Weapons Master
Eye of Horus-Re
Fatemaker (worse for bards)
Fatespinner (fifth level not recommended)
Fiend-Blooded
Fist of Raziel (Charging Smite paladin variant highly recommended)
Fleshwarper
Frenzied Berserker
Frost Mage (Sorc entry)
Ghost Faced Killer
Grey Guard
Halfling Outrider
Hammer of Moradin
Hathran
Heir of Siberys
Holy Liberator
Holy Scourge
Illithid Body Tamer
Illumine Soul
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
Ironsoul Forgemaster
Jade Phoenix Mage
Jaunter
Justicar of Tyr
Keeper of the Cerulean Sign
Knight of the Chalice
Knight of the Raven
Knight of Sacred Seal
Knight Protector
Leviathan Hunter
Lion of Talisid
Loredelver
Loremaster
Lyric Thaumaturge
Malconvoker
Mage of the Arcane Order
Magical Trickster
Master Inquisitive
Master of Many Forms (Ranger entry)
Master of Masks (Spellthief entry)
Master of Shadow
Master Specialist
Master Thrower
Menacing Brute
Mortal Hunter
Mountebank
Nentyar Hunter
Nightsong Enforcer
Nightmare Spinner
Noctumancer
Olin Gisir
Orc Warlord
Pale Master
Primeval
Prophet of Erathaol
Psibond Agent
Psionic Fist
Quori Nightmare
Radiant Servant of Pelor
Recaster
Rimefire Witch
Risen Martyr
Ruby Knight Vindicator
Runesmith
Sacred Exorcist (Cleric entry)
Sacred Fist
Sanctified Mind
Sand Shaper (Sorc entry)
Scion of Dantalion
Scion of Tem-Et-Nu
Scorpion Heritor
Sea Mother Whip
Shadowbane Inquisitor (in conjunction with Blackguard)
Shadowbane Stalker
Shadow Sentinal
Shining South
Shou Disciple
Singer of Concordance
Skypledged
Slayer
Slayer of Domiel
Spellfire Hierophant
Spellwarp Sniper
Stoneblessed
Suel Arcanamach
Temple Raider of Olidammara (for non-Rogue entry)
Thaumaturgist
Thayan Gladiator
Thrall of Demogoron
Topaz Guardian (gish entry)
Triadic Knight
Umbral Disciple
Unseen Seer
Urban Soul
Vassal of Bahamut
Vengeance Knight
Virtuoso
Warforged Juggernaut
War Mind (non-pure psi entries)
Warrior of Darkness
Warrior Skald
Weretouched Master
Whisperknife
Wild Plains Outrider
Wildrunner
Wild Soul
Winterhaunt of Iborighu
Witch Slayer (non-caster entry)
Zerth Cenobite[/spoiler]


