Author Topic: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?  (Read 33314 times)

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ReaderOfPosts

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2009, 08:01:22 AM »

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2009, 08:04:39 AM »
And just to make myself clear, here is my simplified stance on things.

- I feel it is the DM's job to control what gear and spells etc that the players get. If this adjusts their approximate wealth by level guidelines, then the encounters are adjusted to suit
- cherry picking spells/gear/etc is unrealistic (take that for what it's worth in a fantasy game :P); player should have to earn there toys, especially those that can wreak havok with the game and balance
- it is both the DM and player's responsibility to ensure balance and fair gaming (within the game world, with fellow players, etc)
- in general, I feel that high level spellcasting is inherently dangerous to game balance and requires careful monitoring between player and DM alike

That all said, if your game environment has a bunch of responsible people playing and you all enjoying playing on the same ridiculous power curve (or not, but still have fun anyways), then all the more power to you. I've played in some over the top games before, and even though some of us were low on the power curve (y'know... compared to the gestalt planar shepherd/hellfire warlock), the high power guys did a good job of policing themselves so the other players and DM didn't have to resort to drastic measures to keep thing sane.


Well Im not sure if most are disagreeing, but since the anit-magicmart crowd isn't getting much love:

Surreal is quite right to be weary of 'high level spellcasting'. Just take a look at my dirty handbook fixes thread. How many entries are 9th level? (tons!) How many are from spells that are lower than that? (iirc, none.) [for the record I started my 10//10 thread before this one]

While I am generally weary of the magic mart (ESPECIALLY for spells/scrolls!) I find it reasonable for a DM to allow most equipment to somehow flow to the players. He should also not hesitate to ban anything gamebreaking (dust of sneezying and choking anyone?)

Also yes, I prefer not to have crafting in my games (its a headache) but I do admit it is both more optimal and can provide a loophole in low-magic campaigns.
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jameswilliamogle

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2009, 09:51:18 AM »
Right now I'm in a very high-powered Faerunian game, and we have tons of gold... in Athkatla...  There's only about a 30% chance that any item we ask for will be available, and that gets modified by the "black market-ness" of the item, and we have to make a diplomacy check to haggle.  Although a few fairly standard items were rare (+stat items, +AC items), this does add to the realism in this game (Athkatlans are very distrusting of magic).  I'm playing a Binder, so I expect that I'll start doing crafting in the downtime using the Wizard's spellcasting after a while.

Also, regarding the unrealism of not being able to spend gold: I think it totally depends on the setting.  Are you in a Soviet Russia - style country?  Is feudalism the norm?  I'm not sure that buying sports cars et al would be OK.  But, if its a corporate model country, then that might be cool.  Totally depends on the environment.

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2009, 11:33:16 AM »
^And that's totally fine as long as the players agree to it beforehand.

RobbyPants

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2009, 12:02:03 PM »
And just to make myself clear, here is my simplified stance on things.

- I feel it is the DM's job to control what gear and spells etc that the players get. If this adjusts their approximate wealth by level guidelines, then the encounters are adjusted to suit
- cherry picking spells/gear/etc is unrealistic (take that for what it's worth in a fantasy game :P); player should have to earn there toys, especially those that can wreak havok with the game and balance
- it is both the DM and player's responsibility to ensure balance and fair gaming (within the game world, with fellow players, etc)
- in general, I feel that high level spellcasting is inherently dangerous to game balance and requires careful monitoring between player and DM alike
I'm curious (as I haven't seen any mention of it yet): how do you handle item creation feats?
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jameswilliamogle

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2009, 12:38:56 PM »

I'm curious (as I haven't seen any mention of it yet): how do you handle item creation feats?
My guess is that he lets item creation work as normal (ie, if you have the time and the feat, go for it).

Caelic

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2009, 02:53:08 PM »
Also, I actually find that it takes suspension of belief to picture a fantasy world where you couldn't buy magical items, given enough resources. 

Middle Earth.  The world of the Belgariad.  Melnibone.  The Hyborean Age of Conan.

I don't find it particularly difficult.

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2009, 03:57:39 PM »
Also, I actually find that it takes suspension of belief to picture a fantasy world where you couldn't buy magical items, given enough resources. 

Middle Earth.  The world of the Belgariad.  Melnibone.  The Hyborean Age of Conan.

I don't find it particularly difficult.

Neither do I, but I place that under "grim" or "gritty" fantasy rather than medieval high-fantasy. Conan is generally considered a good example of low-magic fantasy, but it's not my cup of tea. I actually like the idea of worlds with magimarts in them (granted... it shouldn't stock everything), though I've never seen it implemented, or at least implemented well.
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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2009, 04:04:05 PM »
Also, I actually find that it takes suspension of belief to picture a fantasy world where you couldn't buy magical items, given enough resources. 

