Author Topic: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster  (Read 84697 times)

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jameswilliamogle

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #80 on: March 13, 2009, 02:44:46 PM »

Ugh, you guys are still using those builds.  :lmao
Put up a build!

ErhnamDJ

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #81 on: March 13, 2009, 04:58:30 PM »

I'm workin' on it... mentally. While I sleep. I think.

Akalsaris

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #82 on: March 13, 2009, 06:01:51 PM »

Some of the problems with that:

You still have not discovered a way to find the wizard. This is the important part.

He has Mindsight. He sees you coming.

He is immune to being turned fanatic (Mind Blank).

The wizard has twenty-some off Contingency spells.

He is immune to poison.

And, to top it all off, you took ten levels of a crappy prestige class and the rogue levels needed to enter. Also, you're a drow.

Thanks for playing.

ErhnamDJ, there's no need for the condescension, buddy.  I'm rooting for the underdog here, thank you very much, so I already knew it was going to be tough to come up with a workable build.  Maybe instead of shooting down ideas you can do something constructive and suggest ways to overcome the issues?

And when we're down to the pathetic point where the biggest advantage a caster has is turning into a fucking giant turtle from an otherwise low-powered splatbook just to gain a surprise round, I'll take 10 levels in a crappy PrC just to DO SOMETHING in the surprise round.

Getting on to the list of issues...

I didn't realize finding him was the biggest problem.  But maybe pumping up gather info and talking to his familiar or something would do the trick.  The character has the skill points to spare, after all.

I assumed darkstalker would block mindsight, but it seems it doesn't (whoops).  Anyone have a way to been mindsight as a non-caster? 

Can you give a justification for mind blank stopping a mundane method to make somebody like you?  The only thing I'm seeing is if diplomacy is considered a mind-affecting effect, which is a stretch.  Even if there is some weird epic level rule about fanatic, we only really need friendly or helpful here anyhow.  And like I mentioned, I'm assuming diplomacy works for the challenge, because it pisses me off that a viable method is make ineligible simply by the arbitrary qualification that the characters have a player representing them at the table. 

Phaedrus already took care of the contingency argument, though to be fair even if he had 20 contingencies, as long as he loves the character, why would he use them?

The build as presented wasn't immune to poison.  It could probably GET poison immunity, though turning into an undead, etc. wouldn't work, since then he wouldn't be a dire turtle, which is apparently the KEY to victory in D&D.

And the race is Half-Elf.  Which is really a crappy race as well, but it's not quite drow.  And somehow the thought of a half-elf even coming close to beating Mr. Giant Terrapin makes me kinda happy.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #83 on: March 13, 2009, 06:07:56 PM »
Epic Diplomacy rules, from the SRD:
Quote
Fanatic
Treat the fanatic attitude as a mind-affecting enchantment effect for purposes of immunity
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Akalsaris

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #84 on: March 13, 2009, 06:15:02 PM »
Good to know :)

altpersona

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #85 on: March 13, 2009, 07:04:53 PM »
2 ways to win.

1. the lover death trick. the one where you cause a commoner to 'love' the target... might require being a caster to pull off, i dont recall the details atm.

2. candle of invocation > gate > summon single > cut deal > order flowers for funeral.


i know neither of these are exactly in the spirit of the challenge, and neither are of course perfect... and may not be legal... so ya, know... ymmv...
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #86 on: March 13, 2009, 08:01:52 PM »
2 ways to win.

1. the lover death trick. the one where you cause a commoner to 'love' the target... might require being a caster to pull off, i dont recall the details atm.
I don't remember Love's Pain doing all that much damage per casting. The wizard might figure out who you are, and come kill you before you could take him out like this. Also, he'd have probably foreseen part of this plot a week ahead of time, and have the necessary spells prepared to deal with it, thanks to Contact Other Plane.
Quote
2. candle of invocation > gate > summon single > cut deal > order flowers for funeral.
What exactly can you Gate that he can't Gate to beat your Gate?  :smirk You could do some kind of chain binding trick to get infinite wishes, and become Pun-Pun or something, but so could the wizard, if we're going down that road.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Ithamar

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #87 on: March 13, 2009, 08:56:13 PM »
Wow, I just found this little gem that may be just what we need to kill this mean ol' wizard!

