Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster

[Nachofan99]

Mad Linguist, I understand that line of argument i.e. the target line of Foresight is "Personal" so the *spell* never targets the person with Mindblank.

I still don't think Foresight works, allow me to propose why and feel free to correct me if I'm way off.

Mindblank: "This spell protects against all mind-effecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects."

"Information gathering" and "effects" are pretty poorly defined by the rules so I can understand why there would be a lot of disagreement on what exactly they mean.

I take the first clause, protection from divination spells, to be the clause I believe you are saying and I *agree* with you in that exact regard; you are immune to divination spells that target you if you have Mindblank up.  This I do not argue and I don't think it could be any more clear cut.

However...

I take the second clause, protection from "Information Gathering" and "divination EFFECTS", to be the clause that makes Mindblank trump CoP and Foresight.

CoP doesn't target you, but the EFFECT of CoP is information gathering, which I read you to be protected from via Mindblank. 

Foresight does not target someone with Mindblank but Foresight is a divination spell that provides bonuses based on an information gathering effect (we can call it the "6th sense" that the text refers to it as or simply the fact that as a divination spell it's hard to say anything it does is NOT somehow a divination effect); I read someone to be "protected" from this effect as well if they have Mindblank.

We can agree to disagree if you can see that the way I read it is one possible interpretation which you merely do not agree with.  However, if my logic is entirely flawed please feel free to correct me.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

You just be a little more indirect, then.  It's possible to construct questions such that getting a response of "no information" is enough to know what you need to know.

[Nachofan99]

Alright so, at face value, my arguments aren't totally off.  I like that.

I have included a bit more on CoP in a spoiler because I do not want this to turn back into a CoP discussion.

[spoiler] When I read 'protection from information gathering' I interpret that to mean CoP will never in any way, shape, or form, help you against a Mindblanked opponent, even if you cleverly design a CoP engine to look for the "holes" in your perfect information network. 

Once again I know that "information gathering" is a very poorly worded phrase and as far as I can tell completely devoid of rules terminology but that is what we have to work with. 

We could drop that and go back to "effect".  If CoP helps you against someone with Mindblank in any way (even if there is no "information gathering"), I still think that is an "effect" that Mindblank is supposed to "protect" you against.[/spoiler]

[The_Mad_Linguist]

There's the question as to whether the second sentence is a modifier upon the first. 

That said, there's also

Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all.

"If I were to scry on "John Johnson", could it possibly work?"  is a valid question, as is "what is the elemental composition of the object located at the coordinates 0,1.5,0?", or "what is the average temperature of the 1''1''1'' cube centered on at 0,1,0

Now, let's say I get Contact Other Plane to spit out a nice 3d temperature plot of the surrounding mile.  If the mindblanked guy doesn't show up at all, I just look for the cube at absolute zero.  If he's at the average temperature, I look for an abnormally smooth region.  If the temperatures returned are the temperatures that would have been there if he stopped existing at the point mindblank started, I can do a time-based plot and compare the divergences.  Heck, I can have asked about the temperatures a month in advance, before you even cast mindblank, then do a -diff- and see where there's a suddenly increase or decrease in heat.

And I'm certainly not gathering information about Johnnie if I ask what spell would be best to cast in the first round, or how many koalas would be the best for making my new fur robe, or what have you.

[Endarire]

TML: It's at this point that I say, "Argh!  What sort of game are we playing here?"

[The_Mad_Linguist]

What, you think there isn't a huge overlap between CS majors and DnD players?

Dream on.

[Anklebite]

What, you think there isn't a huge overlap between CS majors and DnD players?

Dream on.

well, to be fair, some of us are just economists and/or chemists.

[Nachofan99]

TML, a 4 dimensional map created by CoP sounds an awful lot like "information gathering".  Neat trick though  


Even if CoP beats Mindblank (as I said I don't think it does but am willing to go with it anyways) I actually have a creative solution for countering that as well.  Really trying to get a few more random questions answered before I unveil the finished product, but, if I get even 10% of the same amount of backing with "creative interpretations" of the rules like spell casters do I think I can manage to do something.  For honest.