Equal.  These PrCs are roughly on par with their entry classes overall, trading strengths in certain areas for strengths in others, or provides moderate gains for a moderate investment (ie required feats or unfavorable multiclassing).  Expect characters with these to fit naturally into a single-classed party.
[spoiler]Alienist
Animal Lord
Arcane Devotee
Archmage
Ardent Dilettant
Astral Dancer
Avenging Executioner
Battlerager
Battle Trickster
Beastmaster
Black Blood Hunter
Blood Magus
Champions of Valor
Child of the Night
Cipher Adept
Cloud Ancorite
Combat Trapper
Consecrated Harrier
Corrupt Avenger
Cultist of the Shattered Peak
Daggerspell Mage
Darkwood Stalker
Deep Diviner
Deepstone Sentinal
Disciple of Mammon
Disciple of the Word
Divine Champion
Divine Disciple
Divine Seeker
Dracolexi
Dwarven Defender
Dread Witch
Demonbinder
Ectopic Adept (but only if your DM uses CPsi nerfs already)
Eldritch Disciple
Eldritch Knight
Eldritch Theurge
Elemental Savant
Elocater (Psychic Warrior or Psychic Rogue entry)
Exorcist of the Sacred Flame
Eye of Gruumsh
Fang of Sseth
Fiendbinder
Flayerspawn Psychic
Frost Mage (Wizard entry)
Frost Rager
Fortune's Friend
Geometer
Gnome Giant-Slayer
Goliath Liberator
Great Rift Deep Defender
Great Rift Skyguard
Hand of the Adama
Highland Stalker
Imaskari Vengeance Taker
Inquisitor of the Drowning Goddess
Invisible Blade (feint not recommended)
Jordain Vizier
Justicar
Kensai
Knight of Iron Glacier
Knight of the Pearl
Knight of the Weave
Lord of Tides (Cleric Entry)
Luiren Marchwarden
Maester
Magelord
Maiden of Pain
Maquar Crusader
Master of Masks (general entry)
Master of Vipers
Mindspy (CAdv version)
Moonsea Skysentinel
Morninglord of Lathander
Nar Demonbinder
Nature's Warrior
Netherese Arcanist
Occult Slayer
Peregrine Runner
Pious Templar (except for 1 level dips)
Prime Underdark Guide
Psion Uncarnate
Purple Dragon Knight
Ravager
Reachrunner
Reforged
Red Wizard
Ronin
Ruathar
Runecaster
Sapphire Hierarch
Scar Enforcer
Scourge Maiden
Seeker of the Misty Isle
Serpent Slayer
Shaaryan Hunter
Shade Hunter
Shadow Adept
Shadowband Inquisitor
Shadowblade
Shadowcrafter
Shadowsmith
Shadow Thief of Amn
Soulcaster
Spellcarved Soldier
Spellsinger
Spinemeld Warrior
Spymaster
Stonedeath Assassin
Stonelord
Stonespeaker Guardian
Stormcaster
Storm Disciple (Ardent dip entry)
Stormlord
Stormsinger
Stormtalon (except for 1 level dips)
Streetfighter
Sword of Righteousness
Talontar Blightlord
Tattooed Monk
Temple Raider of Olidammara (Rogue entry)
Thayan Slaver
Totem Rager
Thayan Knight
Thrall of Orcus
Ultimate Magus (except with fast entry tricks)
Uncanny Trickster
Unseen Seer
Vermin Keeper
Vigilante
War Chanter
War Mind (pure PsiWar entry)
Warshaper (casting entry)
Warsling Sniper
Wild Mage
Witch Slayer (gish entry)
Zhentarim Spy[/spoiler]


Down One.  These PrCs are generally inferior to their obvious entry classes, losing out on important features in order to gain things that are likely not to matter in the long run.  Expect characters with these to struggle in a single-classed party.  They may still be viable for cherrypicking, or under heavy optimization.
[spoiler]Ancient Master
Arachnomancer
Arcane Trickster
Argent Savant
Bladesinger
Black Blood Cultist
Black Flame Zealot
Bloodstorm Blade (except 2 level dips)
Cavestalker (Ranger entry)
Celebrant of Sharess
Cerebremancer
Cloaked Dancer
Cognition Thief
Coiled Cultist
Cryokineticist
Dark Hunter
Death's Chosen
Demonlogist
Doomguard
Dragon Disciple
Dragonheart Mage
Dungeon Delver
Durthan
Ebon Saint
Effigy Master
Elocater (Psion entry)
Enlightened Spirit
Exalted Arcanist
Exemplar
Extreme Explorer
Evereskan Tomb Guardian
Geomancer (varies greatly on entry)
Glorious Servitor
Halruuan Magehand
Harper Agent
Harper Paragon
Heirophant
Horizon Walker
Hospitaler
Hunter of the Dead
Incandescent Champion
Initiate of Pistis Sophia
Justice of Weald and Woe
Kinstalker
Lord of Tides (Druid Entry)
Luckstealer
Martyred Champion of Ilmater
Master of Many Forms (Druid entry)
Master of Nine (unless you can get some of the feats for "free")
Master of Radiance
Master of Shrounds
Master of the Yuirwood
Master Transmogrifist
Mindspy (CWarrior version)
Monk of the Long Death
Mystic Theurge
Naga Lord
Nightmask Deathbringer
Nightsong Infiltrator
Order of the Bow Initiate
Outcast Champion
Purifier of the Hallowed Doctrine
Pyrokineticist
Rage Mage
Rainbow Servant (Sor/Wiz entry)
Sacred Purifier
Sand Shaper (Wiz Entry)
Scarlet Corsair (except with capstone abuse)
Sea Witch
Shadowdancer
Shadow Sun Ninja (unless you resist Con damage)
Shining Blade
Skylord
Slime Lord
Spellguard of Silverymoon
Spellsword (except for 1 level dips)
Stalker of Kharash
Storm Disciple (Pure Ardent entry)
Sunmaster
Swanmay
Tempest
Tenebrous Apostate
Thief-Acrobat
Thrall of Graz'zt
Topaz Guardian (caster entry)
Troubadour of Stars
Vermin Lord
Visionary Seeker
Warpriest
Wayfarer Guide (except for 1 level dips)
Yathchol Webrider[/spoiler]