Quote from: Monster Manual V, pg 67
A Vecna-blooded creature gains immunity to all divination spells cast against it or cast to learn information about it.  Such divination fails to reveal any information. The Vecnablooded creature immediately learns the name, appearance, and location of the caster who attempted the divination.

For +1 LA, this might be of invaluable use in this little challenge.  Thoughts?
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altpersona

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #88 on: March 13, 2009, 09:01:10 PM »
just have em godly, well demonly smited....  

its not that he cant do it also, but he has to get to you first...

and ya, both side have to agree not to go all pun pun on each other... which is odd because neither side actually agrees to anything.

The goal of power is power. - idk
We are not descended from fearful men. - Murrow

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Anim-manga sux.


Akalsaris

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #89 on: March 13, 2009, 09:16:01 PM »
Wow, I just found this little gem that may be just what we need to kill this mean ol' wizard!

Quote from: Monster Manual V, pg 67
A Vecna-blooded creature gains immunity to all divination spells cast against it or cast to learn information about it.  Such divination fails to reveal any information. The Vecnablooded creature immediately learns the name, appearance, and location of the caster who attempted the divination.

For +1 LA, this might be of invaluable use in this little challenge.  Thoughts?

That's a nice find Ithamar :) 

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #90 on: March 13, 2009, 09:22:58 PM »
just have em godly, well demonly smited....  

its not that he cant do it also, but he has to get to you first...
He doesn't even have to do it first. I'm just saying that for anything you can summon (34 HD), he can summon something even nastier (2x his caster level, including boosts from magic items and stuff). So unless there is some 34 HD monster that can more easily kill the wizard than a 20th level character, this trick gets you nowhere. Now, you could technically call a 34th level half-celestial wizard to kill this wizard, but that's kind of just proving the point of the thread in the first place. ;)
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

juton

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #91 on: March 14, 2009, 01:36:18 AM »
Wow, I just found this little gem that may be just what we need to kill this mean ol' wizard!

Quote from: Monster Manual V, pg 67
A Vecna-blooded creature gains immunity to all divination spells cast against it or cast to learn information about it.  Such divination fails to reveal any information. The Vecnablooded creature immediately learns the name, appearance, and location of the caster who attempted the divination.

For +1 LA, this might be of invaluable use in this little challenge.  Thoughts?

That's a great find Ithamar! It only applies to niche builds because it requires you to be evil, and you need to be able to cast 2nd level spells. But definitely the best level that someone could buy off I think.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #92 on: March 14, 2009, 01:45:44 AM »
Yeah, that is very nice. Say "buy buy" to most of the Contact Other Plane shenanigans.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #93 on: March 14, 2009, 01:58:53 AM »
Yeah, that is very nice. Say "buy buy" to most of the Contact Other Plane shenanigans.

Does asking what spells are optimal count as asking against the vecna-blooded character?

I think not.
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ErhnamDJ

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #94 on: March 14, 2009, 02:14:59 AM »

Anyway, wouldn't it be funny if we could manage to give the blooded person a deity's name? :)

Ithamar

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #95 on: March 14, 2009, 02:46:25 AM »
Quote from: Juton
That's a great find Ithamar! It only applies to niche builds because it requires you to be evil, and you need to be able to cast 2nd level spells. But definitely the best level that someone could buy off I think.

Would maybe just Duskblade with Precocious Apprentice qualify to take the template perhaps?  Definitely not an overly-magic build if that is your 1 and only casting level / class.  Once divinations are completely blocked, a few more options are opened up.

Quote from: Mad Linguist
Does asking what spells are optimal count as asking against the vecna-blooded character?

