Author Topic: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster  (Read 84698 times)

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juton

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2009, 12:42:40 AM »
There are at least 2 ways to do them as a standard action with no penalty. Diplomacy would probably work, but makes me think we should come up with terms of victory.

How about if you can get the Wizard's spellbook off of him, or if you destroy it and the Wizard. Every Wizard I've ever seen guards his spell book fastidiously.

BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2009, 07:09:55 AM »
There are at least 2 ways to do them as a standard action with no penalty. Diplomacy would probably work, but makes me think we should come up with terms of victory.

How about if you can get the Wizard's spellbook off of him, or if you destroy it and the Wizard. Every Wizard I've ever seen guards his spell book fastidiously.
And has plenty of backups...
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juton

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2009, 09:57:45 AM »
And has plenty of backups...
Even with spamming Secret Page it could take days to make another copy. Since Wizards are so paranoid they'd only do it themselves, not give it to a minion to do. Even with near infinite time it's still a chore to do.

I guess you could try and convince a Wizard to dismiss all his buffs and give up all his magical gear. Since he's acted he could Celerity himself away at any time after that though.

Tshern

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2009, 10:44:40 AM »
Not to mention diplomacy doesn't work on PCs. I think.

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jameswilliamogle

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #44 on: March 10, 2009, 12:39:58 PM »
Not to mention diplomacy doesn't work on PCs. I think.
Yeah, but is the caster an NPC or a PC?  The whole thing is too nebulous.

juton

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #45 on: March 10, 2009, 01:11:24 PM »
If you can beat a Wizard with diplomacy then I say go for it. Or if you have any other zany idea swing for the fences. I always like thinking of different ways to 'win' then just what is expected.
 

Tshern

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #46 on: March 10, 2009, 01:41:40 PM »
Not to mention diplomacy doesn't work on PCs. I think.
Yeah, but is the caster an NPC or a PC?  The whole thing is too nebulous.
Good point.

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bitznarf

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #47 on: March 10, 2009, 01:56:28 PM »
Not to mention diplomacy doesn't work on PCs. I think.
Yeah, but is the caster an NPC or a PC?  The whole thing is too nebulous.
I think we should assume that both the caster and the anti-caster are on the same footing - and I'm relatively sure that both have been using the PC WBL tables, not the NPC versions, which might help solve this conundrum.

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #48 on: March 10, 2009, 02:23:30 PM »
Not to mention diplomacy doesn't work on PCs. I think.
Yeah, but is the caster an NPC or a PC?  The whole thing is too nebulous.
I think we should assume that both the caster and the anti-caster are on the same footing - and I'm relatively sure that both have been using the PC WBL tables, not the NPC versions, which might help solve this conundrum.
So both are PCs. 

juton

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #49 on: March 12, 2009, 02:36:37 PM »
A different spin on my Bard build up thread:

Minotaur,  Lion's Pounce Barbarian 1, Fighter 2, Warhulk 10

Key feats:
Quickdraw
Improved Initiative
Versatile (Add Spellcraft and UMD to all class lists)
Destructive Rage

Key Magic Items:
Anti-Magic Torque
Scrolls of Celerity, Greater Celerity, Moment of Prescience, Sign
Anything else that buffs initiative

The trick is to ready an action to use a scroll to counter spell. The Minotaur causes the Wizard's Foresight to activate, the Wizard casts Celerity (possibly Greater Celerity), the Minotaur quickdraws the appropriate scroll and counterspells. Lets say the Minotaur has optimized his initiative enough to win initiative, as a free action he uses his AMF. The Hat drops, the Wizard doesn't have another swift/immediate action to use when the Hat comes down, the Minotaur rages and makes the strength check to punch a hole in the cone, letting the AMF in.

The Minotaur can also pick up the cone as a light load, I'm sure you could do something funny with that.

You could do basically the same trick with a Fighter 20, if you can make a build that can do 120+ points as a standard action (maybe as a full attack if you start closer to the Wizard).
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 03:09:29 PM by juton »

bitznarf

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #50 on: March 12, 2009, 02:46:23 PM »
The trick is to ready an action to use a scroll to counter spell. The Minotaur causes the Wizard's Foresight to activate, the Wizard casts Celerity (possibly Greater Celerity), the Minotaur quickdraws the appropriate scroll and counterspells.
I see 2 problems with this:
1: You can't ready actions outside of combat - that is what surprise rounds and initiative are for.
2: You can only ready one action, not a free and a standard.  You could perhaps pull this off with a readied greater dispel scroll at high CL, but the DC to pull this off will be at least 35, making such an attempt unlikely to succeed.