What does everyone say regarding the rules for Surprise Rounds in the Rules Compendium, namely, the sentence that says ONLY Standard and Move actions are allowed, Free actions contingent on the DM?

This means that Tortoise or Minotaur or Foresight don't let you take an action you cannot take, namely, an Immediate/Swift.

Once again, I understand that the NORMAL solution is as I wrote below but have you read the Surprise Round text in Rules Compendium?

1) Surprise makes you Flat-Footed
2) Flat-Footed cannot use Immediate Actions
3) Minotaur/Foresight make you Immune to Flat-Footed (Tortoise gets more complicated with the Surprise round so let's skip it for now)
4) Therefore since I am not Flat-Footed, I can use an Immediate Action because I can use an Immediate Action any time; even when it's not my turn.

However I am once again saying that in the Rules Compendium pg 71 says you can only use Standard/Move/Free actions during Surprise; Immediate Action/Swift Action/Full Round Actions whether Flat-Footed or not are not allowed in the Surprise Round period.

What say you all?  I am sure this is a Specific Trumps General situation, but I think the more specific situation is Surprise.

[Anklebite]

TML, a 4 dimensional map created by CoP sounds an awful lot like "information gathering".

that's the whole point. your interpretation of mind blank only prevents the gathering of information related to the target. by asking for the temperature surrounding the area, the wizard can deduce the location of the mind blanked opponent by the hole in the map.  basically, the sheer fact that mindblank stops info gathering allows the wizard to gather the information.   

TML is a bit too good at COP abuse. 

[The_Mad_Linguist]

And I'm asking how exactly it avoids "information gathering".  Any method by which it would conceal the target has to be detectable, by virtue of it changing the information regarding the target and only that information.  Unless you rule that anyone in the universe casting mindblank at any time in the past or future makes contact other plane never give any information, there's always going to be a way to get information at enough degrees of separation to not be covered by mindblank.

[juton]

However I am once again saying that in the Rules Compendium pg 71 says you can only use Standard/Move/Free actions during Surprise; Immediate Action/Swift Action/Full Round Actions whether Flat-Footed or not are not allowed in the Surprise Round period.

What say you all?  I am sure this is a Specific Trumps General situation, but I think the more specific situation is Surprise.

I like it, let's take it and run with it.

There is two ways I see to go with this : Either a Factotum abusing Cunning Surge to get a bunch of actions readied or beating the Wizard at initiative. Beating the Wizard at init is tricky, I don't know which way to go to give a build more flexibility.

[the_shadowmind]

TML, a 4 dimensional map created by CoP sounds an awful lot like "information gathering".

that's the whole point. your interpretation of mind blank only prevents the gathering of information related to the target. by asking for the temperature surrounding the area, the wizard can deduce the location of the mind blanked opponent by the hole in the map.  basically, the sheer fact that mindblank stops info gathering allows the wizard to gather the information.  

TML is a bit too good at COP abuse.  

Can't then COP begotten around by being in an area with a large amount of mindblanked creatures?

[Anklebite]

TML, a 4 dimensional map created by CoP sounds an awful lot like "information gathering".

that's the whole point. your interpretation of mind blank only prevents the gathering of information related to the target. by asking for the temperature surrounding the area, the wizard can deduce the location of the mind blanked opponent by the hole in the map.  basically, the sheer fact that mindblank stops info gathering allows the wizard to gather the information.  

TML is a bit too good at COP abuse.  

Can't then COP begotten around by being in an area with a large amount of mindblanked creatures?

only the precise locations of the mindblanked. besides, most COP questions ask questions about what will happen to the caster.

[Nachofan99]

TML, I believe your quote only strengthens my position.

Everyone can look at "Restricted Actions" pg. 7 Rules Compendium and compare to pg. 71 Rules Compendium.

allowed swift, immediate, and free actions.