Middle Earth.  The world of the Belgariad.  Melnibone.  The Hyborean Age of Conan.

I don't find it particularly difficult.

You could buy magic items in Middle Earth.  You just had to be in the right place and have the right connections.  Middle Earth magic isn't flashy, but a +1 keen Nazgul Bane dagger isn't that hard to come across if you really want one.  The elves just gave the fellowship magic itmes (including magic rope), so presumably if they'd actually had money they could have bought some as well.

Melnibone... do you really think that Elric couldn't have picked up some items in his starting town if he felt the urge?

Conan... do magic items even exist?  I can't quite recall.  If they do, given the accepted method for him to lose everything between novels is selling it so he can have money to spend on wine, women and song, then it's definately possible to sell magic items, and hence buy them.

Not familiar with the Belgaraid.
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RobbyPants

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2009, 04:12:18 PM »
Also, I actually find that it takes suspension of belief to picture a fantasy world where you couldn't buy magical items, given enough resources. 

Middle Earth.  The world of the Belgariad.  Melnibone.  The Hyborean Age of Conan.

I don't find it particularly difficult.
You can justify it either way, but the justification is always subjective.

Basically, it all hinges on how jealously casters guard their own XP points (or whatever non-metagaming term they'd have for it).  It costs time, money, and XP to create items.  You double your money investment going into it, so effectively you have to compare that gain in gold to the expenditure of time and XP.  Unless you're busy as hell, the time expenditure isn't that huge, but it's still subjective.  Given how much XP you pay to make an item and what you gain in a typical CR-appropriate fight, the XP expenditure probably isn't that bad either, but some casters could just be plain stingy.  Anyway, my point is that a caster might not see it as worth while to spend XP on something he's just going to sell for money.

If you take house-rules into account, a DM can justify this easier.  The easiest way I can see to alter how common magical items are is to alter what it costs to create them.  If it suddenly takes ten times the XP, very few people are going to make them.  Of course, this is a house-rule.
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jameswilliamogle

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2009, 04:20:21 PM »
I like to think that in high-mart campaigns there's one Wizard who figured out the Candle of Invocation loop, and is abusing it, but doesn't want to get notice, so is doling out the goods for a profit very slowly...

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2009, 04:26:15 PM »
I like to think that in high-mart campaigns there's one Wizard who figured out the Candle of Invocation loop, and is abusing it, but doesn't want to get notice, so is doling out the goods for a profit very slowly...
He initially earned the 8,000 gp by buying iron pots, breaking them, and selling the raw iron for more money (or was it ladders that he broke up into two separate 10-foot poles?). :p
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[spoiler]
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It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
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Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
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I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
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Caelic

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2009, 04:27:04 PM »
I actually like the idea of worlds with magimarts in them (granted... it shouldn't stock everything), though I've never seen it implemented, or at least implemented well.


Robert Asprin's Myth series is probably the closest you'll come.  The Bazaar at Deva bears more than a few similarities to Sigil.

Caelic

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2009, 04:32:42 PM »
You could buy magic items in Middle Earth.  You just had to be in the right place and have the right connections.  Middle Earth magic isn't flashy, but a +1 keen Nazgul Bane dagger isn't that hard to come across if you really want one.  The elves just gave the fellowship magic itmes (including magic rope), so presumably if they'd actually had money they could have bought some as well.


The fellowship was on a quest to save the planet.  I think we can safely say that the elves had reason to give them items beyond a casual whim.  As for a "+1 keen Nazgul Bane dagger" not being that hard to come across, we only see one in the Ring trilogy, and again, it's not for sale at the local McMagic.  Heck, a simple mithril chain shirt is worth more than the entire Shire.

Seriously: these are the epic, world-saving heroes--Arthurian in stature.  The Once and Future King, Aragorn.  The Fallen Knight, Boromir.  The More-Than-Human Wizard, Gandalf--heck, Gandalf is effectively a demigod.  And, collectively, they have fewer magical doo-dads than your typical eighth level D&D party. 

"Melnibone... do you really think that Elric couldn't have picked up some items in his starting town if he felt the urge?"

If he did, he or his immediate relatives would be the ones making them.


"Conan... do magic items even exist?  I can't quite recall.  If they do, given the accepted method for him to lose everything between novels is selling it so he can have money to spend on wine, women and song, then it's definately possible to sell magic items, and hence buy them."


The few times Conan got his hands on a magic item, he didn't wind up selling it.  Usually, he wound up having to destroy it to stop it from summoning some big bad end-of-the-world demon type.