Now, if you were to instead use a staff with greater dispel/celerity/greater celerity in it there would be no need for the Quickdraw mess, and you can crank the CL with an appropriately optimized UMD check.  Doesn't solve the readying outside of combat part though.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #51 on: March 12, 2009, 02:50:11 PM »
The trick is to ready an action to use a scroll to counter spell. The Minotaur causes the Wizard's Foresight to activate, the Wizard casts Celerity (possibly Greater Celerity),
Why? He can cast that as an immediate action. Why would he cast it before initiative is even rolled? He should wait till the minotaur actually does something that threatens him, which means the minotaur has to both win initiative and use an action to even get the wizard to cast Celerity. If the wizard wins initiative, he just casts Time Stop and kills the minotaur.
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the Minotaur quickdraws the appropriate scroll and counterspells.
As part of a readied action to counterspell? He can't do that. All he can do is take the standard action to counterspell. You can't ready a standard action and a free action, can you?
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Lets say the Minotaur has optimized his initiative enough to win initiative, as a free action he uses his AMF.
How is he using AMF as a free action?

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The Minotaur can also pick up the cone as a light load, I'm sure you could do something funny with that.
I think you missed a digit on the weight of the cone. It weights 16 thousand pounds.


Edit: I see. You used the same contingency that I did, basically. The limitations on the number of Contingencies + immediate actions is a bit of a vulnerability, isn't it? I'd assumed originally that if that cone ever drops, the wizard could use Celerity, but if he's already used it, he'd possibly be screwed.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 02:57:02 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

juton

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #52 on: March 12, 2009, 03:09:07 PM »
The trick is to ready an action to use a scroll to counter spell. The Minotaur causes the Wizard's Foresight to activate, the Wizard casts Celerity (possibly Greater Celerity), the Minotaur quickdraws the appropriate scroll and counterspells.
I see 2 problems with this:
1: You can't ready actions outside of combat - that is what surprise rounds and initiative are for.
2: You can only ready one action, not a free and a standard.  You could perhaps pull this off with a readied greater dispel scroll at high CL, but the DC to pull this off will be at least 35, making such an attempt unlikely to succeed.

Now, if you were to instead use a staff with greater dispel/celerity/greater celerity in it there would be no need for the Quickdraw mess, and you can crank the CL with an appropriately optimized UMD check.  Doesn't solve the readying outside of combat part though.

1. That's a good point. My DM would say that the Minotaur has already started fighting and the Wizard is an unaware combatant. My DM's a prick so take that with a grain of salt.
2. You can ready a Standard, Move and Free action.


The trick is to ready an action to use a scroll to counter spell. The Minotaur causes the Wizard's Foresight to activate, the Wizard casts Celerity (possibly Greater Celerity),
Why? He can cast that as an immediate action. Why would he cast it before initiative is even rolled? He should wait till the minotaur actually does something that threatens him, which means the minotaur has to both win initiative and use an action to even get the wizard to cast Celerity. If the wizard wins initiative, he just casts Time Stop and kills the minotaur.

Ah, that is a problem. Thing is even if I use a free action I think the Wizard could interrupt it with Celerity. That's a wrinkle in my plans, I'll keep working on it.

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Quote
the Minotaur quickdraws the appropriate scroll and counterspells.
As part of a readied action to counterspell? He can't do that. All he can do is take the standard action to counterspell. You can't ready a standard action and a free action, can you?
Quote
Lets say the Minotaur has optimized his initiative enough to win initiative, as a free action he uses his AMF.
How is he using AMF as a free action?

I was under the impression that the AMF Torque was activated by a command word, you can speak as a free action. If an AMF Torque doesn't work this way they you can always make your own custom item that does using the rules in the DMG.

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The Minotaur can also pick up the cone as a light load, I'm sure you could do something funny with that.
I think you missed a digit on the weight of the cone. It weights 16 thousand pounds.


Edit: I see. You used the same contingency that I did, basically. The limitations on the number of Contingencies + immediate actions is a bit of a vulnerability, isn't it? I'd assumed originally that if that cone ever drops, the wizard could use Celerity, but if he's already used it, he'd possibly be screwed.