That gigantic "allowed" pops right out at me when I read it. 

From the Rules Compendium pg. 71

They're restricted to a single standard action or move action during the surprise round.  They can also take free actions during the surprise round, at the DM's discretion.

As I read it, the conditions of Surprise *DENIES* you the use of Swift/Immediate/Full-Round Actions as possible actions, only *allowing* Standard/Move or Free actions at DM's discretion.

I can see the other side.  You're probably going to say that when it says "Restricted" under the Surprise rules, that means GOTO 10: Restricted Activity - Restricted Activity says you can use Swift/Immediate/Free.  However, I'm positive that the Surprise rules are more specific and the Restricted Activity rules are more general and the Surprise rules list Standard/Move and Free actions only.

I like it, let's take it and run with it.

There is two ways I see to go with this : Either a Factotum abusing Cunning Surge to get a bunch of actions readied or beating the Wizard at initiative. Beating the Wizard at init is tricky, I don't know which way to go to give a build more flexibility.

Unfortunately Juton, you can only have one readied action at a time; I've thought of that route a while ago.  And unfortunately, if my reading is correct regarding surprise then there is no way to gain/utilize extra actions during surprise because it essentially says you can't i.e. you are *RESTRICTED*.  Fortunately, you can do a whole *hell of a lot* with one Move Action.  More on that to come.  Beating a wizard at initiative is surprisingly easy; some of their so-called greatest strengths are actually their worst enemies here.  More on that later as well.  Or if you'd like to collaborate, I can share some "super secret strategies" with you via PM as I iron my build out.




More stuff about CoP that I am keeping here because I really don't want this thread to go back that way...

[spoiler]Once again TML, the 4d mapping is a neat solution.  I'm totally nerding out about it right now.

However, if we go with my very open and much more "generous" interpretation of Mindblank you're still "protected" from CoP no matter how it is used.

Since "protected" is ambiguous, I'm sure we can include that to mean that yes, the entire world you are on has its temperatures "smoothed out" to make sure that you are in no way revealed by being "not revealed".  I read Mindblank to make CoP give you the 4d map of what the world would have been like had the Mindblanked character not been there at all - and not simply being there "cloaked".  Can an 8th level spell do that?  I don't know but considering CoP is a 5th level spell, I'm willing to "believe" that Mindblank can do practically anything when it comes to Divination spells and effects if it is "protecting" you.

I see the angle you are approaching it from, I believe.  You're using the scrying clause to say "Well the spell foils scrying by making the attempt FAIL.  Gee, I wonder what is in that place that I scryed that would make my attempt fail?  Probably someone with Mindblank.  Now I have useful information I can use."

I mean I like that.  Use the spell description itself to find it's worst weakness, namely, that it makes scrying fail.  But when I read that you are "protected" by Mindblank, I still see that it will do everything in its power to stop information gathering.  Sure the scrye would fail, but why? You hit lead, at least, that's what Mindblank has you believe.  What if the enemy that you somehow know is out there (even though you don't know according to my reading of Mindblank) is on another planet, or another plane?  You don't have enough CoPs to check everywhere in the multiverse.

I guess you could use the scrying line under Mindblank to make a 4d representation of every time-indexed 5ft. square in the entire multiverse "If I scryed the planet which squares would fail?" and so on and so on until you had a perfect 4d scrying map of every square at every time.  For Scrying you need to have some sort of "connection" to a creature you know nothing about to scrye on it.  That's well into the realm of DM and Player fiat.  CoP could also give you all kinds of answers that just are not useful during your search and every time you hit some lead or some other mundane blocker that costs you another question, or at least a tweak to your algorithm.

I like the creativity but you should come to the dark side! 

[/spoiler]

[The_Mad_Linguist]

But mindblank does jack shit before you've actually cast it.  So I make a map of the future as well, and compare.