Down Two or More Tiers.  These PrCs completely fail to do what they were trying to do, or makes heavy sacrifices for little to no gain.  Expect characters with these to be unplayable without heavy optimization effort, or some cunning trick.
[spoiler]Acolyte of the skin
Apostle of Peace (not broken, but blatantly contradictory text on material possessions)
Arcane Archer
Bereft
Blighter
Brimstone Speaker
Cavestalker (Druid entry)
Defiant
Dirgesinger
Duelist
Entropomancer
Evangelist
Eye of Lolth
Fochlucan Lyrist (unless Evasion is gained without dips, then Up One Tier)
Green Star Adept
Incarnum Blade
Insidious Corrupter (Arcane Spellcaster entry)
Lifedrinker
Master of the Unseen Hand
Metamind (higher with abuse of the capstone)
Mindbender (except for 1 level dips)
Ollam
Reaping Mauler
True Necromancer
Wavekeeper
Witchborn Binder
Wonderworker
Yathrinshee[/spoiler]

Note - possible reorganization coming.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 03:31:37 AM by sonofzeal »

Jvirtue55

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 64
    • Email
Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2009, 06:50:44 PM »
I think how you have it set up is really going to be helpful keep it up

woodenbandman

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2188
    • Email
Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2009, 07:23:15 PM »
I disagree with some of your rankings, but I do like the organizations.

sonofzeal

  • Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 317
Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2009, 07:41:04 PM »
I disagree with some of your rankings, but I do like the organizations.
No two people are ever going to agree on all the rankings, but if you can convince me, I'll change it.  And if you get other posters backing you up, I'll change it even if I'm still not convinced.  Sound fair?

PhaedrusXY

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8022
  • Advanced Spambot
Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2009, 07:46:15 PM »
Incantatrix, Shadowcraft Mage, Dweomerkeeper, and Anima Mage should all be +1 Tier, I think. It would be more, but the classes that usually take those are already Tier 1 base classes. If added to a non-wizard, Shadowcraft Mage could be +2 tiers, I guess. Dweomerkeeper is arguably +2 Tiers added to anything, too. :p I don't see many spellcasting PrCs in there yet, either, but I understand that this is a work in progress.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

bitznarf

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 74
Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2009, 08:26:56 PM »
I'll take a stab at rating the PrCs from Complete Arcane - these would be my initial impressions of the classes - note that I've not tried to optimize many of these to see where they could go.

Up 2 or more Tiers:

Up 1 Tier:
Alienist
Enlightened Fist
Fatespinner - this really is only a 4 level class
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
Sublime Chord

Equal:
Blood Magus - possibly considered Down One Tier at level 5 and beyond
Elemental Savant - possibly considered Down One Tier at level 5 and beyond
Geometer
Mage of the Arcane Order
Suel Arcanamach
Wild Mage

Down One Tier:
Argent Savant
Effigy Master
Green Star Adept
Wayfarer Guide - except 1 level dips

Down Two or more Tiers:
Acolyte of the skin
Mindbender (except a 1 level dip)

Not rated - I'm not familiar enough with these to take a stab at rating them.
Master Transmorgrifist
Seeker of the Song

PhaedrusXY

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8022
  • Advanced Spambot
Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2009, 08:36:49 PM »
Alienist is down 1 tier. You can't summon anything but pseudonatural creatures anymore, and they aren't actually that good compared to the summoned monsters you lose the ability to summon.