I think not.
True, but Contact Other Plane gives you one word answers.  Are you going to list every single possible spell in your spellbook and ask "Should I prepare X?"  Or is it more likely you'd ask something like "Will I be attacked this week?"  Unless the wizard somehow has metagame knowledge that a Vecna-blooded individual is gunning for him, he wouldn't necessarily know to specifically tailor his inquiries that way.
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ReaderOfPosts

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #96 on: March 14, 2009, 02:49:26 AM »
I'm playing around with the idea of a Seer 8/ Slayer 10/ Warblade 2 . Cleaving the first two should be simple, with Metafaculty+Hypercognition to find them, and a contingent burrowing power/null psionics field + greater insightful strike with a Thinaun weapon to kill them in one hit once in the antimagic field.

The final build might be doable if you can utilize hypercognition to deduce when the forbiddance is being dropped and get in with Anticipatory Strike/ Contingent Temporal Acceleration.

Of course, there are still problems. Even though the burrowing power gets through the pointy wizard hat, it still makes it hard to stab before the elder titan can slaughter us (Also, the hat's hardness can be trivially increased, though the psicraft can probably be pumped to the point of negating that). This might be bypassable by clever setup of actions (I'm currently thinking of using a contingent Null Psionics field to end a dream travel, which pops our seer next to the wizard and lets us attack him with a readied action maybe before the hat enlarges? Not entirely sure this works.) Also, Psionic Mind Blank doesn't protect as thoroughly from divinations, so he can be predicted.

And of course, even if this all works, it's not all that great to kill a Tier 1 wizard with a Tier 2 psion, though so far we get the bonus points for not relying on magic items.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #97 on: March 14, 2009, 03:00:20 AM »
Quote from: Mad Linguist
Does asking what spells are optimal count as asking against the vecna-blooded character?

I think not.
True, but Contact Other Plane gives you one word answers.  Are you going to list every single possible spell in your spellbook and ask "Should I prepare X?"  Or is it more likely you'd ask something like "Will I be attacked this week?"  Unless the wizard somehow has metagame knowledge that a Vecna-blooded individual is gunning for him, he wouldn't necessarily know to specifically tailor his inquiries that way.

You just make a numbered list.  It's an extremely obvious tactic.  Why try to guess what you need when you can just know.
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jameswilliamogle

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #98 on: March 14, 2009, 07:25:27 AM »
You just make a numbered list.  It's an extremely obvious tactic.  Why try to guess what you need when you can just know.
Of course, the DM has to agree to it, but I think its valid for the sake of the various threads.

The Vecna-blooded template ability is the same as Mindblank in effect (ie, blocks Contact Other Plane questions, True Sight, etc). 

One point I tried to make earlier, which I think is a reasonable assumption: the Wizard can't get knowledge w.r.t. the enemy if the enemy has Mindblank.  I think this is reasonable (assuming the Wizard and his enemy have never met and have nothing in common).

If the Wizard rewords the question to ask about information w.r.t. himself, then he can't have Mindblank up, either.  At the same time, he'd be vulnerable to a lot of the tricks during the casting of Contact Other Plane (10 minutes to land a Bluff or Intimidate). 

The attacker also has only this time frame to get information about the Wizard, too, which can be expensive (since the enemy has to cast divinations continuously just to find out when the Wizard doesn't have Mindblank up; if there's another way, lets discuss it). 

Even then, theres spells to mess with it, which haven't really been mentioned yet (isn't there an anticipate scrying spell?  what else could the Wizard use to foil information gathering outside of Mindblank?).

ErhnamDJ

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #99 on: March 14, 2009, 09:10:39 AM »
what else could the Wizard use to foil information gathering outside of Mindblank?

The Inscriptions of Vacancy (Stronghold Builder's Guide, Page 79) gives everyone in a room immunity to scrying.

The Inscriptions of Concealment (Page 78) protect the objects in a room from all divinations, but don't work on living creatures inside the room (Necropolitan, anyone?).

Stronghold Builder's Guide provides what defenses the paranoid (read: alive) high level wizard seeks. :)