"Hmm, it looks like these guys who were in my picture of the future just vanished.  Wonder if they have mindblank or something."


Can you list any other circumstances where you'd have restricted actions?  Surprise rounds are the big one. 

I believe the "allowed" is there because whether or not you get a swift action depends upon whether or not you've spent an immediate in the previous turn.  Because they can't gaurantee it.

[Havok4]

From the Rules Compendium pg. 71

They're restricted to a single standard action or move action during the surprise round.  They can also take free actions during the surprise round, at the DM's discretion.

As I read it, the conditions of Surprise *DENIES* you the use of Swift/Immediate/Full-Round Actions as possible actions, only *allowing* Standard/Move or Free actions at DM's discretion.

I can see the other side.  You're probably going to say that when it says "Restricted" under the Surprise rules, that means GOTO 10: Restricted Activity - Restricted Activity says you can use Swift/Immediate/Free.  However, I'm positive that the Surprise rules are more specific and the Restricted Activity rules are more general and the Surprise rules list Standard/Move and Free actions only.

You can take a swift action whenever you can take a free action but it is limited to one per round. And you can take an intimidate action whenever you could take a swift action even when it is on another creature's turn and you are not flat footed. So yes you can use swift and immediate actions.

[Nachofan99]

Havok, you're listing general cases.  I'm listing a specific case.  Specific > General

TML, when you're under the effects of the Slow spell, if you're a Zombie, if you're Staggered...there are more than that as well.  Just gave you 3 right off the top of my head.

More about CoP

[spoiler]Ha ha ha! Bravo, Bravo! 

Nerding out twice as hard with that one.

Having a map of all time, past and future, all space, and all planes of existence is definitely in the incredibly TO segment of wizardry.  I'm not saying it's impossible (in fact I'm pretty much totally agreeing with you), but if you're going that far you might as well be Pun-Pun.  Do you disagree?

[/spoiler]

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Point, but I think you'll notice that those conditions also state you only get a single action as well, and with your logic I believe there aren't any restrictions that would actually qualify under the "restricted actions" section of the rule compendium.

A slowed creature can take only a single move action or standard action each turn, but not both (nor may it take full-round actions).

Single Actions Only (Ex)

Zombies have poor reflexes and can perform only a single move action or attack action each round. A zombie can move up to its speed and attack in the same round, but only if it attempts a charge.

Staggered

A character whose nonlethal damage exactly equals his current hit points is staggered. A staggered character may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can she take full-round actions).

So by your logic those wouldn't allow swift actions either.


Also, from the SRD

The Surprise Round

If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. Any combatants aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.

[Nachofan99]

I don't contest that Free Actions can be taken during the Surprise round.  Rules Compendium and SRD says they can be involved.  But they don't necessarily say you can take Swift/Immediate.

I also don't have a problem with denying Swift/Immediate actions to people who are staggered/slowed/zombied because all of those are conditions that limit actions as a function of what they are; status effects that limit your actions.

I do see your point, however, that the text on "Restricted Actions" doesn't seem to have much relevance if there are (seemingly) no cases where it applies.  Given enough time, I could probably dig around.  As I said I had *3* additional cases of "Restricted Actions" off the top of my head using Core only.

The point is, where the text is iffy or contradictory, specific trumps general.  The general case is "Restricted Actions".  The much more specific cases are "Staggered/Slow/Zombie/Surprise."  I'll see if I can dig anything up.

Besides that, I'm not just BLATANTLY wrong or being incredibly OBTUSE, right?  Not trying to be a troll.  I admit that lots of stuff is subject to interpretation and I have no problem if someone else interprets something differently than me so long as they support their interpretation. 

I mean in most of the examples presented so far, I think I see both sides.  But I have to be on the side of whatever helps my non-wizard have a better shot!

[juton]

It makes sense that if you are suffering a condition which limits the actions you have available, the actions you have available are limited. I'm trying to think how this would actually play out in a real game, I can see either interpretation being allowed.