Suel Arcanamach can add casting to a non-caster, and gets a great spell list. Definitely +1 Tier.

I'd also say Sublime Chord is +2 tiers.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

bitznarf

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 74
Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2009, 08:39:58 PM »
I'll defer Alienist and Suel Arcanamach to your judgment there - I've not actually tried to do anything with either of those.  (The most I've seen was the true striking dire weasels).  Sublime Chord though - I don't think it would raise a bard (tier 3) to wizard (tier 1) level - it does definitely take a bard to a sorcerer's level however - up one tier.

sonofzeal

  • Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 317
Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2009, 08:54:42 PM »
Excellent, thanks for those, I'll be adding them in now.  The only change I'll make is to put IotSV as "Up Two", possibly with a note about the AMF / Prismatic Wall issue, and Incantrix because it's just so stupidly awesome when done right.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2009, 09:00:17 PM by sonofzeal »

bitznarf

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 74
Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2009, 09:00:04 PM »
I don't think it's on the same level as a Planar Sheppard, but I've not actually played one.  That and the entry requirements are distinctly suboptimal.
Ah, I see what you mean, very good then.

sonofzeal

  • Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 317
Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2009, 09:02:33 PM »

I don't think it's on the same level as a Planar Sheppard, but I've not actually played one.  That and the entry requirements are distinctly suboptimal.

Nothing's on the level of the Planar Sheppard.  The question is whether or not it's a significantly bigger boost than most "Up One" PrCs are, and I think it is.

I think Alienist is "Equal"; you gain some nice things, but you lose some nice things too, and I think it balances out overall.  I'll take PhaedrusXY's other recommendations momentarily....
« Last Edit: March 16, 2009, 09:05:18 PM by sonofzeal »

Akalsaris

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1143
    • Email
Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2009, 11:53:52 PM »
Agreed on Alienist being at +0 for most characters.  True Strike is actually quite nice compared to smite evil, and at low levels you generally only want to summon animals anyhow, plus the various other class features are superior to simply taking levels of wizard. 

In my own case Conj. 5/Alienist 2 was a great build for an arena game, since it was a level 5-8 arena with a lot of concealment and cover, and it worked especially well with stinking cloud and similar effects.  But it definitely loses steam against malconvoker or master specialist at levels 12+.

Oh, and I'd put Master Transmogrifist as -1 tier for a caster, possibly -2 tiers.  It works well in niche builds like my last Iron Chef entry, but it really does suck compared to simply casting PAO or Shapechange.

Here's my reading for Drow of the Underdark, assuming that Half-Drow qualifies for the Drow racial requirement:

Up 2 or more Tiers:

Up 1 Tier:
Dread Fang of Lolth (Rogue/Fighter entry)

Equal:
Demonbinder

Down One Tier:
Arachnomancer (Can still get 9th level spells, but the abilities suck)
Cavestalker (Ranger entry)
Kinstalker (Only worthwhile in a heavily anti-elf game)

Down Two or more Tiers:
Insidious Corrupter (Arcane Spellcaster entry)
Cavestalker (Druid entry)
Eye of Lolth

Endarire

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2171
    • Email
Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2009, 12:07:41 AM »
Archmage (DMG) is Tier +0.  It has spiffy abilities like Arcane Reach and Mastery of Shaping, but it requires 3 feats, level 7 arcane casting, and 15 skill ranks to enter, and you trade spell slots for abilities.  You can get similar effects from feats or items at lower levels: Reach Spell for Arcane Reach, Extraordinary Spell Aim for Mastery of Shaping, Energy Substitution for Mastery of Elements, and a Ring of Arcane Might for Spell Power.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Negative Zero

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1532
    • Email
Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2009, 12:15:34 AM »
Master Transmogrifist is pretty meh except for the capstone, which has great potential for game-breaking.

sonofzeal

  • Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 317
Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2009, 01:45:57 AM »
Here's my ideas for Complete Divine.  Feel free to make any comments before I put them in the list, as there's really only a few here that I have any experience with, so I'm mostly just going by a quick scan and may easily miss something important.


