Author Topic: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster  (Read 84699 times)

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juton

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #60 on: March 12, 2009, 05:06:17 PM »
OK, so a Wizard has this going for them:
  • Shapechange into a Diretortoise
  • Legacy Weapon of Mindblank and Cunning
  • Wizard spells, including spontaneous divination
Lets say the also tack on:
  • Persistant Trueseeing
  • Craft Contingent Spell

This is clearly a purpose built build. I don't think even a generic well made Cleric or Druid could take it down with any reliability. Maybe a moderately optimized party could. That leaves the heaviest hitters, Wizards and Artificers. Is there any one build that could reliable (~50%) take down this type of Wizard?

Is there anything at all, excluding Pun-Pun or Epic Characters that can take this down? How would they do it?

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #61 on: March 12, 2009, 06:57:26 PM »
Something that could cast a Disjunction (or Chained Greater Dispel, or Shapechange for an Antimagic beholder eye ray, etc) at the same time as readying to counterspell the wizard's Timestop/Celerity. So basically... another wizard, specialized in killing paranoid wizards. :D
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #62 on: March 12, 2009, 08:00:16 PM »
The Shapechange should be persistent, too, just for clarity, using the falls.

I'm starting to think that True Seeing can't penetrate Mindblanked creatures, for the same reasoning as the Foresight...

Mindblank will foil a Contact Other Plane (the Wizard has to ask questions about themselves, while not under Mindblank, for answers, if the attacker is under Mindblank)...  So, there's an "in" there, sort of...  The anti-caster can use Contact Other Plane to see when the Wizard's casting it, and attack then using the InstaRage (any "cannot respond" answers will mean the Wizard is EDIT: under Mindblank)... 

Its still tough, though.

Cunning:
Quote
Cunning (Su): At 13th level and higher, you are never considered flat-footed.
How do these effects work with others that make one flat-footed?  Also, the item w/ cunning requires a power point reserve.  I'm not familiar w/ the book, though, so if this isn't the case, can someone direct me to the rules regarding it?

Mind Blank:
Quote
Mind Blank (Su): While you are holding, wearing, or wielding the item, your mind is protected from mental and emotional tampering, as if continually affected by the mind blank spell.

So, the Mind Blank item is the same as the spell, but the Cunning ability is better than Foresight in that it won't get cancelled, at least, under Mind Blank. (nobody put up the abilities, so thought I would for clarity for anyone else.)
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 08:13:49 PM by jameswilliamogle »

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #63 on: March 12, 2009, 08:04:53 PM »
The Shapechange should be persistent, too.
Nah. It lasts all day with the Rainbow Falls location if you just Extend it.
Quote
I'm starting to think that True Seeing can't penetrate Mindblanked creatures, for the same reasoning as the Foresight... and will foil a Contact Other Plane...  So, there's an "in" there, sort of...  The anti-caster can use Contact Other Plane to see when the Wizard's casting it, and attack then using the InstaRage.  Its still tough, though.
I'd imagine he'd be in a pretty much unassailable location, while doing that. He could also cast it every 6 days, so he knows what's going to happen on the day he casts it, also...

Quote
Cunning:
Quote
Cunning (Su): At 13th level and higher, you are never considered flat-footed.
How do these effects work with others that make one flat-footed?  Also, the item w/ cunning requires a power point reserve.  I'm not familiar w/ the book, though, so if this isn't the case, can someone direct me to the rules regarding it?
You can make your own items using the rules in the book. Not every item with Cunning will require a PP reserve.

Quote
Mind Blank:
Quote
Mind Blank (Su): While you are holding, wearing, or wielding the item, your mind is protected from mental and emotional tampering, as if continually affected by the mind blank spell.

So, the Mind Blank item is the same as the spell, but the Cunning ability is better than Foresight in that it won't get cancelled, at least, under Mind Blank. (nobody put up the abilities, so thought I would for clarity for anyone else.)
Heck, the way that's written, I'm not sure it would protect you from Divinations. So for our purposes, it might actually be better than the Mind Blank spell (you could still use Foresight, etc).
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #64 on: March 12, 2009, 08:18:31 PM »
Nah. It lasts all day with the Rainbow Falls location if you just Extend it.
Yes, thats what I meant; should be clarified in the list.
Quote
I'd imagine he'd be in a pretty much unassailable location, while doing that. He could also cast it every 6 days, so he knows what's going to happen on the day he casts it, also...
Then, the unassailability needs to be addressed, too (Ethereal Mindblanked creatures can get to it, w/o force effects, which could be MDJ'd or Diss'd from the Ethereal).

Quote
You can make your own items using the rules in the book. Not every item with Cunning will require a PP reserve.
k, thanks, i didn't know.  That still takes DM fiat (for the specific custom item), but I accept it.