Quote
Not familiar with the Belgaraid.


A grand total of four magic items I can think of: the two stones that symbolize the division of all reality, the Sword of the Rivan King (which is more of a receptacle for one of the two stones,) and Cthrek Goru, which is the sword of a god.  Despite this, the Belgariad is about as high fantasy as it comes.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 04:51:12 PM by Caelic »

Kuroimaken

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2009, 05:16:26 PM »
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The fellowship was on a quest to save the planet.  I think we can safely say that the elves had reason to give them items beyond a casual whim.  As for a "+1 keen Nazgul Bane dagger" not being that hard to come across, we only see one in the Ring trilogy, and again, it's not for sale at the local McMagic.  Heck, a simple mithril chain shirt is worth more than the entire Shire.

Seriously: these are the epic, world-saving heroes--Arthurian in stature.  The Once and Future King, Aragorn.  The Fallen Knight, Boromir.  The More-Than-Human Wizard, Gandalf--heck, Gandalf is effectively a demigod.  And, collectively, they have fewer magical doo-dads than your typical eighth level D&D party.

The save the planet thing I can understand. However, I find that your calculations about them having less magical items than a typical eighth-level party is inaccurate, at least as far as the value of those items go.

Of note, Gandalf had Glamdring (not that he used it, ever, except for dealing with the Balrog, at least in the movies), which was regarded as a very special sword in its own right, definitely not just a +1 longsword. Frodo had Sting, which as I recall Bilbo gave him (and which was reportedly found in an adventure in his earlier years - I cannot recall with precision. The sword had to have been forged by someone, therefore, barring someone who got off on making magical items, there was something in for someone to make it in the first place). They all had those special elven capes that made them camouflaged and comfy under most environments (endure elements and camouflage spell effects, effective all day?). As for the mithral chain shirt being worth more than the Shire, how much is a village worth in D&D terms, REALLY?

I believe there was mention in one of the LotR RPG books that "magic in Middle-Earth isn't flashy and is more about craftsmanship", so it would be safe to assume that mithral chain shirt is magic too.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2009, 05:25:47 PM »
You could buy magic items in Middle Earth.  You just had to be in the right place and have the right connections.  Middle Earth magic isn't flashy, but a +1 keen Nazgul Bane dagger isn't that hard to come across if you really want one.  The elves just gave the fellowship magic itmes (including magic rope), so presumably if they'd actually had money they could have bought some as well.


The fellowship was on a quest to save the planet.  I think we can safely say that the elves had reason to give them items beyond a casual whim.  As for a "+1 keen Nazgul Bane dagger" not being that hard to come across, we only see one in the Ring trilogy, and again, it's not for sale at the local McMagic.  Heck, a simple mithril chain shirt is worth more than the entire Shire.
We see two or three of them.  Buried with the corpse of a Numenorean leader.  I think Merry, Pippen and Sam all get them, dunno about Frodo...

Point is, you don't make that sort of thing without being paid for materials, labor et cetera


Oh, and magic items were definitely for sale at the end of The Hobbit.  Heck, I'm fairly certain Bilbo gave out a bunch of minor wondrous items at his long expected party.
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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2009, 06:04:34 PM »
Old guard vs. New guard.

I don't really care, either way.  I do my best to build a certain level of item-independence into every character I actually play, now, though, after that stupid underdark game when I played the wizard (and even then, I still had fun).
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 06:06:22 PM by jameswilliamogle »

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2009, 06:25:43 PM »
Thinking about the examples, I feel like the Belgariad is a little out of place. Yes, it's definitely high fantasy, but there are maybe a dozen real magicians on the whole planet, every single one of them a being of earthshaking power, and the only magic items (the orbs) were made by the gods. Not to say that you couldn't run a D&D game in that vein, but it'd probably fall under the whole player consent clause to have a game where Joe Blow PC can't be a spellcaster because of their rarity.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2009, 06:45:22 PM »
Part of the issue is, I suspect, the strawman argument that if magic items are available THEN there must be some sort of discount item superstore.

That's basically like saying

If technology exists THEN all technology must be bought at some sort of "McTech Mart", where you can buy machine guns, supercomputers, corvettes, tesla coils, MRIs, MREs, fifteen meter suction cups, and oil rigs.

All of those things can conceivably be bought, but nobody's stock them all (well, maybe army surplus)
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jameswilliamogle

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2009, 06:49:25 PM »
That might be some of it to some folks.  To me, its the unrealism of it all that bothers me.  I can't envision a world where magic items are that easy to get and they aren't imploding into bits and pieces from too much spellcasting.  Akin to giving every person on the planet who can afford it a nuke.