Up two
Divine Crusader
Rainbow Servant (Warmage entry)
Sacred Exorcist (non-Cleric entry)
Ur-Priest
Void Disciple (really not sure here..... any FAQ on how Sense Void actually works?)


Up one
Church Inquisitor
Contemplative
Divine Oracle
Geomancer
Holy Liberator
Radiant Servant of Pelor
Sacred Exorcist (Cleric entry)
Sacred Fist
Stormlord
Temple Raider of Olidammara (for non-Rogue entry)
Warpriest


Equal
Consecrated Harrier
Hospitaler
Pious Templar (except for 1 level dips)
Seeker of the Misty Isle
Temple Raider of Olidammara (Rogue entry)


Down one
Black Flame Zealot
Rainbow Servant (Sor/Wiz entry)
Shining Blade


Down two
Blighter
Entropomancer
Evangelist

Endarire

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2171
    • Email
Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2009, 02:11:09 AM »
Divine Crusader is up 1 at most- and +0 in my opinion- since it gets spells no sooner than a full caster and spells are restricted to 1 domain.  Ur-Priest far outdoes it.

Geomancer's viability varies greatly on its build.  A Wizard3/Cleric3/GeomancerX sucks.  Rules trickery to get all spells auto-quickened with Prestige Paladin and Battle Blessing puts it up 1.

Stormlord (AKA Stormlord of Talos) feels about +0.  It's full casting, but requires 2 or 3 crap feats and its bonuses are very specific to electricity and spears/javelins.  Storm Ride is similar to stormrage (Spell Compendium) but up to 4 levels sooner.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

ReaderOfPosts

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 115
    • Email
Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2009, 03:57:10 AM »
How do you measure the truly bizarre one's like Chameleon?

sonofzeal

  • Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 317
Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2009, 06:24:04 AM »
How do you measure the truly bizarre one's like Chameleon?
Well, Chameleon really isn't that bizarre, just flexible.  Its gameplay mechanic is pretty unique and distinctive, but power-wise it still functions like most other PrCs.  It has a defined logical entry (Rogue, Bard, and Factotum come to mind, but anything with good skillpoints and Disguise works), and it grants a certain set of abilities.  I'd put it at Up One or possibly even Up Two, though I'd prefer with hands-on experience made that call for me. 

There are a few PrCs I'm dreading though.  Stoneblessed is an obvious one, since it's so bloody short, so easy to get into, and obviously only exists to help you do other things later on rather than standing on its own merits.  Judging it is like judging the combined total weight of all the race-specific options it could qualify you for, plus some since you can still have race-specific options from your base race, minus some because it takes three levels out of your build.  Legacy Champion is one of the other ones that's nigh impossible to rate, for most of the same reasons - it has no real entry, and it rests on the merits of a total unknown (whichever legacy weapon you choose).  Not fun to rate.


On this note - can anyone weigh in on Void Disciples?  If I'm reading them correctly, some of the stuff they get is crazy beyond belief, but I've never really seen them come up on these boards before.

ReaderOfPosts

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 115
    • Email
Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2009, 01:46:34 PM »
The thing with chameleon is that it plays more like a base class you start taking at level 5 than a prestige class. The chameleon's I've seen played have all front end loaded dipping classes, so I would hardly say that you can qualify a prestige class legitimately lead into by Fighter 2/ Psy-warrior 2/ Cleric 1 as being labeled a +1 class, since all the lead-ins are of very different levels and types of play.

PlzBreakMyCampaign

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1373
  • Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2009, 03:28:28 PM »
Zeal please update your first post with your new finds - Lets make this thing work.

Most of your classifications (that I am familiar enough with) are okay except:

Divine Crusader should be +1 since it requires a really maxed wis score to cast more than 1 of the single 9th level spell it gets at level 17 (also deity chose is very important)

Radiant Servant of Pelor should be +0. Its pretty much a pelor cleric. The real benefits take a long time to get (there are better ways) and what it is gives (rather than what it is supposed to give) isn't really that useful

MoMF should be -1 for Druid entry (being able to become anything except constructs, magical beasts, outsiders, and undead not about 20HD is pretty sweet.)

Of course MoMF with non-Druid entry should be atleast +0
« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 03:31:58 PM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r