Quote
Heck, the way that's written, I'm not sure it would protect you from Divinations. So for our purposes, it might actually be better than the Mind Blank spell (you could still use Foresight, etc).
It says "as if continually affected by the mind blank spell", so I think you have to use the full mind blank text.  But, maybe (I don't think its a sound stance, though).

Anyways, thanks for the comments/clarifications!  Its been hard being only one of two supporters of the anti-caster builds...

EDIT: removed some excessive quotings.

Also, still not sure about "your opponent is flat-footed" vs. "you are never flat-footed" effects...
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 08:23:44 PM by jameswilliamogle »

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #65 on: March 12, 2009, 09:24:40 PM »
Then, the unassailability needs to be addressed, too (Ethereal Mindblanked creatures can get to it, w/o force effects, which could be MDJ'd or Diss'd from the Ethereal).
It is in my build. Basically, only a force dragon or someone who gates one could get to my wizard's demiplane. (And I shouldn't even give that away... because now someone will probably use it. :P)
Quote
Also, still not sure about "your opponent is flat-footed" vs. "you are never flat-footed" effects...
I definitely think "never flat-footed" trumps anything that makes you flat-footed, always.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #66 on: March 12, 2009, 10:10:43 PM »
It is in my build. Basically, only a force dragon or someone who gates one could get to my wizard's demiplane. (And I shouldn't even give that away... because now someone will probably use it. :P)
Oh, don't think about it that way!  I'm looking at this whole thing as a refinement excercise.  Someone puts up a specific Wizard trick, I look for ways to get past it, then repeat.


Quote
I definitely think "never flat-footed" trumps anything that makes you flat-footed, always.
Hrm... well, if its magical in origin...  there is this:
Quote
But, no such text exists for Su, Ex, or Sp (of which I'm aware, though Sp probably follows these rules).  This could act as a precedent for what to do (this part feels like FILO from MtG, even though MtG's targeting rules don't apply in DnD).
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 10:13:21 PM by jameswilliamogle »

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #67 on: March 12, 2009, 10:47:01 PM »
I don't think it works that way. Defenses usually trump offenses in D&D. The text you're quoting is talking about something like if you have a +4 Enhancement bonus to Strength and something gives you a -4 penalty to strength. They both "apply", leaving you with your base strength.

If something says it makes you immune to something, then you're immune to everything that causes that, except things that say specifically that they overcome immunity, like Searing Spell doing half damage to fire immune creatures. Otherwise you'd have to have this argument every time someone tried to use a Mind Affecting spell on someone with a Mind Blank.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 10:55:32 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #68 on: March 12, 2009, 10:54:00 PM »
Right, but never flat-footed effects don't use that immune keyword.

The whole thing is a bit circular/argumentative, though, so I'll drop it.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 10:55:55 PM by jameswilliamogle »

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #69 on: March 12, 2009, 10:57:33 PM »
I do agree about Mind Blank trumping True Seeing for some effects, though. When I used to DM, I'd let True Seeing see through Glamers and the like on someone with a Mind Blank, but you couldn't use it to see their aura (divine version), or see their true form if they're Polymorphed or otherwise physically changed.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #70 on: March 12, 2009, 11:03:27 PM »
...I'd let True Seeing see through Glamers and the like on someone with a Mind Blank...
So, in other words, that it can see through magical effects on the creature, but nothing intrinsic about the creature (including physical form changes)?  That makes sense (I think).  So, it wouldn't see an ethereal creature, which is the main thing I was trying to use.

EDIT: reading over your build; very strong.  On the Forbiddance spell - the ethereal shapechange-equipped binder can get in through the same hole as the familiar - go to edge of the spell, then "form of pseudodragon", then sneak in, take the damage, then Karsus's Dispelling Touch, Acerak to get past the zombie (Hide from Undead - this part would be contested by a Will save - good one on the awakening).  So, there should be another effect to prevent etherealness, I think...  Uhm... where's Private Sanctum?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 11:15:11 PM by jameswilliamogle »

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #71 on: March 12, 2009, 11:15:10 PM »
...I'd let True Seeing see through Glamers and the like on someone with a Mind Blank...
So, in other words, that it can see through magical effects on the creature, but nothing intrinsic about the creature (including physical form changes)?  That makes sense (I think).  So, it wouldn't see an ethereal creature, which is the main thing I was trying to use.
Right. Because seeing into the creature is basically "divining information about them", while seeing through their glamers isn't, as the glamer isn't part of them.

I'm not saying that's RAW. That's just the way I ran it.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Akalsaris

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #72 on: March 13, 2009, 07:38:19 AM »
Here's a build to try beating the caster in a fairly mundane manner.  It should work for any version, assuming he can somehow sneak into the demiplane of awesome. 