The Minotaur should have a strength rating of 56 before raging. His light load should be 19584 pnds EDIT: I meant to say Warhulk
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 03:12:44 PM by juton »

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #53 on: March 12, 2009, 03:17:06 PM »
Command Word requires a standard action. I didn't know what the exact build was, so I didn't know the minotaur's strength was so high. :p

The wizard by definition is not an unaware combatant, if he has Foresight going and knows he's going to be attacked from Contact Other Plane, I'd argue.

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You can ready a Standard, Move and or a Free action.
FTFY. Big difference. The minotaur could have a bunch of spells all on one scroll, which is already in his hand, though. No need to draw anything.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

juton

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #54 on: March 12, 2009, 03:31:24 PM »
Command Word requires a standard action. I didn't know what the exact build was, so I didn't know the minotaur's strength was so high. :p
I never knew that, that's a little disappointing.

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The wizard by definition is not an unaware combatant, if he has Foresight going and knows he's going to be attacked from Contact Other Plane, I'd argue.

He knows he's going to be attacked, but not necessarily by whom.

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Quote
You can ready a Standard, Move and or a Free action.
FTFY. Big difference. The minotaur could have a bunch of spells all on one scroll, which is already in his hand, though. No need to draw anything.
Good catch with having all the spells on one scroll. I've done a lot of logic at uni, to me OR would allow all prepositions to be true, like every type of action being readied.

Readying an Action lets you use that action up until your next turn. Which means you can use it after you roll intiative but before you act. But an immediate action can be used in a very thin slice of time, so theoretically a Wizard could use it between the Minotaur's turn is starting and his last round is ending.

If the Minotaur picks up Imperious Command+Instantaneous Rage he might be able to interrupt the Wizard's Celerity by Raging.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #55 on: March 12, 2009, 03:40:04 PM »
He knows he's going to be attacked, but not necessarily by whom.
Edit: After rereading the section on Unaware combatants, I see your point, and now see why the dire turtle is so damn important.  :p

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I've done a lot of logic at uni, to me OR would allow all prepositions to be true, like every type of action being readied.
It says you ready an action, and can take that action later. Not those actions. That means it is a single action, not a standard, move, and free action.
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If the Minotaur picks up Imperious Command+Instantaneous Rage he might be able to interrupt the Wizard's Celerity by Raging.
Which most people agreed wouldn't work if the wizard has a Mind Blank. Of course, then he also wouldn't have Foresight, according to James' logic (which I agree with), and so might be flat-footed if he doesn't take other measures to prevent that.


I agree now that the optimal wizard would run around as a dire tortoise, and have a Legacy item (or something else) that prevents flat-footedness. It's just not as cool to run around as a turtle as it is a minotaur...  :(
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 03:45:37 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

juton

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #56 on: March 12, 2009, 03:51:34 PM »
I know in my games even the most die-hard optimizer won't wander around as Diretortoise (too much table talk). For me it's a minor victory.

I'm kind of curious how a Diretortoise's suprise round works, since the Minotaur is aware of the Wizard. I'm AWFB but doesn't the text in the Tortoise's entry state that even if a creature is aware of the Tortoise it is flatfooted, but not that it doesn't get to roll initiative. Also a Minotaur can't be caught flat footed, but I don't think Imperious Command requires an immediate action anyways.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #57 on: March 12, 2009, 03:54:57 PM »
I think it says something like "even if opponents are aware of it, the dire tortoise always gets a surprise round", which is fine for a tortoise... but not for a 20th level wizard. The real tipping point is surprise rounds, and whether you get to act in them or not. It's probably not possible to make a build that is both never surprised (but that is what never flat-footed should do...) and always Mind-blanked, unless you're willing to walk around as a turtle...
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 03:59:20 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Ithamar

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #58 on: March 12, 2009, 04:15:05 PM »
Quote from: Sandstorm pg. 152
Lightning Strike (Ex):  A dire tortoise can lash out very rapdily.  On the first round of combat, it gets a surprise round regardless of whether it has been noticed.  A creature that notices the dire tortoise is still treated as flat-footed during this round.

This might help.  ;)
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jameswilliamogle

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #59 on: March 12, 2009, 04:57:49 PM »
I don't know what would trump what, Dire Tortoise ability or Minotaur never flat-footed.  It has to be one way or the other...

Minotaur could shapechange (or poly) into a Dire Torotoise, though, then it gets tricky...  On a related note...  Who goes first to position themselves whom when Dire Tortoises mate?