Assumption: that Diplomacy will work on the opponent.  Because this is the kind of build I'd use to kill off a BBEG, not another PC.

Plan:
0. sneak over to him with darkstalker, hide in plain sight, and anything else I can get going.
1. get an insanely high bluff check to use Wanderer's Diplomacy to bring the wizard to fanatic as a standard action.
2. Dread fang of lolth to act in a surprise round. 
3. legacy weapon for cunning ability - never flat-footed. 
4. get comfy with the wizard
5. use poisons and stab him in the back repeatedly.

How it should go down:
1. Sneak over to the wizard.  With dark creature and Darkstalker, along with max ranks in hide and move silently, odds are good that it will be easy to get close to the caster.  At some point Foresight will trigger, starting initiative.  The character is never flat-footed thanks to his legacy weapon, and always gets a full action in a surprise round thanks to the capstone of dread fang.  Even if the legacy weapon doesn't work, he still gets a standard action in a surprise round, enough to do his thing. 

Even without the legacy item the character still gets a standard action on a surprise round - enough to use Bluff as a standard action to convince the wizard to be his fanatical follower for the next minute.  His bluff check should be incredibly high, with motivate charisma from marshal and about 2/3rds of his WBL spent on boosting the check.  The rest of WBL goes into making some ridiculously deadly poisons, a belt of battle, masterwork handcuffs, and some boosts to hide/move silently.

Then he talks the wizard into getting naked for bondage sex, binds him, gags him, and stabs him full of colossal spider venom. 

Build:
Dark Half-Drow Rogue 4/Barbarian 2/Dread Fang of Lolth 10/Exemplar 2/Marshal 1

Class variants:
Barbarian: trades rage for favored enemy (UA).  Trades fast movement for pounce (CC) and uncanny dodge for improved trip (UA) as well - because I can.

Feats:
1st: Skill Focus (Bluff)
3rd: Darkstalker
6th: Least Legacy
9th: Wanderer's Diplomacy
12th: Lesser Legacy
15th: Open
18th: Open

Put skills into: hide, move silently, craft (poison), bluff, diplomacy, UMD. 

How it comes together: rogue fulfills the main prereqs for dread fang, while barbarian gets the BAB +5 done.  Exemplar is used to get skill mastery in all of these skills, and to rebuild bluff ranks after the levels in Dread Fang and Barbarian.  Marshal is for motivate charisma and gets an exp penalty, but is taken at 20th, so who cares?

Favored enemy: Animals. Take THAT, Dire tortoise!

Equipment: a weapon with the Cunning ability, plus poisons.  Hell, Bracers of AMF might even work out, though then it triggers crazy hat contingencies and stuff, so why bother?

ErhnamDJ

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #73 on: March 13, 2009, 10:35:20 AM »

Some of the problems with that:

You still have not discovered a way to find the wizard. This is the important part.

He has Mindsight. He sees you coming.

He is immune to being turned fanatic (Mind Blank).

The wizard has twenty-some off Contingency spells.

He is immune to poison.

And, to top it all off, you took ten levels of a crappy prestige class and the rogue levels needed to enter. Also, you're a drow.

Thanks for playing.

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #74 on: March 13, 2009, 10:43:12 AM »
Does Mindsight trump Darkstalker?  (Why?)

Does Mindblank prevent that? (We talked about this in the Intimidate vs. Mindblank debacle; nm.)

AhrenElessedil

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #75 on: March 13, 2009, 12:23:06 PM »
Does Diplomacy works?

*points at Half-Elf diplomancer*

bitznarf

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #76 on: March 13, 2009, 12:31:15 PM »
We agreed earlier that both the caster and the anti-caster would be considered PCs.

ErhnamDJ

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #77 on: March 13, 2009, 01:22:53 PM »
Does Mindsight trump Darkstalker?  (Why?)

Darkstalker makes no mention of Mindsight, so yes.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #78 on: March 13, 2009, 01:36:56 PM »
You still have not discovered a way to find the wizard. This is the important part.

He has Mindsight. He sees you coming.

He is immune to being turned fanatic (Mind Blank).
This is true, for at least the builds I posted. He might be able to convert my familiar, though.  :D I didn't list Mind Blank for it (I thought it might interfere with its Mindsight).
Quote
The wizard has twenty-some off Contingency spells.
None of the builds posted used Craft Contingent Spell. So at most they have two, and we listed those. It's just too much of a pain in the ass to deal with. (40 contingencies for the wizard and his familiar + 20 for the challenger... forget that...)

Quote
He is immune to poison.
Neither had anything for this down, but Contact Other Plane should take care of that...
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

ErhnamDJ

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #79 on: March 13, 2009, 02:12:11 PM »

Ugh, you guys are still using those builds.  :lmao